Health The Big & Dandy Psychedelics & Mental Illness Thread

[Grinders Kiefers]

I've never heard of this - everything I've read suggests otherwise...

Maybe he somehow confused schizophrenia with cluster headaches? 8)

 

[IamMe90]

Treating mentally ill patients with psilocybin and LSD was commonplace in the early stages of psychedelic research. Tim Leary has published about this in regards to some of the first experiments done within the Harvard Psilocybin Project. A large collection of case histories is collected in the book The Secret Chief, largely about the work of Leo Zeff and his group, and the treatment of the mentally ill patients with LSD, mescaline and psilocybin. Stanislav Grof conducted early research in Prague etc. It is well covered in the scientific and popular literature. I'm surprised that you have never heard anything about it, honestly.

The most current research I've heard about has tended to show that psychedelics exacerbate or bring to surface latent symptoms in schizophrenics.

 

[Dondante]

Psilocybin has been used to cure schizophenia both in a medical and non-medical setting. Why are you concerned? In what way is she 'schizoprenic'? What do you mean by that?

If psilocybin "cured schizophrenia," then it probably wasn't schizophrenia to begin with. Psychedelics and chronic psychotic disorders are generally contraindicated.

 

[Dondante]

Did you read the books and research studies that I mentioned?

Actually, I have.

There is (at least preliminary) evidence that psychedelic therapy can be helpful in the treatment of a wide variety of psychiatric conditions (e.g. end-of-life anxiety in terminal cancer, addictions, addressing depression or maladaptive personality traits in the context of psychotherapy), but there is no such evidence that psychedelics are effective in the treatment of chronic psychotic conditions (e.g. schizophrenia). I've read Leo Zeff's and Stan Grof's books along with much of the current/past research, and generally researchers/therapists have screened out folks with chronic psychotic disorders due to the concern that psychedelics may exacerbate these conditions. AFAIK, there is no good evidence that psychedelics are safe and effective for individuals with psychosis.

Please enlighten me if you know otherwise.

 

[Foreigner]

Mushroom use is dubious when it comes to schizophrenia, and as you are not a trained psychotherapist I think you are tempting fate with this "therapy" as sekio said.

Schizophrenia responds better to NMDA antagonism and tends to have volatile reactions to 5-ht agonism.

I just wouldn't do it. You're in over your head if it goes wrong.

 

[Dondante]

Discussions on the treatment of childhood schizophrenia with psychedelics:
http://www.matrixmasters.net/salon/?p=32
http://www.matrixmasters.net/salon/?p=188

I've seen that write-up. It's a series of case reports from 1963 in which the psychiatrists gave young, severely disturbed children various doses of LSD, psilocybin, methamphetamine, and chlordiazepoxide in an inpatient hospital setting...no comparison/control group, no standardized measures, no long-term follow-up, no reporting on adverse events. It's deeply troubling to me that a study like this was approved. It's anything but credible evidence that psychedelics are safe or effective for individuals with chronic psychosis.

p.s. I thought the idea of giving severely disturbed children psychedelics was fucked up enough, but what do you make of this?

"... We have also learned that it is important to abort the defensive maneuvers of the patient. For example, if the
patient tried to rid himself of mounting tension and anxiety by motor activity, we abort this unproductive release
of anxiety and do not allow its expression. We will hold the patient very firmly and not let him move. If he tries
to handle anxiety by repeating questions to give him his “reality contact” we refuse to talk to him. If he tries to
handle anxiety by compulsive movements and activities, we again restrain the patient. In this way, the anxiety
and tension builds so that its eruption is to a new level of awareness or consciousness."​

Now that is just appalling.

 

[johannes kreisler]

^that is torture.

well, psychedelics have a tendency to manifest the mind. if a mind is ill-prepared for a psychedelic experience, the self might very well "dissolute" into incoherent chaos. and this is pretty much the state a schizophrenic is in during a psychotic episode. say the positive symptoms of schizophrenia.
it's obvious that a person with schizophrenic tendencies is MUCH more likely to develop dissolution of the self when confronted with a psychedelic as it's not the 'first ascent' - or 'descent' respectively into that state of mind.

