That's not at all how MDMA is for me, matter a fact when I come down I realize how important people I have in my life really are no matter how well I know them.Both have done a tremendous amount for me and I really don't want to compare these aspects just take it for what it's worth and move on.
The Big & Dandy Phenethylamines vs Tryptamines Thread
- Thread starter QGDOXL
- Start date
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Hey Church, you're right theres no absolute conclusive evidence. In science it is impossible to PROVE something, per se. You can disprove the negation of something, but its a lot more tricky, methodologically, to straight up prove something (side note).
There is evidence that massive doses (way more proportionally than humans normally use) to mice cause brain damage (neurotoxicity). In addition, there is evidence that moderate doses followed by methamphetamine cause neurotoxicity (plus repeated dose of just methylenedioxymethamphetamine).
There is no evidence that single, moderate doses in humans cause brain damage.
From a behavioralist standpoint, MDMA is definitely neurotoxic (depending on how you constrain/define the term). We've observed enough cases of MDMA abuse to know that repeated usage will lead to (semi)permanent brain changes/damage. This is tricky ground, so I'll leave it to the realm of conjecture for now.
I've personally drawn the functional conclusion that MDMA is neurotoxic and should be VERY moderately used. Doesn't it feel like that to you?
There is evidence that massive doses (way more proportionally than humans normally use) to mice cause brain damage (neurotoxicity). In addition, there is evidence that moderate doses followed by methamphetamine cause neurotoxicity (plus repeated dose of just methylenedioxymethamphetamine).
There is no evidence that single, moderate doses in humans cause brain damage.
From a behavioralist standpoint, MDMA is definitely neurotoxic (depending on how you constrain/define the term). We've observed enough cases of MDMA abuse to know that repeated usage will lead to (semi)permanent brain changes/damage. This is tricky ground, so I'll leave it to the realm of conjecture for now.
I've personally drawn the functional conclusion that MDMA is neurotoxic and should be VERY moderately used. Doesn't it feel like that to you?
Well, I've personally never overused it. The most I've ever done, which I consider to be responsible usage, was 125mg followed by another 75mg a couple of hours later. Usually, I don't even supplement my initial 125mg dose. At these levels, no, I don't feel anything toxic about it at all. Quite the opposite, really.
illusion25
Bluelighter
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- Oct 20, 2005
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- 789
for me MDMA was really spiritual the first couple uses.
I rarely use MDMA now because I feel that I cant get anything more from the chemical than what it has already taught me. Plus I hate the MDMA comedown and shitty feeling i get days after.
I prefer tryptamines alot more. I get no crash and feel better days after use.
But i couldnt decide which one has changed me more.
Both have done wonders and i greatly appreciate both classes
I rarely use MDMA now because I feel that I cant get anything more from the chemical than what it has already taught me. Plus I hate the MDMA comedown and shitty feeling i get days after.
I prefer tryptamines alot more. I get no crash and feel better days after use.
But i couldnt decide which one has changed me more.
Both have done wonders and i greatly appreciate both classes
nada|chance
Bluelighter
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The other day someone told me that PEA are dark magic and Trypts are light | i believe both can be light and dark | Please share your opinions
illusion25
Bluelighter
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- Oct 20, 2005
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for me trypts are usually more dark. I have darker trips with them.
I think both are the same.
but i see light and dark in all things.
It is how you see or interpret it. Both exist in each other. Some people look at things as light while others look at things as dark.
I dont prefer light over darkness either.
I think both are the same.
but i see light and dark in all things.
It is how you see or interpret it. Both exist in each other. Some people look at things as light while others look at things as dark.
I dont prefer light over darkness either.
Sprinklervibes
Bluelighter
Psych0naut said:
OK, so psychedelics can show someone insights, realizations etc.
MDMA can show someone a feeling of happiness, empathy and extreme content. We have all these things in us while sober, only our "education" blocks them out for the most part. The drugs just remind us/show us that they're there.
In that aspect, the drugs are not very different. The reason MDMA feels fake to you is because your defenses are lowered and that's not how you really are in this society. But do I think the same way I do on psychedelics like I do while sober? Hell no, if that were the case they'd have me locked-up in a psychward. So why would MDMA be more fake than say, mushrooms?
Sprinklervibes said:
The brain and its' states are not composed of on/off-0 or 1. It's a huge mix of things and those drugs change the relationships between a lot of different things. There is room for subtle differentiation because we are not just evaluating one thing. The part about being who you really are on MDMA is silly to me. It might be a preferrable state but the human brain is not able to create the emotions created by a lot of drugs. You will never feel as good as you do with smack or crack without it. Your brain cannot make those emotions without some sort of catalyst. Whether it's thrombosis or LSD doesn't change the fact that you is essentially you. You're just you slightly different than you were just before.
