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The Big & Dandy Syrian Rue & Harmala MAOI Alkaloids Thread

Harmala/ine freebase

Hello,

Powdered harmala/harmaline freebase. If one were to replace the common ingredients containing MAOI's (caapi, rue) in a ayahuasca brew, how much of this freebase would one need instead? Have yet to find a dosing for extracted freebase.

Also, it will mix with mimosa hostilis in the tea. How much nausea should be expected?

Edit: Found reference suggesting the ingestion of 150mg harmaline freebase + 100mg DMT freebase works wonderfully. Another source says 200mg. Anything further like this is appreciated.
 
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120mg to 150mg should be sufficient. Check out Ott's book called "Ayahuasca Analogues" as it details many experiments with ayahuasca plants, as well as synthetic chemical analogues.
 
One last bit of a question here..

Can it be smoked? What is the dosage like for a 'huasca and how is it gauged? Thanks very much.
 
Haven't found the answer to this unfortunately..

25-750 mg harmine (see effects) is ingested on an empty stomach. In its hydrochloride form harmine may be snuffed (20-200 mg). Injection dosages are smaller: SC 40-70 mg; IV 10-30 mg. Absorbed poorly through stomach.
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What is SC? A type of injection?

I'm thinking smoking might be more potent.
 
smoking Harmala won't produce as long-lasting an effect as ingesting, when used alone as well as when used to enhance other psychedelics
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Gracie and Zarkov suggest 50mg smoked extract to acheive effective results.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Here is something interesting, as well:
[After smoking harmala extract, DMT was smoked]
The overall impact of the trip was heightened far above the normally
only threshold effects of a 15 mg dose of DMT. Subjectively, the dose felt
more like 34-45 mg or roughly tripled in intensity.
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The Big and Dandy Harmala/ MAOI-alkaloids thread (New!)

I'm suprised! This one is often overlooked as just an ingredient in ayahuasca admixtures, and many do not consider it to be a worthwhile recreational drug.

Personally I have much experience with harmaline and related compounds, and I believe they are worthwhile when used alone (not alongside DMT). Harmala actually has quite a history of use in non-western cultures and some myth & folklore that go back many many years.

If there were a Big & Dandy Harmala thread it should cover the following things which *have* been seen in use:
Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue / Aspand / Esfand)
"Ayahuasca" Banisteriopsis caapi vine - sans DMT
Passionflower, other natural sources
Extractions of these natural sources
Synthetic Harmaline, Harmine, Tetrahydroharmine, as salts or base

If that B&D thread were to be all-encompassing, in it would be discussed people's experiences with taking the beta-carbolines alone, but should not disclude using harmalas for potentiation of other tryptamines.

I have seen some people taking harmala by itself, with mixed reports. Some get extreme nausea. Others won't consider it because of the "MAOI diet".

I have also seen most sources apply a pharmaceutical-strength MAOI dietary warning to harmala, while others claim that harmala alkaloids do not pose a significant risk with tyramine metabolism.

Anyways I'm throwing some ideas out there for how a Big&Dandy Harmala thread could be.

My experience with harmala began four years ago. Since then I've been a fanatic, making plenty of extractions, experimenting with synthetic harmaline and harmine, taking in doses varying from a little to a little too much. It surprises me that there is not much more info out there, and what is, exists in texts from times past.

Still, harmala is an experience enough for me to return to it time and again. Does anyone else have any comments they would like to add about this?
 
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Good thread idea :).

I would like to see some discussion on the subjective differences between p. harmala and the synthetic derivatives (Harmaline, Harmine, Tetrahydroharmine, etc), and smoked vs. oral and other methods of administration.
 
I find smoking freebase extracts of P. harmala, I cannot get to the same levels I get with dosing orally. The effect I get is of a different, much lighter quality, too.

Eating extracted salts in gelcaps, I rarely even get hints of nausea. I dose 200mg every 1-1.5 hours, until I'm where I want to be.

When I tried smoking synthetic harmine freebase, it was again, light and... barely noticeable.

