The Indigenous Australian thread

[Chronik Fatigue]

England was raped, pillaged & colonized by Vikings

Do you see the English begging Denmark for restitution? NO

Tell that to Harold Godwinson

8)

But really, it shows an incredibly shallow understanding of history and anthropology to try and compare the two cases. On one hand, you have two very similar cultures on similar technological trajectories who, after the subsequent invasion, were able to cohabitate and assimilate in a virtually seamless fashion. On the other, you have two separate cultures separated by tens-of-thousands of kilometres and hundreds-of-thousands of years, who developed along radically different trajectories and who hadn't been exposed to each others germs or weapons. To suggest that the level of devestation wreaked upon British culture is in anyway comparable to that faced by indigenous cultures is simply laughable. The Vikings never engaged in a campaign of annihilation against the British people.

 

[ValeTudo]

Replace British with Spanish and Amerindian, Russian and *, Anglo and Native American, ad nauseam

 

[Chronik Fatigue]

Yes. And everywhere you look at comparable situations then the devastation and dislocation is similar, which brings me to my prior point that the question we should be asking is what do we do about it. And if we look towards places where some advances have been made, ie. Canada, it has come through a healing process aided by things like national recognition of past crimes and recognition of the recognition of native title. We have cultivated a political landscape here in Aus over the last ten years that seeks to downplay or outright deny any past wrongdoing. In doing so we trivialise the issue, meaning that we never confront it thus never beginning the healing, and in turn we give rise to the type of blame-the-victim mentality being expressed by some in this thread.

 

[Chronik Fatigue]

I dont think any of us need to say sorry because we were not the ones that did it.

No, but we are still living off the profits from it, we are still morally culpable for our non-recognition of that fact. It's like the mirror image of the problems faced by blacks in this country, what makes us wealthy is the same as what makes them destitute. The land we stole is the basis for 99.9999% of the wealth we enjoy, the two things are inextricably linked.

 

[ValeTudo]

CF: Are you saying Australia has no concept of native title or restitution?

what .. the?

 

[swifty]

Ok then swifty, provide some sources of information showing the positives aspects of the stolen generation if i'm presenting too bias.

i didn't say there was a positive side too it, if you bothered to read my post instead of trying to pick an argument, you'da seen that.

 

[Chronik Fatigue]

CF: Are you saying Australia has no concept of native title or restitution?

what .. the?

Does the word 'extinguishment' mean anything to you?

We put the rights of a handful of multinational pastoral corporations above those of our indigenous inhabitants, effectively transferring hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of land held on free-title leases so that they are now owned outright by those corporations. It was done purely out of spite and political expediency, because there is no way native title would have put those pastoral businesses at risk in any way.

 

[Wacky]

we are still living off the profits from it, we are still morally culpable for our non-recognition of that fact. It's like the mirror image of the problems faced by blacks in this country, what makes us wealthy is the same as what makes them destitute. The land we stole is the basis for 99.9999% of the wealth we enjoy, the two things are inextricably linked.

Spot on.

 

[Zero the hero]

Yes. And everywhere you look at comparable situations then the devastation and dislocation is similar, which brings me to my prior point that the question we should be asking is what do we do about it. And if we look towards places where some advances have been made, ie. Canada, it has come through a healing process aided by things like national recognition of past crimes and recognition of the recognition of native title. We have cultivated a political landscape here in Aus over the last ten years that seeks to downplay or outright deny any past wrongdoing. In doing so we trivialise the issue, meaning that we never confront it thus never beginning the healing, and in turn we give rise to the type of blame-the-victim mentality being expressed by some in this thread.

Well put. What people don't seem to understand is that an apology to the Aborigines, recognizing their suffering and offering compensation to the victims-like, as mentioned, they’re in the process of doing in Canada to the victims of the Canadian Indian boarding school victims at the moment to the tune of 2 billion dollars-for what's been done to then isn't going to instantly fix the problem, but what it will do is begin the healing process for many of these people and hopefully the entire community. Indians I know back in Canada-some with parents and grandparents who were victims of the Indian boarding school system-greatly appreciated the gesture and see this as a very positive step towards a new beginning. The thing is that it’s not the compensation that’s most important to these people if you speak to them about it, but the recognition of the hell they’ve been through.

 

[mymymymysharona]

CF- everything you have said in this thread makes so much sense and i wish more people thought like you, but unfortunately i don't see that happening any time soon.

i just wanted to say i appreciate your thoughts and feelings and the way you express yourself.

 

[mymymymysharona]

Hey go ahead and close this thread mods. The people with the intelligence to think about the welfare of others already know what is going on.

The rest can go back to kindergarten and play with all the other children.

spot on. it's hard to get across to an increasingly selfish society where it's all about me me me and what i i i can get out of this life, furthering individual goals and wants.

no one thinks of others anymore, i think that gene has been wiped out. what's more, i can't believe that actual aussies can't find it in their hearts to feel for these people, and i can- and i'm a migrant!

but anyway, there's people and there's people. the sad thing about this is that only some people peppered across the country will carry this legacy and when they're gone these kinds of topics will cease to be initiated.

