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The Indigenous Australian thread

Kat decided to give you guys one more chance with this thread, as far as i'm concerned, it should be closed (but Kat is far nicer than i ;)). I know that there are a small amount of people that have contributed decent discussion, but for the most part, this thread has gone to shit, just like the first one.

I'm going to edit the shit out of this thread if there are ANY posts that don't relate DIRECTLY to the discussion, seriously, anything you have to say to one another, take it to PM.
 
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i found this on the age web site thought it may be of interest to people here.

Aboriginal kids 'left in risky homes'

May 28, 2007 - 7:59PM

The national obsession with making reparation to the stolen generation is putting many indigenous children at serious risk, because welfare workers are afraid to remove them from abusive households, a federal government MP says.

Government backbencher Kay Elson told MPs there had been many well documented cases of violence, sexual abuse and neglect in indigenous families.

"I don't believe enough action has been taken to stop the violence and the abuse in Aboriginal communities," Ms Elson said.

the full artical
 
So what does everyone think about Howard's (in the nick of time before election) solution to the problem of Aboriginal child abuse?

As far as I'm concerned it's another joke in a long history of us continually mistreating the Aboriginal people. Once again instead of treating the symptoms that communally result in their high addiction to things like alcohol, Howard is just closing his eyes and pretending that denying them access to such evils will make things better, just like the cops always seem in the media to be winning the war on drugs yet I've never had any trouble getting them.

And the fact that he has essentially declared "martial law" and is sending cops and troops in by the hordes shows how little he understands the complexities of the issue. I predict many bad returns, possibly even rioting. Kick a dog when it is down and you'll probably get bitten.

And if alcohol and pornography are such heinous evils that they alone are causing all this molestation, then why are the rest of us still allowed to purchase them? In my opinion the high instances of child abuse are more exacerbated by the general standard of living, and lack of communal pride as a whole. If Howard wants to improve things he will have to start with ending our habit of squirreling indigenous Australians away into "communities" and start accepting the fact that they are here to stay, are people too, and deserve just as much a right to a normal life as anyone else. They will never have this chance whilst they are relegated to lives of despair, so we don't have to think about them much in our conquered land.
 
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Go to Dandenong, I'll show you some communal white families that need their kids taken from them.
 
Lostpunk, have you ever actually been to one of these "remote communities"?
 
No but I have spent may hours talking with my Uncle who previously was the housing inspector (seeing what repair work needs to be done) for all the communities in the NT. Now he is responsible for getting two teams of Aboriginal kids through building apprenticeships so they can take care of their own shit.

In short I've heard a lot about the commuities and seen a lot of photos. It's disheartening, they don't really give a shit about anything.
 
I was gonna write this reply sooner, but have not had a chance.

I've been to Laverton, Leonora, Paraburdoo, Halls Creek, Meekatharra, and Newman, all predominantly Aborginal town, admittedly not for any other purpose except for work, but I lived in Meeka and Laverton for over a year all up (the other places were brief stays, no more than a month or two) and the situation out there is completely fucked.

Seriously man, pictures and talks (I'm not having a dig at you here) they don't mean tuppence worth of fuck all, seeing it first hand is the only way to truly understand. Kids out there go days without eating, people shit on the street, once I went to use a payphone and there was a barker in the phone booth and smeared all over the handset.

The fighting and yelling resounds through the night, broken glass litters the streets, rubbish gets piled up for days in the "park" (read: gravel circle with fence enclosing it).

I met two little kids, probably 9 and 7 although the were that underfed and riddled with disease they coulda been 12 and 14 who were scabbing out of the bin behind the pub we were in, they hadn't eaten for 4 days, man the poor little buggers didn't even know where their parents were, not like it'd matter in any case since they were probably too broke, drunk and fucked up to do anything about it anyway...

Finally, I barely survived a mobbing on my final day in laverton, we were moving to a remote exploration camp and loading our truck with beer and cigarettes for the 2 weeks we would be out there before the final holes were drilled at that area and as we loaded the last of into the truck, about 15 natives came tearing across the "park" throwing stick, bottles, bricks, cans and whatever else they could as we hauled ass out of town and we were pursued about 100m down the road until we got to the hwy the sole purpose was to get the booze, since they hadn't even look twice at us in over 5 months.

To be honest, I think the situation is completely unsalvagable. On one hand you have a govt that couldn't care less about the town and towns full of aborigines who couldn't care less about life.