When I had synthetic harmaline HCl, this was great for insufflation as it didn't burn much (I wouldn't reccomend snorting extracted salts unless you like the feeling of nasal inferno). Taken this route in high doses the subjective effects were indistinguishable from extracts of harmala (manske/hasenfratz method). This includes, auditory buzzing, music sounding faster and bass tones pitch-shifted down (making music sound nonharmonic). Visually, slight flickering and noticeable trails in perhipery. And, expansion of thought (more on that later).

I have taken a purge-causing dose of extract one time. Afterwards, my entire vision was affected by these trails, and it was daytime.

The mental effects I get from larger doses is that of curious pondering and cosmic thought. Seeming almost like hypomania my thoughts wander from one topic to another, going off on tangents but analyzing these topics to an amazing depth and magnitude.

I tend to be very logical & analytical and have hobbies that relate to this quality. While in a state of harmala I tend to come up with many ideas, and my thoughts go very fast. This is why I mentioned it resembles hypomania. However, I've never had bad anxiety or aftereffects from harmala use.

It is worth noting that the seeds of syrian rue contain other (anticholinergic) compounds which may cause nausea; apparently the manske/hasenfratz method extracts only the harmala alkaloids.

It is also worth noting that, when I began to use harmala, I would get the "essential tremor" induced by harmaline. This occurred with the synthetic harmaline as well. But, after using up 10g of the synthetic stuff, and after more extractions, etc happening over multiple years, I find that now when I take harmala I do not get any noticeable tremor.
 
Thread big and dadified :)

Personally, I like to keep any MAOI use at a minimum. If I don't absolutely need it, I simply do not use it, period.

MAOIs are one "psychedelic" that no one really needs, and using them "recreationally" is putting yourself at grave risk.
 
please, compare synthetic vs. natural sources (extractions of all levels from a soak and filter to a acid-base) if you've tried both.

hopefully the synthetic version causes less nausea.
 
In my limited experience, Passionflower spp. are NOT MAOI's of any significance. I have never potentiated anything with extremely large amounts of the plant material.... Jamshyd, I'm slightly altering the thread title TO INCLUDE the term MAOI as well.... I think it still should stand that we keep the discussion on the beta-carboline MAOI's though, as opposed to any pharms.
 
In my experience, Syrian Rue can add its own character to the experience, way beyond simple potentiation.

The best way I have found to ingest the seeds is to grind them to a powder and encapsulate them. The first time I tried them I made the mistake of chewing them. :!

Smoking the seeds in a bong is also very pleasant. Syrian Rue is the nicest tasting smoke I can think of.

Something I haven't tried yet, is to smoke a bit while tripping. If I remember correctly, the McKenna brothers smoked Banisteriopsis Caapi bark with mushrooms in their infamous Amazon excursion and it seemed to work pretty well. Syrian Rue seeds have a higher % of harmala alkaloids (although in a different ratio), so you would have to smoke less plant matter than with other sources.

It could also be a lot easier to titrate the MAOI effect with smoking. Has anyone tried this?
 
I believe rue has a higher ratio of Harmaline to Harmine, while caapi is mostly Harmine.

Someone correct me please if I'm wrong :).

Willow: Thanks, no problem!
 
IME beta-carboline MAOIs with mushrooms is too intense. Same with 5-meo-dmt and harmala - this combination has been reported to be toxic.

From http://www.iranica.com/articles/v8f6/v8f615.html
Folk medicine practices reflect a classical belief in the medical properties of esfand, while attributing a number of magico-medical properties to it. It is considered to be a divinely favored plant which can cure seventy-two varieties of ailments the least severe of which is leprosy (Majles^, pp. 220-21; Qom^, I, p. 245). Furthermore, the smoke from its burning seeds is believed to ward off harm from persons or places that are exposed to its smoke.
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Also:
Shi¿ite sources tell of the benefits of ingesting esfand or its juice. For instance, drinking a bit of esfand juice every day for forty mornings brings about wisdom in addition to fortifying the imbiber against seventy varieties of diseases (Qom^, I, p. 245).
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This to me says, at least in some cultures this substance has been consumed, and in some cases consumed daily. The significance of this is to show it has been used in this manner before. Of course this doesn't mean consuming harmala is safe.

Now, as for the MAO business. I think it is important that a clear definition of harmala's MAO activity be had.

