The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[spacejunk]

you're of course entitled to your opinion, but did you even read my last post?

a grand jury is a check on the power of a prosecutor. one of the last real checks that we even have to quell prosecutorial overreach.

the prosecutor presents the evidence to the grand jury and they tell him whether he's full of shit or not. without that, the system would become even more fucked up and biased. prosecutors could just charge anyone with a capital crime at their discretion, and it would fall on the defendant to go to trial and fight it. this would inevitably lead to even more bias against poor minorities who, for socioeconomic reasons, cannot afford proper counsel beyond a public defender.

Fair call - you are likewise entitled to believe and support what you see as working (or not as the case may be).

If the grand jury system is sound - which it may well be - why does the perception of injustice hang over so many cases of this nature, and do you see any way around it?
I'm just trying to have a dialogue man, I'm curious to hear where people see the problems and solutions existing.
Or is there nothing wrong? That seems to be what some people here are saying.

 

[LosBlancos]

LosBlancos, good find. I brought that up earlier. I was thinking about that when I saw pictures of all the white people carrying "justice for Mike Brown" signs. I wonder if they even know or are they just part of the 'new wave of revolutionaries' who really don't have a fucking clue how things work at all.

I'm not surprised in the slightest. In almost every university nowadays students are being force fed the far-left Agenda, they eat up concepts like "white privilege" faster than they can guzzle down a mocha latte while they sit in class. Just like that Georgetown student who was mugged and wrote an "op-ed" piece saying he could not condemn his attackers from his "perch of privilege".

At my school it was like a cancer. The far-left lobby got the university when they issued crime alerts to stop including descriptors of the perps which made them utterly pointless. Once they realized almost every alert of a robbery or assault had a young black male or group of them as the perpetrators they just decided it wasn't important to include that information anymore. Then on their is talks about not celebrating Colombus Day and instead making it Indigenous Peoples Day. Kids in front of the cafeteria trying to get me to donate money to the Southern Poverty Law Center. They wanted my help in stopping "hate crimes" they quickly knew they were talking to the wrong person when I let them know that every assault or murder is done out of hate, and that the whole concept of hate crimes is disproportinately used for white on black crime but rarely applied for black on white crime. They just grew silent and look shocked that someone at the school hadn't been drinking their Kool-Aid and still had some powers of critical thinking left in their brain.

 

[LosBlancos]

Fair call - you are likewise entitled to believe and support what you see as working (or not as the case may be).

If the grand jury system is sound - which it may well be - why does the perception of injustice hang over so many cases of this nature, and do you see any way around it?
I'm just trying to have a dialogue man, I'm curious to hear where people see the problems and solutions existing.
Or is there nothing wrong? That seems to be what some people here are saying.

If we didn't have the Grand Jury system there would be loads of cases with little evidence having charges brought against people. Say for instance some woman accused you of rape and there is no Grand Jury system, you would either have to use a public defender or spend loads of money on a lawyer, your name and reputation would forever be tarnished even if you beat the charges as well. The Grand Jury system is a filter to make sure their is enough evidence for the State to bring about charges.

I don't see any injustice, this was handled like any other case. The Grand Jury was comprised of everyday citizens including 3 African-Americans. They listened to 60 hours of evidence, far more than you or me or anyone else following the case online likely heard and came to this conclusion. Look at the video of him robbing the convenience store, the call was dispatched to officers about the robbery, Darren Wilson gave him orders, he didn't comply and attacked him which several witnesses stated (several more lied which hurts the credibility of the case, we come to find out Michael Brown never had his hands up) if even after the eyewitnesss acounts its hard to believe Michael Brown attacked the officer just listen to his music.

 

[paranoid android]

I'm glad the thought of the left never mind Communism scares you so much Los Cojones. Means us lefties must be doing something right

 

[ebola?]

do you think these implicit biases have a genetic basis (i.e. are we biologically programmed to be biased against those who differ from us markedly in appearance), or are they purely mediated by socially informed in-group/out-group dynamics? some of both?

