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The Big & Dandy Volumetric Liquid Measurement thread

C

Church

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May 3, 2004
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Welcome to the Big & Dandy Liquid Measurement Thread

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It is both vital that you buy a milligram scale if you want to experiment with just about any pure compound active under 100 mg, as well as properly using the Liquid Measurement technique. Liquid Measurement is especially important if your compound is active under 10 mg: the single digit milligram range!
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[original post:]

Well, guess what, guys? I don't really know what happened to it, but I noticed tonight that the old liquid measurement thread was nowhere to be found. I tried searching for it, but to no avail. So, let's start another one!

This is the safest and best way to measure out accurate doses of potent compounds without the use of an expensive, lab-grade analytical balance!

Liquid measurement, for those of you who don't know, is the process of taking a known quantity of a pure compound, and dissolving it in a known volume of solvent. The solvent can be water, ethanol, or a number of other ingestible liquids, depending on the properties of the compound being dissolved.

For instance, suppose someone were to get a hold of a DOx substance, but they don't have a scale accurate enough to weigh out a single 3mg dose... what he could do instead, is weigh out 100mg (less margin for error), and dissolve it in 100mL of water, which, for you non-mathematical types out there, equals 1mg of substance per 1mL of water. Even further mathematical analysis reveals that 3mL of this solution would have to be ingested in order to achieve a dose of 3mg. Sounds easy enough, right?

So this is the place to post questions, comments, or concerns regarding this technique. Any tips or tricks? Any suggestions on what solvents work best on what molecules? That kind of thing...
 
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One thing you have to account for is displacement. For example:

1000mg chem + 100ml dh20 = ~101ml of solution

It's not much, but you know..

I like use a volumetric flask, that has markings for say 100ml. I first add the chemical, and add dh20 till it reaches the specified ml mark.

I suggest this method even if you have a scale (and you know you should), just because it's quite easy.
 
This is my contribution to this topic:

[copied and pasted from the link you provided... :) -church]

However the liquid solution dosing method is very very accurate if done correctly. Let's say, for example, that you have exactly 1 gram of chemical z, and you purchase a 200 ml bottle of everclear (which is exactly 200 ml) brand rocket fuel, I mean, grain alcohol, and you dissolve that 1 gram of chemical z into that 200 ml of everclear. You would now have 5 milligrams of chemical z in every 1 milliliter of alcohol. At this point you would obtain a 10 ml baby/oral syringe available at any pharmacy (the walgreen's brand one is recommended as it has 0.2 ml graduations (i.e. markings)). Then measuring is simple - let's say you want to obtain 16 mg of chemical z - you would simply measure out:

16 mg * ( 1 ml / 5 mg) = 3.2 ml (NOT 80 ml)
or
16 mg * 0.2 ml/mg = 3.2 ml

When measured out with an oral syringe, 3.2 ml is a lot more liquid than you'd think, and therefore relatively easy to measure out. This method is also very handy for measuring DOx, where the innaccuracies of even 0.001 g scales can lead to major dose discrepancies.


Disclaimer: If you don't understand the math involved, *buy a scale*. Also, everclear does come in 1 liter bottles. 1 gram in 1 liter is 1 mg/ml, which is very easy to figure out and measure super-accurately.


Oh yeah, 21 ml of 190 proof everclear (26.5 ml of 151 proof for states where 190 is illegal) has the same amount of alcohol as a single shot of 80 proof liquor (such as most vodka, whiskey, rum, etc). Everclear has some advantages over other liquids such as distilled water or 80 proof vodka, such as better dissolvability in it, it's still drinkable (although it tastes horrible), the alcohol speeds up the body's absorption of anything dissolved in it, and it evaporates faster when left in open air (which could be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your application.)



Formulae:

(FullBottleVolume ml) / (AmountOfSubstanceDissolved mg) = (SolutionRatio ml/mg)

(DesiredDose mg) * (SolutionRatio ml/mg) = (DesiredVolume ml)
Click to expand...


Also, in my experience other 2c-x compounds have dissolved extremely well in alcohol, I'm sure 2c-e will too.
 
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Pharmacies usually sell oral syringes for dosing liquid medicine, I use one that looks like a large eye dropper and is scored every half mL.
 
It is the best way to weigh compounds active at 4 mg or less in my experiance. If you use ethanol, the compound can sometimes be used sublingually al a salvia tincture. Not recomended for all compounds though.
 
Actually, a compound can be used sublingually if it's dissolved in water. It can even be used sublingually if you pour the powder into your mouth and swish it around mixed with your saliva. But putting it in alcohol does increase absorbtion in this way.