From http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=146575
The MAO Inhibitors can be further categorized based on their reversibility and their selectivity.

Selectivity
There are two MAO enzymes that are involved when people discuss MAO inhibitors. Like LDL and HDL cholesterols, they have been somewhat inappropriately labeled, "good" and "bad" MAO enzymes. The first enzyme, MAO-A, is known as the "good" one. The inhibition of this enzyme is responsible for some of the desirable anti-depressant activity as it allows a greater amount of neurotransmitters, specifically norepinephrine, serotonin and dopamine, to accumulate unmolested at the receptor sites in the synaptic cleft. The second enzyme, MAO-B, is known as the "bad" one. This enzyme degrades only dopamine from the neurotransmitter group. Selectivity refers to the ability of an MAO inhibitor to target a specific MAO enzyme while not disturbing the other. The majority of the current MAO inhibitors non-selectively target both "good" and "bad" MAO enzymes. Both MAO enzymes disable tyramine, so selectively inhibiting one of the two (usually MAO-A) leaves one to manage tyramine and greatly reduces the danger associated with traditional non-selective MAO inhibitors. From this, it should be clear that "good" and "bad" are misnomers and only serve as arbitrary labels.

Reversibility
The reversibility of the MAO inhibitors is based upon the mechanism by which the MAO inhibitors act on the MAO enzymes. Non-reversible MAO inhibitors form bonds with the MAO enzymes that are very difficult to sever. For all intents and purposes, once the MAO inhibitor has bonded to the MAO enzyme, it is out of the game for the duration. Further synthesis of MAO enzymes is required to rebuild the MAO enzyme population. The reversible MAO inhibitors can be displaced from the MAO enzymes by tyramine so that the danger of the so-called "cheese effect" (the heightened risk from tyramine which is often found in aged cheeses, among other foods) is significantly reduced.

It should be noted that not all cheeses contain tyramine in levels that should cause concern. Cream cheese, ricotta and generally any processed cheese or unaged cheese is "safe" when using MAO inhibitors of any type. Also, despite common misconception, bananas are relatively safe, whereas banana peels are not as the peels contain significant amounts of tyramine.
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Harmala alkaloids have been shown to be reversible inhibitors of MAO type A. The above quotation supports the idea that the MAOI dietary restrictions are significantly reduced. I can attest to this, having continued my American diet while using these alkaloids.

Everyone is different though. I read somewhere that this "cheese syndrome" was not known for some time, and people on the pharma-MAOIs didn't follow a special diet, until a few patients taking them reacted. Some people apparently are more tolerant to tyramine.

Additionally, I would believe consuming harmala via. methods of ingestion other than orally, would concentrate the alkaloids elsewhere, instead of in the gut. So, smoking this should bypass the gut and only minimal levels will be present in the gut (where tyramine metabolism takes place)

One other thing about the activity of beta-carbolines: MAO is found inside cells, on mitochondrial membranes. The harmala alkaloids are brought into a cell by serotonin transporters. Somewhere I read that when consuming ayahuasca, DMT is not broken down because both (a) MAO is inhibited and (b) these transporters are being occupied such that DMT is never taken into a cell (where the MAO is) in the first place, contributing to prevention of DMT metabolism. Again I have no source to back this up and I'm just repeating what I read somewhere, so please, if you know more than I do on this matter, please enlighten us.
 
Great idea! Thanks for starting it. I've linked to this in the Best of PD page.

EDIT: Jamshyd beat me to it. :)

EDIT 2: Thanks e1evene1even, for the Erowid links. I added them to the external information section that I added to the first post. I should really finish adding those to each B&D thread.
 
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Most excellent thread, and I belive special thanks are in order to smot2k3 for the above posts. In all my experiences with ayahuasca I have not noticed a great cheese effect, except for one time I actually consumed some very aged cheese on purpose on it (don't do this, I am a professional madman ;) ) I've found the nausea to be much more common when consuming DMT containing plants and extracts than harmala alone. In fact, I've never experienced nausea, or other such complaints from consuming harmala or harmal extracts alone, but then I've not noticed considerable psychedelic effects from harmala alone either.
 
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