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The difference between Methcathinone and 4Methylmethcathinone?

IlostaMadge said:
The neurotoxic effects of MDMA are somewhat evident, I was under the impression that the hallucinations produced on the comedown from the drug were indicative of 5HT presynaptic neuron damage, I may be grossly misinformed here.
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I don't think this is the case.

the delerium due to excessive stimulant use seems more to do with sleep deprivation than DA, indeed delerium can be created by sleep deprivation alone.

The neurotoxic effects of MDMA are slower to appear than the effects due to serotonin depletion which is just a short term thing due to excess use of stored and synthesised serotonin.

whether something doesn't have a heavy come down or not means nothing, if something is a dual SE DA releaser it is very likely going to cause neurotoxicity, the mechanism is disputed and uncertain.

I guess the calculation is risk vs benefit, are the good effects of methylmethcathinone worth the risk of potential neurotoxicity.
 
4-MMCAT has been hypothesised to bind to 5HT2B receptors, have a mild SSRI effect, and to cause serotonin release, as well as it's effects on the dopamine system.

I read (and I appreciate this is a vast oversimplification) that MDMA causes a reversal of the SERT, and when all the presynaptic 5HT is transported into the thesynapse various metabolites and DA are "taken" back into the presynaptic neuron by the transporter, the oxidants produced by the DA and metabolite breakdown when attacked by MAO are responsible for part of the neurotoxicity, and can cause vast cell damage, it is thought that this is linked to the hallucinogenic state that MDMA can produce on the tail end of rolls.

It has been shown that anti oxidants can reduceMDMA neurotoxicity, I would of thought melatonin (as a fast acting anti oxidant that can very quickly get anywhere in the body) would be ideal for combatting stimulant neurotoxicity, especially in combination with lipoic acid.

Again looking for opinions, rather than stating fact, I am very grateful for any input you choose to give on this.

Ah, I found the link relating to this : -

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/amphetamines_info1.shtml
 
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I have never seen anyone complain of any nasty side effects, and generally the chemical is very well received, would the neurotoxicity be apparent in any form of comedown or would it be an ongoing accumulative process?
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Here in Denmark a few people have gone to the hospital after ingesting 4-MMC. Unfortunately I don't know much about the specific circumstances of these hospitalizations. However this might be due to the fact that the youth of Denmark in general have no respects for their bodies or the drugs they take. Don't know if this is also the case in the UK?

Although this doesn't say much about the potential neurotoxicity, I felt I needed to comment on that.

Perhaps my view on this is somewhat colored by my own experience, but personally I don't think a few hours buzz is worth the risk of potential neurotoxicity.
 
^^ I would say that it is slightly less toxic than MDA/MDMA and methamphetamine, but likely significantly more toxic than regular (d)-amphetamine. That methylenedioxy moiety is still ripe for oxidation to the radical-promoting quinone species.
 
Reports are beginning to emerge of heart issues following consumption of the drug (i.e. immediate short term presumably related to overstimulation as opposed to any 5HT2B concerns), what worries me is that only small quantities in these cases are being consumed (200mg or so) which is strange because myself (very very stupidly, I really regret it) and others have done 5 grams at a sitting and not suffered any negative heart issues.

Theoretically could beta blockers be taken alongside the drug to reduce/eliminate the negative effects that the hypothesised ephedrine metabolites cause?
The DA release of the drug seems to be minimal in comparison to it's stimulation of the CNS, I know combining stimulants and BB's is generally a very bad idea, but if the primary mechanism of stimulation is due to ephedrine-esque metabolites with little to no secondary mechanisms, would it pose a significant risk?

Can anyone cast an eye over BK-MBDB's structure, (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/db/BK-MBDB.png) and tell me if this would metabolise into something that could act upon the CNS in the same way as mephedrone with regards to metabolites?

BK MBDB did cause a very noticable rise in how hard my heart was beating (not sure what the term is) it didn't seem to speed it up that much, but it really pounded in my chest, far more so than mephedrone.
 