I think that we have a pretty strong genetic predisposition toward excluding members of out-groups, as not fully human, fundamentally different from we "normal people" (it's rather telling that many hunter-gatherer tribes chose "the people [in their language]" as the typical signifier for their tribe). Yes, this is often based on appearance, but there is no reason that groups be identified and partitioned around differences in skin tone and facial structure (let alone those of contemporary racial categories). Markers of group-membership invoked in such conflicts tends to be visible anyway, as we are prone to adorning ourselves with cultural artifacts.

So simplifying a good bit, you could say that there is a more general genetic predisposition that expresses itself via multiple forms depending on culture.

is there even any way to determine that?

As for how to determine the degree of contribution from genetics, you'd want to somehow asses the level of expression of some general socio-genetic tendency in varied cultural contexts. To the degree that you have patterns that are culturally invariant, but occurring in varied environmental contexts, you have a strong case of a comparatively purely genetic causal factor. However, assessment of whether a more genetic tendency is or isn't expressed in varied cultural ways poses methodological difficulties, as it's difficult to generate an appropriate null hypothesis, given the multitude of ways in which a general tendency can be easily applied to potentially ill-fitting specific exemplars.

sorry for posting nothing but questions lol

No, they're good questions!

ebola

 

[spacejunk]

If we didn't have the Grand Jury system there would be loads of cases with little evidence having charges brought against people

This is demonstrably false, as numerous nations have done away with Grand Juries in the last 200+ years, and their justice systems have coped.
In fact, all of those countries have less incarcerated people than the USA.
Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing depends on your perspective.

Look at the video of him robbing the convenience store, the call was dispatched to officers about the robbery, Darren Wilson gave him orders, he didn't comply and attacked him which several witnesses stated (several more lied which hurts the credibility of the case, we come to find out Michael Brown never had his hands up) if even after the eyewitnesss acounts its hard to believe Michael Brown attacked the officer just listen to his music.

Just listen to his music?
You're trying to say that guilt can be ascertained by analysing the content of someone's creative work?
I don't think so.
All the things you mention above seem pretty circumstantial to me. Granted, I was not a member of that jury - but nor were you.
Frankly I don't trust the sources of information you habitually quote from and reference (the tabloid variety) and your slant is predictable to say the least.
You don't see injustice? It does not mean it isn't there.

 

[ebola?]

It's just hard for me to believe that blacks not having healthcare is because of something like racism.

As I hope is becoming increasingly obvious to people (I keep making this point repeatedly) is that contemporary racism does not function primarily in terms of individual bias (let alone explicit, self-conscious racial bias or ideology). Rather, status-quo institutional configurations tend to reproduce (and in some cases amplify) our inherited past of more obvious racial oppression. Eg, it is because of the history of Jim Crow, coupled with discriminatory restriction of housing loans (that continues today), also coupled with industrial decline in inner-cities (and according subsequent white flight to suburbs, that led to our still stark metropolitan segregation by race and the prominence of violent crime in areas facing the brunt of this history of oppression.

So these conditions of impoverishment, reduced access to education necessary to excel in professional social settings, the constant threat of crime, etc. lead to outcomes like poor access to health services.

ebola

 

[nuttynutskin]

It's good to see that there's still some good people in the world...

Ferguson bakery owner raises $158,000 on GoFundMe page after riots

By Michael Walsh 14 hours ago Yahoo News

A small business owner raised more than $158,000 to restore her bakery after it was damaged during the recent riots in Ferguson, Mo.

Natalie Dubose, who opened Natalie's Cakes and More this summer, was horrified when it was targeted Monday night, after a grand jury decided not to indict officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown.

“I’m beside myself, but with the holidays, can't stop working,” she wrote on her GoFundMe page. “I'm very busy cleaning and trying to repair my business. I'm also trying to catch up on baking cakes for Thanksgiving!”

Dubose says she started baking and selling cakes at local flea markets and saved up until she had enough money to make her dream of starting her own business come true.

A friend recommended that she start a fundraising page on Tuesday.

