Open Discussion the current events and politics forum

[-=SS=-]

a lot of bluelighters and staff have tried to create a forum where civil, respectful discussion can take place and that effort has been perpetually challenged by other s who can't participate without insults and abuse.

How you can say that with a straight face is beyond me. You, someguy, and arrall, have all fallen foul of exactly what you describe. I pointed arrall for it in the very short time I was a moderator of CEPs!

All three of you continually play similar versions of the same game whenever you see discussion that aggravates your own personal politics and worldview. You parachute in and inevitably try to spin it back on the poster as some form of personal defect, either in their beliefs or in their actual psychology itself. You in particular alasdairm have done that in my direction more than the other two, and I have called you out on it before.

It's disingenuous. All three of you knew exactly what you're doing, and everyone else can see it as well. And then you turn around and cry wolf when the recipient gets aggravated, which has provided the incredibly flimsy justification for shutting down CEPs.

We had a good moderation system going. Despite what all three of you try to paint me as, I was actually fair and balanced with my moderation approach. CEPs is never going to be conflict free, there will always be outliers who go too far or whatever, just like real life.. that's the whole point, we learn to hash it out.

And look where we are. Look which side has decided (and was openly calling for) CEPs to go. None of you actually value discussion and ideas unless they align with your own. Cut the crap.

 

[alasdairm]

i have never openly called for ce&p to go. indeed in this thread alone i have posted:

• "i agree." in response to "To me it would be a gravemarker, a sad one."
  
  
• "me neither." in response to "I don't see why we can't work this out."
  
  
• "i agree." in response to "Would be a true, damn shame if were to go away completely"

so, please, show me where i have ever openly called for ce&p to go?

thanks for the other comments.

alasdair

 

[-=SS=-]

And yet here we are, you openly closed it down.. mere weeks after parachuting back into a senior role. You wouldn't have been so trigger happy if it hadn't already crossed your mind.

 

[alasdairm]

ok, for the 6th or 7th time, it's closed temporarily pending a longer-term decision.

if you need it spelled out i want the ce&p forum to remain a thing at bluelight. but i don't make that decision on my own.

alasdair

 

[paltatomate]

the problem is that some users have a very rigid opinion about how people should think and act.
as soon as someone deviates from that opinion, they feel offended. or in most cases, they only take that as reason to make up for their own shortcomings by citing rules and hiding behind laws.
life is not black and white, and neither are people's thoughts and ways of expressing themselves.
maybe if the anal retentiveness could be lowered in favor of open-mindedness, everybody could get along a little better.

 

[alasdairm]

thanks for this post. i agree with some of what you say.

the problem is that some users have a very rigid opinion about how people should think and act.

often, it's not an opinion. there are rules and guidelines and some people act as if the rules should not apply to them. but i get that interpretation of the rules is subjective and your point is made.

fwiw, nobody on bluelight can force you to think a certain way.

i'm sad that you made it personal with the armchair diagnosis that people "only take that as reason to make up for their own shortcomings". maybe they're interpreting a rule differently than the way you would? maybe they're doing it, not because of their shortcomings but because they think it's best for the site and that's different to what you think is best for the site.

life is not black and white, and neither are people's thoughts and ways of expressing themselves.

indeed. i think bluelight is a testament to that.

maybe if the anal retentiveness could be lowered in favor of open-mindedness, everybody could get along a little better.

maybe it's not anal retentiveness. and open-mindedness goes both ways.

thanks again.

alasdair

 

[Cream Gravy?]

why by necessity? i'm a member of 3 other online boards. one of them is all about audis (the car). they have over 400,000 members and over 40 forums and none of them are about politics.

Car forums are inherently single-minded, I used to be part of Nissan and Miata forums back in the days when I owned tuners. They’re an exception.

On BL we all use drugs and invariably end up talking about completely off topic things. Thus politics slip in even in the most focused forums because this is far more of a social forum than a harm reduction forum, despite the intentions of the Aussies running the show now.

I don’t even recall the last time I made a thread about HR. I still reply to the odd HR thread but I mostly come here to socialize, and I think that’s how most any long term user feels. This is much more of a community than just simply a site about how to use safely.