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Hey i`m no scientist but i do recognise that all these chems are artifitial to our bodies,they fuck with the circuitry of the mind and create short cuts and dead ends...Hey man,all these chems are going to destroy,warp and obscure the pathways of our fragile minds.

In my opinion nearly all drugs are nuro toxic.
 
It may be your opinion, but it's not based in fact. Most drugs aren't neurotoxic. It's the stronger, longer lasting stimulants to watch out for.

Many drugs, especially the nmda-antagonists, are neuroprotective, as are many cannabinoids.
 
If you well educated ADDers were to guess the psychopharmacological workings of 4-methylmethcathinone and its metabolites, what would those guesses look like?

I'm a bit boggled by the absence of serotonin related hangover when dosing moderately, as well as the rather large difference in length between serotonergic and stimulant effects from the same dose.
 
Can anyone shed any light on the differences in activity between methcathinone and ethcathinone? I didn't think the question worthy of its own thread.

I'd expect ethcathinone to be weaker but subjectively more pleasant, as with MA vs Ethylamphetamine.
 
There seem to be several knowledgeable and intelligent people on this thread. Therefore, in the interests of harm reduction, could we get some of your opinions on steps that can be taken to reduce neurotoxicity. I'm sure this is discussed elsewhere, but here seems applicable too. Melatonin was mentioned as potentially beneficial for its antioxidant properties. There's a lot of talk about 5-htp. A good friend of mine talks up kavalactones for their neuro-protective properties. What do you guys think? How would you ideally take the MDxx's and their ketone cousins to reduce neuron damage?

Also, I am particularly interested in 4-mmc harm reduction, because I'm coming down from my first experiment with it now and have most of a gram waiting for me. I've taken 200mgs of 5-htp in 2 doses at the begining of the experiment and about +3:30 followed by about 250mgs of a 40% kavalactone extract. There has been nothing one could call a crash. In fact it has very gradually declined in effect like a spaceship synchronizing with a spacestation, 2001ish.

On another note, when I was younger I abused ephedrine a tiny bit. I would take 20-40mgs of the hcl and it produced much greater and more pronounced heart stress than 200mgs of 4-mmc did for me tonight, which barely produced any. In fact, I found the experience physically and mentally relaxing. There was a slight increase in blood pressure but that's about it and my blood pressure is normally very low. It seems to me if hydroxylation (? I'm no chemist ?) of the beta position was a common metabolic pathway of 4-mmc in the body there would be more physical stress on the heart than there was. Ephedrine was very physically taxing, so I only took it three times before it seemed pointless and stupid.
 
A good friend of mine talks up kavalactones for their neuro-protective properties. What do you guys think?
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Well full kava-kava has proved to be hepatotoxic in some people, so you pay your money...

Personally I'm of theopinion that if you have to take a second compound to protect you from important toxicity issues with the first, what the fuck are you taking the first one for in the beginning - there are a lot of drugs that'll produce similar effects, but without the risk of buggering something in your body in a serious way
 
tylenol and alcohol are hepatotoxic as well and as I understand it the liver damage from Kava wasn't from kavalactones but pipermethystine which isn't found in kava that has been properly prepared for humans.

Also what are these drugs you refer to that will "produce similar effects" without risk? I think a shit ton of people want to hear about those.
 
i dreamed i sythesised what i believe to be mmcat, extracting the ephedrine and oxidising it with H202 in a microwave. in my dream i was wondering if mmcat is drug testable through standard 5-10 panel drug tests. in my dream i had only tryed smoking it, only inhaling very little smoke and having slight hallucination in the dark only. please answer me back to my *dream* questions and if these are congruent effects of mmcat
 
Synthesis discussion + Drug testing questions + bullshit chemistry = Trash!

:\ Delete this pointless nonsense!

- Murphy


P.S. If you happen to have such dreams more regularly, please consult a physician!
 
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