NMDA-agonism seems even more dangerous to me as it mimics the full spectrum of schizophrenia. positive and negative symptoms (btw: I think a NMDA-hypothesis of schizophrenia is much more convincing than the current dopa-hypothesis for exactly this fact). a hole-dose on the other hand might - as well as a positive 5-ht2a-experience - promote a positive reintegration of previously disintegrated faculties of the self and/or strengthen the integrity of the self...

for all those reasons I believe PDs might help a schizophrenic in a curative way - if the preparation and guidance is absolutely state of the art and the subject is stable enough to consent into that adventure.
if there is the slightest acute psychotic tendency I'd expect a full blown psychotic episode before there is any chance/time to set any intervention. so this depends very much on the personality and etiology and state of the disorder.
OP: do you know what you're doing? I don't believe you have to be a psychiatrist to know what you're doing, some people are intuitively very reliable in those matters - but I'd suggest you to reflect every step you're taking...

 

[2002Tii]

^lol at this guy calling Dodante a kid and stupid

To stay on topic I'm gonna side with the people who say it should be avoided, it would be terrible to revert all the progress she's made just to try mushrooms. Either way keep us updated and definitely have a plan and a sitter if things are to go awry.

 

[johannes kreisler]

fixingahole: did you read my post?

may I ask you on which professional qualification you base your conclusions?
research conducted before "the ban" can generally be discarded as the protocols and theories the experiments were based upon do not meet contemporary scientific standards.

your way of arguing is indecent and potentially harmful. I'd advise you be more modest or I/someone will report you!..

 

[Magickduck]

Just make sure she takes a low dose.
/QUOTE]

well first of all it seems it is YOU who is set on her taking it, but if she does yes do a low dose. I myself have schizoaffective tendancies and I have a friend who is schizophrenic, low doses of mushrooms (as in .3-.4 penis envy or 1g cubensis) seems to do that trick just fine, if not being a bit overwhelming at points.

 

[Solipsis]

It seems very unwise to me and not possibly worth the risks, if she is making a miraculous recovery don't do anything to ruin it.
In any case, don't just pick random mushrooms but be positive about what species you think you are picking and about what similar species it is not, and why/how you determined this. Secondly, be aware of the dose by getting a scale. People who are stable and very experienced with mushrooms can get their ass handed to them with eyeballing but they would not have the same background. A person like you are describing has no business taking psychedelics, let alone an unknown dose of wild picks.

Also, you mention that she is 'as good as' off her medication. Virtually tapered to zero is not the same as zero, what is she taking and at what dose is she now? There are plenty of psychiatric meds that have interactions with drugs like mushrooms, often making the effects weaker or stronger.

And people, psychedelic effects have been called psychotomimetic for a reason: the threshold is lowered for experiencing highly subjective things without them having much base in actual existence such as patterns (visual or synchronicity-like, etc) and projected emotions and a lot of other mental processes superimposed over the world as it is looked at, as well as being suggestive of a world filled with possible answers and even more questions e.g. the spiritual world.
I am always certainly one for academic peer reviewed claims, but if you really need studies to back up that such effects as I just described are potentially harmful for schizophrenics / those with psychosis in- or excluding paranoid delusions... I think you are being (intentionally) naieve and maybe biased to give psychedelics a little bit too much credit because of the positive value and potential they do have. I don't think schizophrenics deserve to be deprived of spiritual meaning or theories involving patterns and dynamics, but they seem better unprovoked and destabilized - let them take the time to work things out on their own, tentatively and with supervision. My guess is that more often than not they are sensitive individuals who might rather see too much than too little. Be extremely careful catalyzing what you don't understand. And be even more careful about claiming to understand something.

 

[steve022]

She shouldn't take them. She has made a miraculous recovery and is feeling good about things and it would be so sad to see her jinx it by one night of taking mushrooms. Life is something to be appreciated not toyed with like that. Recently I had a bad trip where I began to question my sanity due to the mental fuckery i was experiencing from the drugs (i was in the wrong frame of mind at the time, wrong setting, wrong mood but it could happen to anyone even if you do prepare. i thought i was pretty well prepared for the trip). I got stuck in a horrible thought loop of worrying if I could "lose it" and go ozzy osbourne status any minute. I figured it was impossible but the mere thought of suddenly becoming a vegetable scared me which led to this circular thought loop of am i going crazy, could i go crazy from drugs like my folks scared me with, probably not and then right back to asking myself if i was nuts over and over again for about an hour or two at least. Since this trip i have cured myself of the sense of boredom and depression i have experienced for years. i urge your friend to do what i have been doing the past few days which is simply enjoying life without drugs but just savoring the moment because life is a precious thing. im sure i will be tripping again after this experience but for her that one trip could be the end of her recovery. who knows maybe it would go ok but i wouldn't bet on it. psychadelics are very safe drugs in those without underlying tendencies to psychosis, but since they mess with our "reality" it is very dangerous for a schizophrenic she could get stuck in a bad trip and never come back. when a non-psychotic person takes psychadelics although they may act "crazy" or "strange" if they have a bad trip and/or take a high enough dose a schizophrenic or psychotic person could take the drugs and the intense emotions of the experience could essentially just send them tripping for years on end

 

[Captain.Heroin]

This is tempting fate, I wouldn't even bother.