“The outpouring of support on Twitter, Facebook, and in the media has been amazing. I was in tears,” she said.

Her story caught the attention of “Everybody Loves Raymond” actress Patricia Heaton and “Real Housewives of Beverly Hills” star Brandi Glanville, who voiced their support on Twitter to their hundreds of thousands of followers.

Within 24 hours of starting her campaign, more than 4,900 people contributed to help her buy new windows and repair other damage to her shop.

“Thank you to EVERYONE for the kind words, prayers, and emotional support,” she wrote. “I am so humbly blessed!”

Similarly, the Ferguson Municipal Public Library benefited from a social media campaign urging donations.

“OVERWHELMED by generosity from around the country. We have received donations from more than 7,000 folks! Amazing and humbling!” a post on the library’s Facebook page reads.

The library stayed open to provide schoolchildren with a safe place to learn when many other organizations in the city – including the schools – were closed.

http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-bake...0-on-gofundme-page-after-riots-214703014.html

 

[Apostacious]

I find it rather annoying that giant media corporations seem to put the spotlight on cases of white-on-black violence, when there is reason to suspect that the violence was carried out in self-defense, but they outright ignore clear and cut cases of police brutality, like the 12 year old recently that has been shot, or the horrific case where 2 police officers beat Kelley Thomas to death. Putting the spotlight on a violent Blood gang member will cast doubt on the anti-police brutality movement, as it will be seen as simply a racially-motivated movement by people who are ill informed (this includes most Americans).

These riots do much to cause apathy towards the plight of young black men. I wouldn't doubt that without the intense media spotlight, there would be no riots, or at least there would be isolated cases of violence. I sometimes think that humanity is too fucking stupid to get its shit together.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I'm glad the thought of the left never mind Communism scares you so much Los Cojones. Means us lefties must be doing something right

I'm going to be good and not bring up "guaranteed minimum income", although I'd laugh if LB called it a liberal idea.

I suspect GMI will come around, sooner or later, for economic/political reasons, as productivity gains increase.

 

[LosBlancos]

As I hope is becoming increasingly obvious to people (I keep making this point repeatedly) is that contemporary racism does not function primarily in terms of individual bias (let alone explicit, self-conscious racial bias or ideology). Rather, status-quo institutional configurations tend to reproduce (and in some cases amplify) our inherited past of more obvious racial oppression. Eg, it is because of the history of Jim Crow, coupled with discriminatory restriction of housing loans (that continues today), also coupled with industrial decline in inner-cities (and according subsequent white flight to suburbs, that led to our still stark metropolitan segregation by race and the prominence of violent crime in areas facing the brunt of this history of oppression.

So these conditions of impoverishment, reduced access to education necessary to excel in professional social settings, the constant threat of crime, etc. lead to outcomes like poor access to health services.

ebola

Discriminatory restriction of housing loans? BIll Clinton made a push to increase loans to minorities and low-income people contributed greatly to the financial meltdown/mortgage crisis (source http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/hotproperty/archives/2008/02/clintons_drive.html).

 

[paranoid android]

I'm going to be good and not bring up "guaranteed minimum income", although I'd laugh if LB called it a liberal idea.

I suspect GMI will come around, sooner or later, for economic/political reasons, as productivity gains increase.

Well i guess Nixon would most likely be considered Liberal now in terms of economic policies even compared to the Democrats. Friedman was a Libertarian so yup no Liberal conspiracy here except that American Libertarianism is derived from Liberalism more or less. But that's a whole other story

 

[LosBlancos]

'Please refrain from taking up space': The controversial rules for white people at Michael Brown vigil in Toronto

A set of rules for white people at a vigil for Michael Brown in Canada has sparked controversy with critics accusing organizers of promoting segregation.
'Non black allies' were told to 'refrain from taking up space in all ways possible' and 'never be at the centre of anything' at the event in Toronto on November 25.
The Facebook page also advised white demonstrators to 'refrain from speaking to the media' and 'stand behind black folks or between us and the police'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...white-people-Michael-Brown-vigil-Toronto.html

 

[alasdairm]