My point is, as other people have had a go at me over previous threads is that it's hard to get the aborigines to adopt our white middle class ideals, and rightly so, but not looking after your kids, not feeding them, shitting where you sleep, constant fighting and violence - they aren't middle class ideals, it's just basic human nature to do those those, no matter where you come from, you provide for your offspring, being productive whilst entirely subjective, isn't even human nature, it's basic animal nature.
 
swifty said:
To be honest, I think the situation is completely unsalvagable. On one hand you have a govt that couldn't care less about the town and towns full of aborigines who couldn't care less about life.

Thats it :\ .
 
ok, ill start by saying that i did not read the entirety of the first post, nor did i read pretty much any of the reply's. BUT I did get the gist of this thread?
Dragging up how badly we've treated the aboriginals in the past right?
well.... i come from Bairnsdale, and am on a first name basis with quite a few actual, real to life aboriginals, and yes, i have actually touched one before.... FUCKING AMAZING!!! More than i can say for alot of people from the city who have 'strong views' on our cultural pasts.
I have had long and in depth conversations with young aboriginals, and any who are worth there salt (e.g dont steal, curse in public, get drunk and abusive in public, start fights, get in trouble with the police ect.) would rather threads like this DID NOT EXIST. They want to move on to a future where they dont have suburban hippies jumping up and down about aboriginal rights because where the aboriginals live they will just get treated like there getting hand outs! They just want to be normal everyday Australians like you and me! (without the questions of who has more right to be an Australian!)
 
Originally Posted by lostpunk5545

There is evidence to suggest that Aboriginals evolved for the last 50 000 years completely seperately to the rest of Homo sapiens. Who knows how they would have evolved given time away from everyone else?

the 50,000 years wasnt long enough? If the vikings had of landed on the shores of Australia 1,000's of years ago do you really believe there would be any left?
That comment is in no way derogatory toward aboriginals, just an observation.
 
If you didn't read the entire thread then maybe you should before you go throwing around labels like 'suburban hippies'.
 
I have read enough of your posts to get the picture thanks punk....

In response to aboriginals being 'squireled' into communities... They CHOOSE to live like that, the sad fact of the matter is a majority are alot more, dare i say 'un-evolved' than the rest of us, which is fine when they are left alone to hunt/gather tell stories around the fire, but once you chuck a stubbie into a neanderthol's hand, they WILL turn violent, abusive and loose any concept of what there previous values were.

While any answer the Australian government has come up with since Day 1 has failed.
-Land boats, kill natives
-Didnt work, so lets fuse them into our culture (genetics) untill there thinned out
-Still didnt work, lets throw money at the problem (housing, cars, ect)

There IS NO short term answer to the problem, I know that Just in my lifetime and in my town the government has given them un-fathomable hand outs that would get the 'average Australian' set up for a lifetime. Im talking housing to live in, Cars to drive around, children PAID to get schooling, phones to communicate with. And what do they do? Piss it up against the wall.
-Thrash the cars/sell them for booze
-Destroy the house/ cut up fences for fires inside the house
-Pawn phones
-Dissrupt classrooms with lewd behaviour.

The Aboriginal leaders of this country need to go out and touch every lost aboriginals heart one by one..... HMMM.... thats gonna take a long time though!
Drastic problems require drastic measures. Get the army in, stop the famine, abuse, violence then once the problem is under control work from there.
 
If you can quote where I've said I'm all for fucking hand outs being bandied about you can start stereotyping me.

You can't oppress a people further than they already are and then expect them to come out fine on the other side. And you lose the argument once you start racial profiling. Crawl back under the rock you came from pal. Neanderthals? Don't use words like evolution unless you know what they mean. Science is obviously a subject you are far from grasping.

--------------------------

I agree with a lot of what you've said Swifty. As I've also said, my Uncle was responsible for inspecting all the housing comditions for all the indigenous communities in the NT. It was hardly just a random talk and looking at pictures with someone who didn't know what they were talking about, and frankly I think he is a bit more authorative on the subject than you.

I don't disagree with your perception of the Aboriginal people, but it's not the whole picture. I disagree once you start writing off a whole race of people on the basis of your limited experience.

And believe me, I've seen some fucked up things in regards to indigenous Australians as well. I've travelled around the NT twice (and was recently in Alice Springs where things are currently very bad). I'm not as nieve as you would like to believe, but I also can see that nothing we've done so far has helped. And what the government is doing now will not help either.
 
lostpunk5545 said:
If you can quote where I've said I'm all for fucking hand outs being bandied about you can start stereotyping me.