 

[mymymymysharona]

I think Aboriginals need to help themselves.. you can lead a horse to water but you can;t make it drink. You can give them all the free houses, cheap rent, free entry to uni but that hasn't worked in the past .....

Oh and the stolen generation.... you want me to say sorry? you can get FKD!

how the hell did we lead a horse to water? this is exactly the problem. we try to cover up our mistakes by providing the basics and thinking that we're doing them a massive favour? please! firstly, they weren't even used to houses, uni etc. so it's not exactly 'what they need'. and then we blame them for being drunks? we are still trying to make them like us after so many years. they are secluded and not given the time of day. depression and booze go hand in hand. but oh no, it's THEIR fault and THEY should help themselves.

i think the issue is many people just see this as amalgamating to a single word: sorry. and as we all know, people find that oh so hard these days. even if we were forced to say it, i wonder how many people actually would mean it. people need to realise that sorry is so much more than a word, as CF put it, it's a process. we pride ourselves on our multiculturalism but turn our backs on the ORIGINAL inhabitants of this land? THAT is fucked.

 

[swifty]

so after we've said sorry, which we've been doing for 9 years now as per this what next??

what happens, do we need to say sorry for the next 150 years in order to make up for the past??

 

[mymymymysharona]

if you read the article properly it says: "Sorry Day was an annual event between 1998 and 2004." obviously that plan didn't work, plus can you say you went along to it and recorded something, that you personally did something?

not only can you not read the article, but you can't read my post or CF's. it's a process, it's no a fucking word. words mean shit. especially coming from people like you who no way in hell would actually mean them.

 

[Beatlebot]

What do you want to happen? Nothing is going to happen overnight, I just think people need to acknowledge there is a reason things are the way they are today.

Besides, the news isn't all bad, there are alot of great things happening in aboriginal communities across the nation. Sure alcoholism and violence is still a problem in some areas but in some places aboriginal elders are addressing these problems themselves, which is great.

EDIT: For typo

 

[mymymymysharona]

I just think people need to acknoledge there is a reason things are the way they are today.

precisely! and as this thread's proved, that isn't going to happen.

 

[mymymymysharona]

bottom line is, there will always be a debate between the people that don't give a rat's ass about anyone else but themselves, and those with a heart who want to stand up for those who are too weak to do so themselves (and hey can you blame them?). end of story.

 

[swifty]

if you read the article properly it says: "Sorry Day was an annual event between 1998 and 2004." obviously that plan didn't work, plus can you say you went along to it and recorded something, that you personally did something?

not only can you not read the article, but you can't read my post or CF's. it's a process, it's no a fucking word. words mean shit. especially coming from people like you who no way in hell would actually mean them.

mindless rhetoric - that's all you've got...

24000 apologies - 21million people - guess I'm not the only one who didn't apologise - guess it's fair to say you didn't, nor zero the hero, CF, LP, or most of the other people in this thread who think we need to say sorry - so that makes you all fucking hypocrites...

hows that view from the moral high ground?? pretty good this time of year eh??

 

[Zero the hero]

mindless rhetoric - that's all you've got...

24000 apologies - 21million people - guess I'm not the only one who didn't apologise - guess it's fair to say you didn't, nor zero the hero, CF, LP, or most of the other people in this thread who think we need to say sorry - so that makes you all fucking hypocrites...

I'm a half-breed, so why the fuck would someone who's half American Indian- and therefore Aboriginal themselves-apologize to the Aborigines of Australia? Actually, I will offer an apology:

"Sorry guys that you've been fucked over so bad and that you and your culture were almost destroyed after 50,000 years of continual existence. I'm sorry that these people from their comfy, middle-class existences, most of whom have never suffered the effects of substance abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, homelessness, isolation, hopelessness and racism, care so little about you that they feel that it's too much to even consider having their government apologize and freely offer you compensation for your past sufferings. I'm also sorry that the vast majority of your countrymen see you as a “problem” they wish would “go away” and that you're government STILL cares so little about you that they seem to find it perfectly expectable that your life span's 20 years less then the average citizen.”

How’s that? Am I doing all right so far? There’s plenty I’ve missed, so do fee free to add onto that list if you’d like sunshine…

But anyway, for your information I’ve personally never believed that any individual should apologize for what happened to the Aboriginal people, but that an apology-and recognition of the suffering these people endured-should come from the government, followed by compensation and community based healing programs, such as those that are apparently about to be implemented in Canada.

 

[swifty]

Well put. What people don't seem to understand is that an apology to the Aborigines, recognizing their suffering and offering compensation to the victims

But anyway, for your information I’ve personally never believed that any individual should apologize for what happened to the Aboriginal people

awesome