A lot of people seem to relate their body feeling good, pleasure with happiness. Myabe that's what that guy means by fake. MDMA forces me to like people whom I'd probably not really like. Tryptamines force me to accept them. But people look at psychedelics in so many different ways. I've never been able to look at them as more than mere chemicals that change my ability to see and value different aspects of Truth
.Peace,
PL
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Personally, MDMA or any empathogen hasn't really impacted my life much (other than MDMA causing me long periods of terrible depression after use). I think, however, that it depends on who you are as to what might benefit you the most. Personally, I have always felt full of love for everything from the time I was a child, so when I took MDMA it seemed extremely profound at the time, but later on I realized that nothing had changed.
Tryptamines and some PEAs, however, have had tremendous changes on me over time. The experiences themselves provided a trigger for change through realizations I had, and over the past few years I've integrated those experiences so much into my psyche that I can say without a doubt that I am different than I was before, and I feel that I'm much more understanding, happy, tolerant, and balanced. The kind of insights I've had on psychedelics (as opposed to empathogens) are so much deeper and more important to me and are the kind of thing that I simply cannot ignore and that will not fade. My experiences on empathogens, however, seem like, "well, duh!" after I come down, and I end up realizing that all I ended up doing was indulging in senseless hedonism. That's fun sometimes, but I don't consider it even remotely profound.
I know we're all different. But to me these days, (pure) MDMA feels like a horrible poison, and the other empathogens feel like fun toys, but no more. AMT is an exception but then again I consider it much more of a tryptamine than an empathogen.
Basically, it boils down to the fact that no drug can cause a lasting change in you, for better or for worse. It's through your own efforts after the experience that changes can be made. However, the intense experience of such dramatically altered consciousness can be an excellent impetus for change. Had I started my life out as a person with intrapersonal problems such as anger or depression or anxiety or something like that, I may have made the point that MDMA was more useful for me in this post. But since I was never like that, I've found it to be mindless hedonism, a very seductive and coercive drug.
And before anyone says it, I have never overused MDMA. I haven't used it very many times. After the first year when I did it about 8 times spread over 12 months, I took a 2 year break, and every time since then, it's felt like mental suicide to take it. I have an unsatisfactory, empty high followed by a very frightening emotional imbalance that lasts for longer each time I've tried. I know some people do not have this happen, and I didn't used to at all, but to me it feels tremendously toxic at any dose, and because of this I will never be using it again.
Tryptamines and some PEAs, however, have had tremendous changes on me over time. The experiences themselves provided a trigger for change through realizations I had, and over the past few years I've integrated those experiences so much into my psyche that I can say without a doubt that I am different than I was before, and I feel that I'm much more understanding, happy, tolerant, and balanced. The kind of insights I've had on psychedelics (as opposed to empathogens) are so much deeper and more important to me and are the kind of thing that I simply cannot ignore and that will not fade. My experiences on empathogens, however, seem like, "well, duh!" after I come down, and I end up realizing that all I ended up doing was indulging in senseless hedonism. That's fun sometimes, but I don't consider it even remotely profound.
I know we're all different. But to me these days, (pure) MDMA feels like a horrible poison, and the other empathogens feel like fun toys, but no more. AMT is an exception but then again I consider it much more of a tryptamine than an empathogen.
Basically, it boils down to the fact that no drug can cause a lasting change in you, for better or for worse. It's through your own efforts after the experience that changes can be made. However, the intense experience of such dramatically altered consciousness can be an excellent impetus for change. Had I started my life out as a person with intrapersonal problems such as anger or depression or anxiety or something like that, I may have made the point that MDMA was more useful for me in this post. But since I was never like that, I've found it to be mindless hedonism, a very seductive and coercive drug.
And before anyone says it, I have never overused MDMA. I haven't used it very many times. After the first year when I did it about 8 times spread over 12 months, I took a 2 year break, and every time since then, it's felt like mental suicide to take it. I have an unsatisfactory, empty high followed by a very frightening emotional imbalance that lasts for longer each time I've tried. I know some people do not have this happen, and I didn't used to at all, but to me it feels tremendously toxic at any dose, and because of this I will never be using it again.
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Sprinklervibes
Bluelighter
Pimp Lazy said:
I disagree. I think all those emotions are reproducable in a non-drugged mind.
blue)dolphin
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 346
nothing beats Cannabis, but...
Xorkoth .... excellent, man
Here's my take, since I've also done enough drugs to give this a fair assessment:
In one line: Tryptamines are (usually) holy sacraments and Phenethylamines are (usually) a waste of time if not worse.
Phenethylamines...
First let me say there is a large spectrum of drugs we're talking about here. Let me first say that mescaline is the exception to what I am about to say. Mescaline, comes from the sacred cactus, and gets you closer to Gaia from which it came and of which you are a part. My two San Pedro trips were absolutely better, in hindsight, than any other PEA experiences. There is something very "real" about this experience. Even though the peripheral effects can be somewhat unpleasant, it's well worth it because it feels sacred.