 

[paltatomate]

I don’t even recall the last time I made a thread about HR. I still reply to the odd HR thread but I mostly come here to socialize, and I think that’s how most any long term user feels. This is much more of a community than just simply a site about how to use safely.

yes.
people who feel like they can't talk to anybody else about what matters to them.
or maybe they are lonely, some have mental and/or physical issues that don't allow them to just go out and find people they can share their thoughts with *and* feel understood and accepted.
i could go on with this, but to what end?
bluelight leadership has made it clear what they want and what not.
i feel sorry for all those who will loose something that helped them get through their days a little better.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

I'm seeing the frequent responses in here where Ali is the lone voice of staff, which inevitably paints him as 'the guy' against all the members clammoring for CEPS to remain. I really don't believe Ali wants it closed, but he's not getting any support from his co-admin on this right now. So, it leaves me wondering, what's the play here? I am certain he is honest in saying it isn't just up to him on decision making, but the others aren't putting energy into trying to work with members in this thread, which is unfortunate for Ali.

Having this thread open for discussion at all is an attempt to keep a connection with the members and let them know things are being reviewed. But, unless the members get CEPS back the way they want it, there will be bitterness and resentment. No other answer will be accepted by most. A selfish demand, in my view, but I also know the arguments that can be had to keep or to kill the forum. They don't matter, the 'people want'...simple as that.

NOT having this thread, leaves the public to guess of conspiracies, back room discussions, and motives that remain hidden. By having this thread there is an attempt to keep the members as part of the process, but their view to a large degree is about themselves, not the site nor mission. I get it. I'm in that boat of wanting it open as well because it is something I enjoy here. But, looking at it from where the admin/owner are, it really begs the question of if it is worth keeping. Everytime this question has arisen, I believe we've kept it open, modifying the rules and possibly changing up moderators while reminding members to behave or face the consequences....and yet, we keep returning to this question. Status quo ain't working.


Honestly, we've tried several times over the years on addressing CEPS and it's place on this server. At this point, I'd be willing to say 'pull the plug' and see how the site does for 3-6 months without the forum. Do we lose people over it? Were they contributing in ways that help the site/mission? We can always bring it back at some point if we see it does honestly damage community performance, losing experienced voices in more valued forums (over this ) or does it just do away with a noisy section that doesn't contribute to the site's mission?

There ought to be a way of checking some metrics on the site over the past year or so. Kill the forum for 3 or 6 months and see how those metrics change. Then decide if we need/want to bring it back. There is zero doubt in my mind that if opened up at a future date it would struggle to return to whatever level of traffic it has now. Some members may have moved on because of it, but others will take their place. CEPS is too hot of a subject to NOT generate traffic. But giving this 'down period' would allow for an honest reflection on if keeping it is worth the headache it ALWAYS generates for moderators. I don't know if that's what the admin are doing now with their 'pause' as I don't see any indication of timeframe other than 'please stand by'. But such a lengthened suspension for review may give those making the decisions more clarity on how critical the CEPS section is to the lifeblood of BL...or how expendable it truly is.

 

[alasdairm]

thanks tlb. i agree with a lot of what you say and i'll cherry pick a few.

Ali is the lone voice of staff, which inevitably paints him as 'the guy' against all the members clammoring for CEPS to remain.

i'm posting responses here because i volunteered to do that, on behalf of the staff, on this issue.

i know it can be a little hard to navigate but when i say something like "the forum (actually the whole category, which includes both the ce&p forum and the dive) has been removed". when i say something like "i want the ce&p forum to remain a thing at bluelight" i have my regular bluelighter.

if anybody is having trouble parsing anything i am saying, just ask.

Having this thread open for discussion at all is an attempt to keep a connection with the members and let them know things are being reviewed.

indeed.

NOT having this thread, leaves the public to guess of conspiracies

indeed. some people won't be happy either way but i think having it open is preferable.

At this point, I'd be willing to say 'pull the plug' and see how the site does for 3-6 months without the forum.

I don't see any indication of timeframe other than 'please stand by'.

in a way, that's what we're doing. in my first post i did say "at this point, for a month. maybe two.". but maybe that got lost in the noise.

alasdair

 

[kiely]