^ you really should read some other sources than the daily mail. that shit will rot your brain...

alasdair

 

[paranoid android]

'Please refrain from taking up space': The controversial rules for white people at Michael Brown vigil in Toronto

A set of rules for white people at a vigil for Michael Brown in Canada has sparked controversy with critics accusing organizers of promoting segregation.
'Non black allies' were told to 'refrain from taking up space in all ways possible' and 'never be at the centre of anything' at the event in Toronto on November 25.
The Facebook page also advised white demonstrators to 'refrain from speaking to the media' and 'stand behind black folks or between us and the police'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...white-people-Michael-Brown-vigil-Toronto.html

Okay pick a fucking better source then the Daily Fail ffs. I don't use the Socialist worker as a source so yeah atleast try to use a source that people look at as something other then a tabloid to line your cats litter box with. Anyway i shall use the Toronto Star which is atleast reputable

Crowd gathers near U.S. consulate to chant in fury about Michael Brown decision

Toronto protest over the shooting death of Michael Brown sparks online debate for asking white and non-black protestors to stand at the back and "refrain from taking up space."

Protesting Torontonians braved near-freezing temperatures Tuesday night to fill a courtyard across from the U.S. consulate, and to chant in fury against the U.S. grand jury decision not to charge the policeman who fatally shot Michael Brown.
“No justice, no peace, no racist police,” the protesters, who were dressed in black and wedged between the Superior Court and the consulate, yelled into the night air.
Emilie Ruel, 7, was standing at the front of the crowd wearing panda-bear mittens while holding a blood-spattered sign that read “Black Lives Matter.” Her mother, Akio Maroon, one of the event organizers, rallied the crowd by calling for a “complete and utter elimination of police violence.”
“We need to stand up and say enough is enough. Toronto Police Service, I am telling you, every single officer here, you are on notice,” Maroon shouted.
The protest, arranged on Facebook, generated some backlash online when organizers suggested all white or non-black people stand at the back, don’t speak to media and “refrain from taking up space in all ways possible.”
“Remember that you are there in support of black folks, so should never be at the centre of anything,” their post stated. Over 100 people commented on the post, with some asking if the protest was “an anti-racist rally or a pro-segregation one.”

Whoever was acting as a media organizer for this event is a fucking moron. With this segregationist language you are not only going to piss off alot of non black people but also alot of black people who don't want to see white people getting shot by cops anymore then they would blacks. I understand the need for them to do it for themselves but the goal should be for everyone to work towards fixing this problem not just one group and not just 1 group dictating how people can protest.

It's shit like this is why i always say that propaganda is a art you must learn to use if you are going to get any significant changes done in politics. Granted a few stupid organizers do not represent everyone involved by any means. So what if abunch of stupid students make themselves look no better then the very thing they are trying to fight? I guess your going to say all dem uppity blacks in Toronto are like these so called organizers. OMG my cousin must be down hating on white people too . Oh wait he is half white so who is he supposed to hate?

I never saw anything like this stateside so i was kind of shocked to see such a stupid approach taken by a few morons up here.

 

[Illyria99]

I'm sick of all these protests. Yes, the verdict was bullshit...but it seems that people are using this situation as a reason to loot and be retarded.

I'M JUST SO OVER THIS!!

 

[LosBlancos]

^ you really should read some other sources than the daily mail. that shit will rot your brain...

alasdair

I could post a few different links for that same story but the coverage is somewhat sparse, most of the mainstream media wouldn't touch this story with a ten-foot pole.

For the record though, Daily Mail online is the world's largest and most popular online newspaper with more unique visitors than New York Times or BBC News.

 

[paranoid android]

I could post a few different links for that same story but the coverage is somewhat sparse, most of the mainstream media wouldn't touch this story with a ten-foot pole.

For the record though, Daily Mail online is the world's largest and most popular online newspaper with more unique visitors than New York Times or BBC News.

FFS the Star is as mainstream as you can get! It just wasn't picked up cause it happened in Toronto and was not that big of a event i suspect.