I say go for it.

Scizophrenia is a living nightmare. If I had a choice between contracting schizohprenia, and self-immolation, I would go with the latter.

It's easy to talk about schizophrenia as if it's treatable ... until you've watched someone go through it and get no help from medications.

 

[Solipsis]

I say go for it.

Scizophrenia is a living nightmare. If I had a choice between contracting schizohprenia, and self-immolation, I would go with the latter.

It's easy to talk about schizophrenia as if it's treatable ... until you've watched someone go through it and get no help from medications.

While that must be horrible, to see someone go through that without learning to cope better over time, I think it would go too far to just assume that it is hopeless for all schizophrenics. Apparently there are people who can manage a life with the right medication. Don't you think your post might be kind of offensive to those people?

 

[Purpureal]

I say go for it.

Scizophrenia is a living nightmare. If I had a choice between contracting schizohprenia, and self-immolation, I would go with the latter.

It's easy to talk about schizophrenia as if it's treatable ... until you've watched someone go through it and get no help from medications.

Some have also watched someone go through it, get no help from medication, then become asymptomatic after finding the right therapeutic approach that worked for them.

Schizophrenia is treatable. What is muddying the waters of any debate about it a bit is the cavalier fashion in which some psychiatrists go about diagnosing people with it. It is to a certain extent a "catch-all" label applied to patients with a wide spectrum of symptoms (at least this is the case where I am from). Perhaps some schizophreniacs will not respond to any medication or known forms of therapy - yet others certainly can and do respond.

Poxdog, a word of advice regarding something that, I believe, has not been mentioned yet - make sure that your friend trips in an environment where any involvement of the authorities can be virtually ruled out, even in case she goes into full freakout mode with all the kicking and screaming that it may entail . With mushrooms, there is probably no good reason (sans an unlikely seizure) why an intervention by medical professionals should be neccessary, anyway. If your friend does get arrested/placed into a mental hospital, and admits to using mushrooms as a schizophrenia sufferer with prior history of hospitalisation, chances are she will have a hard time getting out, even if she returns to a sane mental state once the trip has subsided. To say that psychiatrists do not take kindly to patients going off their meds and experimenting with psychedelics is an understatement.

Being prepared for the worst is the sensible approach here, since there is probably no denying that the chance of a bad reaction is a little higher.

 

[steve022]

my friend told me that psychosis is a near given with schizophrenic patients taking psychadelics. essentially, they remove the barriers between our imagined "worlds" and reality which is why when u close your eyes or simply focus and imagine something while tripping it feels so real. for someone with psychosis they have difficulty differentiating real from imaginary and this leads to a confusion of reality vs imaginary which leads to fear and when someone with these tendencies experiences fear under the influence of psychadelics its just gets them going on their psychotic episode as they are incapable of bringing themselves back and even when the drugs wear off they continue "tripping" due to their mental imbalances. now its key that if she (or anyone) stops communicating with the outside world while tripping (assuming they have not simply gone overboard with the dosage) they are likely psychotic and need to be taken to the hospital

 

[kidklmx]

Look fixingahole, I'm with you in this debate (after all, shamans are often schizophrenic and they are only shamans because they've "beaten" their illness through psychedelics), but you can't deny it's a really tricky situation. I mean, what do we know about schizophrenia? Not a whole lot, and playing with vital receptors like these should definitely raise some alarm-bells.

And even though she might not get worse, I hardly think there'd be any recreational value (the main aspect of this trip I suppose) in tripping with a schizophrenic person. What if people with this condition have a vastly different reaction? What is the proper course if things go wrong? etc. There's not a whole lot of info on this subject, and for an amateur who likes to trip every once and a while (as opposed to a professional who administers psychedelics in a clinical setting) it's just not something I'd recommend.