I used to use liquid measurement for everything before I got a milligram scale. Nowadays I measure things out on my scale that are active in doses of 10mg or more, except for certain ones with a very narrow dose-response curve like 2C-E, which I still liquid measure.

No one should be measuring the DOXs in any way but liquid unless they have access to a sub-milligram lab quality scale.

It's also very important to note that liquid measurement is only accurate if you know for sure your starting dose. Obtaining an alleged gram ofa substance from a supplier is not good enough, either, because they very often provide inaccurate amounts, even the reliable ones. If you have something like DOC that you're wanting to liquid measure, you should weigh out some amount, say 100mg, with a milligram scale, since larger amounts are more accurate to measure. You may be off by 2 mgs in either direction, but then if you made a solution with 100 mL of water, you'd end up with each mL containing between .98 and 1.02mg of substance, which is much more accurate than trying to weigh out a single dose of, say 6mg of DOC. In that case, your dose could be anywhere from 4 to 8mg!
 
thugg said:
One thing you have to account for is displacement. For example:

1000mg chem + 100ml dh20 = ~101ml of solution

It's not much, but you know..

I like use a volumetric flask, that has markings for say 100ml. I first add the chemical, and add dh20 till it reaches the specified ml mark.

I suggest this method even if you have a scale (and you know you should), just because it's quite easy.
Click to expand...


I do not think this is the case. The volume of the solvent isn't necessarily going to rise like that with the addition of a solute. At the very least, adding a gram of different compounds will most certainly not raise the volume by 1mL for each compound. Adding a gram of water would since it has a density of about 1g/mL at normal pressure, but this is not the case for everything.
 
Well I didn't know for sure.. I was just assuming that by adding a certain amount of a chemical to a known amount of solvent would increase the overall volume of the solution.. It makes sense to me, but whatever.

It has to at some point.. If you add 5grams of DOC into 250ml of water, it would almost have to increase the volume to more than 250ml of solution.. But then again, the molecules of the DOC might be able to "hide" in the gaps between the other molecules of h20.. So I don't know :)
 
Would anyone have any use for a stand alone calculator to do this sort of calculation?
 
Shouldn't have to... You just divide the mg total by the ml total..

500mg 2C-E in 100ml dh20 = 5mg/1mL

Pretty easy stuff..
 
thugg said:
Shouldn't have to... You just divide the mg total by the ml total..

500mg 2C-E in 100ml dh20 = 5mg/1mL

Pretty easy stuff..
Click to expand...
Yeah but to find the actual amount of liquid to achieve a dose.

basically enter amount of drug, amount of water and the desired dosage, and it will tell you how much liquid to take to get the desired does.

your example is easy to do. its abit harder for smaller doses with less regular amounts.
 
Well, if you want to eat 15mg of 2C-E, using the information above, you need to ingest 3ml of the solution..

If it's still confusing you, you could try a solution that's at a 1:1 ratio. 1mg/1ml, then it's really easy to dose out, but kind of a bitch for storage (if dealing with a lot)
 
thugg said:
Well I didn't know for sure.. I was just assuming that by adding a certain amount of a chemical to a known amount of solvent would increase the overall volume of the solution.. It makes sense to me, but whatever.

It has to at some point.. If you add 5grams of DOC into 250ml of water, it would almost have to increase the volume to more than 250ml of solution.. But then again, the molecules of the DOC might be able to "hide" in the gaps between the other molecules of h20.. So I don't know :)
Click to expand...

a simple solution:Just add the compound before you add all the water and then it will account for it's volume in the measurement.I always use 1ml of distilled water/everclear per dose.
 
^ Are you using a 50/50 everclear/water mixture?

By the way, this would be a good place to mention that when storing in straight water, be careful about bacterial growth. That's why I recommend using an ethanol blend whenever possible.
 
The initial post in that thread says: "That said, let's have this thread focus on solubility, not an explanation of liquid measurement for n00bs." Such an explanation is, I believe, the purpose of this thread. But OTOH, I think the presence of that thread will prevent this thread from going too far.
 
Church was referring to the thread I linked, as there exists no other mega liquid measurement thread.
 
trip.more said:
a simple solution:Just add the compound before you add all the water and then it will account for it's volume in the measurement.
Click to expand...

Yeah.. Why I said that in my first post ;)

I also rec a ethanol/distilled water mixture.. Though I have used regular tap water before, and it works just fine. But I would only do that when I knew that it wouldn't be sitting around for too long. Distilled water is just as easy to use as tap water, and can be found at nearly any grocery/convenience store, and you don't need to be 21 to acquire it (like ethanol for instance)
 
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