And the Daily fail is shit and has been proven so.

 

[LosBlancos]

FFS the Star is as mainstream as you can get! It just wasn't picked up cause it happened in Toronto and was not that big of a event i suspect.

And the Daily fail is shit and has been proven so.

There are plenty of "big events" that go unreported in the mainstream media, or receive a fraction of the coverage this Ferguson shooting did.

When a white person gets shot by the police they can't spin it into a huge narrative on how were back in the Jim Crow days.

 

[LosBlancos]

ISIS supports Ferguson protesters: Islamic militants pledge to send over 'soldiers that don't sleep, whose drink is blood, and their play is carnage'

British jihadis fighting for the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq have pledged to send militants to fight police in the riot-hit American city of Ferguson, Missouri - providing the protesters embrace Islam.
The city has seen widespread disorder after a police officer escaped punishment for shooting dead an unarmed black teenager, and now the Islamic extremists are attempting to take advantage of the anti-authoritarian feeling to convince those involved to adopt ISIS' radical ideology.
Using the slogan 'From #IS 2 Ferguson', Birmingham-born jihadi Junaid Hussain, 20 - who has adopted the nom de guerre Abu Hussain al-Britani - this morning tweeted a photograph of a hand-written letter urging the Ferguson rioters to 'reject corrupt man-made laws like democracy' and declare their allegiance to ISIS' leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.


The note Hussain posted on Twitter today is titled 'From #IS 2 Ferguson' and contains a promise to send militants to the Missouri city if protesters pledge allegiance to ISIS.
It reads: 'We hear you and we will help you if you accept Islam and reject corrupt man-made laws like democracy and pledge your allegiance to Caliph Abu Bakr and then we will shed our blood for you and send our soldiers that don't sleep, whose drink is blood, and their play is carnage.'


Underneath the picture Hussain tweeted: 'Accept Islam & give bayah [allegiance] to Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi & then we will send u soldiers that don't sleep! - #IS #Ferguson'.
The note was accompanied by a photograph of a number of masked young men posing with assault rifles and mobile phone cases bearing the black and white logo of the Islamic State.
It is understood the men in the photograph are militants based in ISIS-held areas of Syria and Iraq, and that one of the men is 20-year-old Hussain.
Another militant, who uses the Twitter handle @Abu 3antar Britani and is also thought to be British, tweeted: 'From #IS to #Ferguson we heard your call and we are ready to respond! #FergusonDecision #BeLikeMalcolmX #FightBack'.
A third jihadi using the nom de guerre Abu Dujana subsequently posted a photograph of a large knife being brandished by somebody wearing a glove made by the American sports brand Nike.
'For how long will you let these govts oppress u. Draw ur knives and show them a response!! #FergusonDecision #IS,' he wrote.


Abu Dujana later urged people to learn about Bilal Ibn Rabah, a freed slave who was one of the Prophet Mohammed's closest companions.
He posted: 'Read the story of Bilal Ibn Rabah oh people #Ferguson and see how an oppressed slave became a hero & warrior through Islam.'
Today's developments are far from the first time ISIS militants have spoken about Ferguson.
In fact the opportunistic terrorists have repeatedly looked to take advantage of the anti-establishment feeling in the city by calling for the demonstrators to embrace extremist Islam.


The militants' attempts to hijack the protests in Ferguson appear to have two intentions.
Firstly the militants seem to believe that Ferguson allows them to portray the US as promising black people fair treatment and equality, but treating them with violence and oppression.
Secondly ISIS is evoking the names of a number of black civil rights leaders - many of whom, including Malcolm X, were Muslims and members of the Nation of Islam.
In drawing comparisons with the civil rights movement, the militants appear to trying to attract new converts from among the many protesters.
The links between Ferguson and ISIS go right back to the first protests in August, when a CNN news report appeared to show a man holding a placard reading 'ISIS is here'.
The images inspired ISIS sympathisers around the world to use the hashtag #FergusonUnderISIS to urge the protesters to embrace radical Islam.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-reject-corrupt-man-laws-like-democracy.html