 

[johannes kreisler]

fixingahole is a troll in my book. just too offensive and provoking, disregarding his views...

his assumption is in the same league as "lsd does not cause bad trips". ...and "4-po-dmt does not provoke psychotic episodes in schizophrenics because it's the food of the gods", right?

hell, every psychedelic can cause negative reactions in ANY subject. it's basic scientific knowledge that schizophrenic tendencies (even borderline) and psychedelics are generally contradicted. if you have the slightest idea about the nature of the psyche and the action of psychedelic drugs you can see why. there are no contemporary research papers on this because NO ETHICAL COMMISSION WOULD EVER APPROVE THIS. UNDER NO FUCKIN CIRCUMSTANCE. NEVER!
this does not mean that PDs can not have positive effects on schizophrenics (very much depending on personality, etiology and current state of the disease) but the risk for a catastrophic reaction is deemed as way too high even in a clinical setting. it's simply not safe. get that?
if I had a significant other with schizophrenic tendencies I might personally take the risk (well, I even did. with DMT. and with good results.) - but suggesting this approach to be safe and preaching it in public is fuckin IRRESPONSIBLE.

I don't say his point of view is completely wrong but it is way too extreme and dangerous - in the name of harm reduction. I'd even go as far as saying he's schizophrenic himself (NOT pejorative) and maybe psilocybin has helped him or he does not know what schizophrenia really is. or he's just trolling.

btw: I pretty much devote the biggest portion of my professional career to the (healing) power of psychedelics. however I would never promote this approach.

 

[sekio]

http://journals.lww.com/neuroreport...duces_schizophrenia_like_psychosis_in.24.aspx

Individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or early onset mental illness should be extremely careful because mushrooms have been known to trigger latent psychological and mental problems.

Users with a history of mental illness should not take hallucinogens, including psilocybin, because they can trigger or aggravate conditions like schizophrenia, mania, or depression.

Psilocybin Induces Acute/Initial Stage Schizophrenia-like Symptoms In Humans Through Serotonin-2 Receptors
http://mycotopia.net/archives/discus/messages/5/133086.html?1081054995

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/313046-shrooms-schizophrenia-!

Whether or not there is evidence that psilocin helps schizoid behaviour, I have always been of the mind that it is next to impossible to tell how someone will respond to a psychedelic ahead of time. There are plenty of anecdotal cases of mentally unstable people taking hallucinogens and damaging their psyche in unpleasant ways.

I can only find one reference that psilocin/LSD may "cure" schizophrenia, and that's this paper, repeated over and over.

I don't know. Personally it seems the benefits are not really worth the risks. And as Soli said, one must be totally free of all serotonin-blocking medication to really get a worthwhile trip.

 

[steve022]

Fixingahole, im not talking about a moment of silence or staring off for the hell of it. shit, those are often some of the most enlightening moments in a trip (for me at least). im talking about someone who is completely unresponsive for hours and if you tap them on the shoulder they don't even look at you and shit like that. not a moment of silence, lots of people get quiet when they trip but im talking about someone who is completely catatonic for hours or is ranting about a chip in their head or something of the like. I get quiet sometimes when I trip, I think everyone does. hell, if you take enough of a psychedelic you might even lose the ability to verbally communicate. a psychotic episode is when they are completely catatonic for a lengthy period of time (e.g. staring at the wall screaming for hours on end) and is unresponsive to anything for a significant period of time or is completely delusional (e.g. "That chip in my head's beeping again") or something of the like. if this happens on a massive dose its probably just the drugs and will wear off but if someone takes a hit of acid and then is ranting on about a chip in their head or just staring into space and totally unresponsive to the outside world for an hour even if you try tapping them on the shoulder or something then yeah id say there might be something seriously wrong. also, I was trying to make the point that someone with psychotic tendencies shouldn't do drugs. From the little bit of knowledge I have about the mind and psychology psychadelics amplify your existing psychological reponses to various situations. stress is what triggers psychosis. during a psychedelic trip there is a very high chance that there could be stressful moments in the trip(bugging out over something, etc. With the amplification of pre-existing psychological tendencies a schizophrenic person could easily "go crazy" if there were any moments of stress or fear during the trip (which could conceivably happen even with the best of preparations). I think that you might be insane, in a purely figurative sense, i don't think you are actually "crazy", however given the extreme level of idiocy you might be slightly retarded i'm not really sure