I'm seeing the frequent responses in here where Ali is the lone voice of

And yes he does have a voice.

~~~



Oh and my ( comment input ) :

And still is sad that it had to affect and divide everything else completely from this community forum. Politics have always been a part of life. Deal with it and don't cry like an infant baby. A big one now.

Knowledge is power also as learning from each other as well.

Just leave it to flow or they have to stop attacking each other and creating narrative but instead try more for a healthy reaction and fact and source input.

And stop the extreme vindictiveness and violating of each other. Is it possible to have composure from the nature of that beast ! I do have hope and my faith in it all. I would like to have the best possible abilities in me to try now at least.

And no, not anyone's lives are completely forbidden or illegal yet at all. Nor is Social Security. And we all still have rights and legislations. Unless we are profiting from the war mentality of the military industrial complex of it all ... Freedom is our right so please don't abuse it. Try. It can help.

But I do feel that I don't want to comment on this anymore because we all should be the example of what things should be based on such as a fact ... and like harm reduction.

But instead is what is and ... just has to be more of an emotional chaos. Alex Jones used to have a website where they had the real shit diarrhea and vomit regurgitation and commotion that was basis of the entire forum itself. He is the best at what he does. So there ya go. Go tell it to Jones.

I'm too tired for this anymore and unfortunately cannot participate in it on a daily basis and from all of this, and I do find other distractions and ways of life and to go and proceed and continue on, each day forward.

It is sad and awful when this whole topic has to consume someone of their whole life and as a habit as well, though, as a personal preference on this website. The website itself that has a great important need as well as an impact for communities and the whole entire world in general that seems to be quite an imperative necessity and dire need for us here.

Why ruin it with one section of the whole forum that is trying to truly turn everyone's brains to shit at times. It's troll bait for so many in my opinion. And I feel it wasn't intended to be that way for each, ALL or anyone of us. At ALL.

I am quite out of it right now but I found the strength somehow and provoked myself to post this because it just has such a ground zero impact on everyone's lives. And I am expecting this one ( the thread ) to close again. So I wanted to say it now.

Just keep that power and strength in the rest of the forum too please. Prease. Pretty much. I'm sad about 'it' all.

I tried to post correct spellings and sentences but just have to quit with ' all of this.' I am trying to be coherent at this time right now. Grrrr. So yes, why do we have words then if we cannot communicate ! Just try to do a better job at it every time. Like we do with HR. Reduction of Harm. And that is a wonderful thing ... if not tremendous accomplishments. So there is that.

I have to stop though. It just hits so many nerves so hard. It's so difficult to quit once you are ..... into it. So yes again thank you for your time and all of the opportunities. It is so perfect and helps so much always.







Oh fck and .... sori.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

 

[kiely]

the problem is that some users have a very rigid opinion about how people should think and act.
as soon as someone deviates from that opinion, they feel offended. or in most cases, they only take that as reason to make up for their own shortcomings by citing rules and hiding behind laws.
life is not black and white, and neither are people's thoughts and ways of expressing themselves.
maybe if the anal retentiveness could be lowered in favor of open-mindedness, everybody could get along a little better.

That is the most healthiest, sweetest and sincere from the heart comment
that I have read ... (actually ever) from through the entirety of all of this. Wow just Wow. Thank you for your comment. No need to respond because I was just so glad it is here and for me actually being able to read that.

But I guess down to earth doesn't always work. But Gosh Darn It. Thank You For That. Perfect !

 

[kiely]

I edited bc I made typo's but I made my point as well

k

 

[kiely]

the problem is that some users have a very rigid opinion about how people should think and act.
as soon as someone deviates from that opinion, they feel offended. or in most cases, they only take that as reason to make up for their own shortcomings by citing rules and hiding behind laws.
life is not black and white, and neither are people's thoughts and ways of expressing themselves.
maybe if the anal retentiveness could be lowered in favor of open-mindedness, everybody could get along a little better.

But you can only react with one emoji. Not two.

And. For you !!! .... emoji too.

thank you

 

[-=SS=-]

maybe it's not anal retentiveness. and open-mindedness goes both ways.

Again you say this, but that's not how it has played out in CEPs. Here are three examples:

1. I'll give the example I have mentioned in the "Explanation for recent staff events and future staff obligations, criticism & discussion welcome" thread, involving @fairynymph. She made a post where the word eugenics was used. Immediately this blew up - in the aforementioned thread above, it was celebrated that she ("Nazi") is now banned - when the context of what she was saying was not what her detractors assumed it all meant. They saw the word eugenics and defaulted to the worst possible assumption they could possibly make. It had to be pointed out that there are qualities to the concept of eugenics, it's not just about camps and ovens.