You can't oppress a people further than they already are and then expect them to come out fine on the other side. And you lose the argument once you start racial profiling. Crawl back under the rock you came from pal. Neanderthals? Don't use words like evolution unless you know what they mean. Science is obviously a subject you are far from grasping.

Thumbs up!

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lostpunk5545 said:
It was hardly just a random talk and looking at pictures with someone who didn't know what they were talking about, and frankly I think he is a bit more authorative on the subject than you.

I never said it was random uniformed talks, I said talks don't give the full picture, and I never claimed to be an authority, in fact I said I was there for no other purpose than work

lostpunk5545 said:
I don't disagree with your perception of the Aboriginal people, but it's not the whole picture. I disagree once you start writing off a whole race of people on the basis of your limited experience.

either I'm not expressing myself fully, or you're taking me out of context, I'm not writing off a race of people because of my limited experience, but questioning their values and their morals, not in relation to my "white middle class ideals" but in relation basic animal instinct, basic human instinct.

lostpunk5545 said:
And believe me, I've seen some fucked up things in regards to indigenous Australians as well. I've travelled around the NT twice (and was recently in Alice Springs where things are currently very bad). I'm not as nieve as you would like to believe, but I also can see that nothing we've done so far has helped. And what the government is doing now will not help either.

I don't think it will either, but it's a step (albeit a wobbly misguided one) in the right direction at least it's a hands on approach and if nothing else will at least reduce the sexual and physical assault that allegedly occurs, and maybe bring in some drastically needed medical attention, and no-one can say that's a bad thing
 
Please lost punk, i was not making any abusive comments towards you, i was not stereotyping you, i was not putting words into your mouth, profiling I believe is warranted when dealing with mass spread problems, the rock I am living under happens to have some rather nice rock paintings done by my aboriginal friends. :)



I personally believe that as the scientific anomoly that the human race is, has made us 'evolve' into a species that can do MORE than just hunt/gather. I believe we are capeable of amazing things, past telling stories about how the rivers once were snakes that came down from the heavens. I have no problems with the deep seeded culture that the aboriginals sometimes embrace, i do however have problems with violence on the streets that we (Australians, black/white) have paved. Violence in our schools, violence in the houses that we could soo easily pretend dont exist.

To me the "were invading 'there' land" arguement is TOTAL BULL SHIT. Its not ANYONES LAND! nobody owns this planet, who was there before the Aboriginals!? You dont see africans going round saying "well, actually, we were the first modern humans on the planet, soo... really, would you mind giving up your country for us.!" Its a nill arguement. The way that history has panned out is the way it has panned out... If it werent us. it would be someone else who 'invaded' and they might have brought with them more bullets?
 
preacha said:
Go to Dandenong, I'll show you some communal white families that need their kids taken from them.


agreed

I wonder if the government would get away with doing this to white folks?
 
Sorry Swifty, I'll admit that my previous post was coloured by your contributions in the previous thread. Thus it may have been a bit defensive and or cuntish.

I also wish for some positive outcomes from the government's current actions but unfortunately I don't think it is the most tactful way to go about things. It is definitely a plan that will get some immediate outcomes in terms of stopping child and alcohol abuse. I'm definitely all for that.

However I don't think it will do much for race relations. It's too forceful, and with tensions already running high (and they have been for the last two hundred years) I just can't predict positive outcomes. Hopefully not, but events ocurring such as the recent redfern riots, with outright hostility shown towards police and army personnel, are likely to happen.

------------------------

blind injustice...


I'm not going to bother.

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rm2x said:
agreed

I wonder if the government would get away with doing this to white folks?

Can you imagine the blasting the government would get from A Current Affairs, Today Tonight, and 60 Minutes?

:)
 
You cant say that we live in a society that if there were 'remote' white australian communities that were conducting themselves in exactley the same fashion that we are seeing from the native Australian communities that very similar if not exactley the same action would be taken.

Im sorry that ive got you off side lostpunk, i came across pretty strong as this is a topic close to my heart, I am in no way racist, I believe in equality, but unfortunately there is no text book set way to handle a situation like were seeing, and we need people just like YOU and ME to share viewpoints otherwise objectivity would be hard to come about.
 
It's not that you've got me off side. It's just that your opinion is trash.

If you would read the opening post of this thread you would see that it pretty much couldn't have been much worse had any other European country colonised Australia. We brang plenty enough bullets.

You seem incapable of viewing the issue from a historical perspective. Unfortunately the problems Indigenous Australians face are a direct result of our history, they're not chronologically isolated.

No group of White Australians has ever been so mistreated, thus you will never ever see problems on this scale. That makes your analogies null and void.
 
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