2. The covid thread, the last little exchange before it was locked. Myself getting branded as a "science denier" by @4sdkfhu3498 or whatever he's called, and also being called a "psychopath".. and the way it was done was "oh, i'm not an expert but this thinking of yours could be seen as psychopathic.. so don't hold me responsible for that observation". Like what the fuck is that?

And that's just one example of a repeating pattern seen across the entire forum, where someone raises a point of contention, evidence is demanded by the accusing party which they know can never actually satisfy them, and then that is used to turn around and stone the accused with labels and personal digs in an attempt to just blow up the conversation entirely. Time and again this same pattern is repeated. And it's coming predominantly from the same type of character, the left-leaning and/or the conventional narrative followers, who are not open-minded at all.

I also gave the example of Arralls behaviour in the thread quoted above, where he was pointed for this type of behaviour by myself. Literally jumping in and calling someone a 'bootlicker', blowing up the thread.

3. And of course, my user handle, SS. I can remember two incidents specifically off the top of my head, one recently (again involving Arrall), where the topic of discussion is not going in the direction they personally approve of, and so they attempt to blow up the thread by going for that personal dig when they have nothing else to offer. This is perhaps the best example actually, because it is pure projection. They see SS and jump to the worst possible conclusion, that I'm a Nazi - and as everyone knows, the left in the past decade have had a real problem with that word and calling all their detractors a Nazi.

 

[mal3volent]

But, looking at it from where the admin/owner are, it really begs the question of if it is worth keeping. Everytime this question has arisen, I believe we've kept it open, modifying the rules and possibly changing up moderators while reminding members to behave or face the consequences....and yet, we keep returning to this question. Status quo ain't working.

In what way is it not working? Prior to the purge, we had (by all accounts) a fantastic mod team there. All the tools necessary to deal with trouble makers who can't handle political talk without insults. Two or three clicks, they're gone-- the forum becomes invisible to them.

The system works. The idea that it doesn't is pure fantasy. Maybe one legitimate problem is you don't have people wiling to staff it right now. Well... exactly whose fault is that? What recent event caused the mod team that was in place to dismantle?

Also, since no one answered the last time, why is the discord allowed to have their political section but we aren't? If it's about "serving the mission"? If it doesn't serve the mission here, it doesn't there either. But there's an ongoing issue of double standards, and the discord being able to operate under a different set of rules. That's how it has always been. (One reason I was taken to the public square and guillotined... I wouldn't shut up about this undeniable fact).

I'm seeing the frequent responses in here where Ali is the lone voice of staff, which inevitably paints him as 'the guy' against all the members clammoring for CEPS to remain. I really don't believe Ali wants it closed, but he's not getting any support from his co-admin on this right now. So, it leaves me wondering, what's the play here? I am certain he is honest in saying it isn't just up to him on decision making, but the others aren't putting energy into trying to work with members in this thread, which is unfortunate for Ali.

I agree it is unfair to Ali. Everyone knows he is only here representing the overall consensus of senior staff. It's obvious he personally would like cep to remain in some form since he posts there more than anyone else in this thread and has already expressed support for an opt in system. But if he volunteered to make this thread, and the other admin are choosing to stay silent, what else are we supposed to do other than direct our opinions to him? That's on them, not us.

 

[kiely]

I'm glad this is still open ( the thread ) for ALL.

hi mal

Anyway thank you for All.

I am hearing everyone loud and clear now. hehee

No .... that is a good thing and I am just happy for that.

So this is a very good thread and ... amazing that it is still open for comment.

I think it can be worked through and is still open and wonderful to read.

Or are those forums closed down. I will have to go look and see now.

Anyway thank you. Very much.


I will go look see.

 

[kiely]

edit : everyone

all

 

[alasdairm]

involving @fairynymph. She made a post where the word eugenics was used

fairnymph was banned for more than just using the word eugenics.

and also being called a "psychopath"

that content was removed in a timely manner. what more did you want?

calling someone a 'bootlicker'

he received an infraction for that which tripped a temporary ban. what more did you want?

And of course, my user handle, SS.

maybe you missed these:

that's not fair man.

-=SS=- has said on a few occasions that his handle has nothing to do with the german paramilitary organization. let's take him at his word?

And I apologize for my assumptions and the ad hominem @-=SS=-.
Regardless of our differences and disagreements, I was out of line and I’m sorry.

what more did you want?

alasdair

 

[-=SS=-]

fairnymph was banned for more than just using the word eugenics.

Nothing I saw was ban worthy. She held strong right-wing views. I disagreed with some of her positions, but none that I saw in CEPs was ban worthy.

what more did you want?

Here we go again. You're doing exactly what I have pointed out is the problem in CEPs.. you have just tried to spin this back on to me, as if the issue is me;

The point for all of those was that they happened, not that I want anything more done now. They are all instances of where the discussion was bombed by those individuals.