MDMA is on the other end of the spectrum. I have a lot of experience with this drug and in hindsight they were all worthless. I had awesome sex for hours and hours and enjoyed the sensation of my brain being flooded with seratonin. I rarely "abused" this drug but I did a few times. I believe that any use of MDMA, beyond one or two self-therapeutic sessions for people who actually need it, is ABUSE. Taking MDMA is engaging in an act of hedonism. If you think that's fine, cool. I'll save my brain cells for much more useful drugs. And yes I do believe MDMA is neurotoxic. Or else why would many people including myself feel depressed and moody for weeks after moderate use?
2C-x drugs fall somewhere in between. They are often beautiful, enjoyable, and insightful. Yet, in each one I've tried, something is lacking. And that is the something that is perceived as "truth". Mescaline has this "truth"... 2C-I, 2C-D, 2C-C, 2C-E, do not. 2C-E can certainly convince you there is truth there due to its power... but power isn't everything.
Amphetamines are a complex phenethylamine and its pretty obvious to me that nothing good comes of these.
Now TRYPTAMINES...
I actually *like* only a few tryptamines at the moment. But most of them that I've tried have that something special about them. Just the way they make you feel at peace, with this sense of understanding and cosmic bliss. Psilocybe mushrooms are among the best, providing everything from a mild giggly trip to complete ego destruction and rebirth. Almost no other psychedelic is as good at ego destroying. And this is valuable! Why trip in the first place if you want to hang onto all your worldly notions?
4-aco-DMT is another great DMT-based molecule (along with those in shrooms). Fantastic! Smooth on the body, deep on the mind, and absolutely beautiful, serene.
4-aco-MiPT is excellent (not quite as excellent but still preferable to any 2C-x), so is 4-ho-DiPT , and many of the other 4-ho / 4-aco type tryptamines. There is a lot of variety here but many of them get you closer to god-energy.
And then there's LSD which I guess is a bit of both, but it leans towards being a very special tryptamine in my mind. No other psychedelic has taught me nearly as much about myself. This is a cosmic, inspirational chemical.
But the winner is *neither* !
Cannabis, I find, is the best of *all* worlds wrapped into one. I get the most insight on Cannabis. I feel the best buzz on Cannabis. It's physically very psychedelic. Mentally psychedelic too. Not very visual but once you've tripped a lot the visuals are secondary anyway. Doesn't really build a tolerance (for me) so you can smoke it (vaporize it!!!) all the time, no problem.
Good shit
Xorkoth .... excellent, man
Here's my take, since I've also done enough drugs to give this a fair assessment:
In one line: Tryptamines are (usually) holy sacraments and Phenethylamines are (usually) a waste of time if not worse.
Phenethylamines...
First let me say there is a large spectrum of drugs we're talking about here. Let me first say that mescaline is the exception to what I am about to say. Mescaline, comes from the sacred cactus, and gets you closer to Gaia from which it came and of which you are a part. My two San Pedro trips were absolutely better, in hindsight, than any other PEA experiences. There is something very "real" about this experience. Even though the peripheral effects can be somewhat unpleasant, it's well worth it because it feels sacred.
MDMA is on the other end of the spectrum. I have a lot of experience with this drug and in hindsight they were all worthless. I had awesome sex for hours and hours and enjoyed the sensation of my brain being flooded with seratonin. I rarely "abused" this drug but I did a few times. I believe that any use of MDMA, beyond one or two self-therapeutic sessions for people who actually need it, is ABUSE. Taking MDMA is engaging in an act of hedonism. If you think that's fine, cool. I'll save my brain cells for much more useful drugs. And yes I do believe MDMA is neurotoxic. Or else why would many people including myself feel depressed and moody for weeks after moderate use?
2C-x drugs fall somewhere in between. They are often beautiful, enjoyable, and insightful. Yet, in each one I've tried, something is lacking. And that is the something that is perceived as "truth". Mescaline has this "truth"... 2C-I, 2C-D, 2C-C, 2C-E, do not. 2C-E can certainly convince you there is truth there due to its power... but power isn't everything.
Amphetamines are a complex phenethylamine and its pretty obvious to me that nothing good comes of these.
Now TRYPTAMINES...
I actually *like* only a few tryptamines at the moment. But most of them that I've tried have that something special about them. Just the way they make you feel at peace, with this sense of understanding and cosmic bliss. Psilocybe mushrooms are among the best, providing everything from a mild giggly trip to complete ego destruction and rebirth. Almost no other psychedelic is as good at ego destroying. And this is valuable! Why trip in the first place if you want to hang onto all your worldly notions?
4-aco-DMT is another great DMT-based molecule (along with those in shrooms). Fantastic! Smooth on the body, deep on the mind, and absolutely beautiful, serene.
4-aco-MiPT is excellent (not quite as excellent but still preferable to any 2C-x), so is 4-ho-DiPT , and many of the other 4-ho / 4-aco type tryptamines. There is a lot of variety here but many of them get you closer to god-energy.
And then there's LSD which I guess is a bit of both, but it leans towards being a very special tryptamine in my mind. No other psychedelic has taught me nearly as much about myself. This is a cosmic, inspirational chemical.
But the winner is *neither* !
Cannabis, I find, is the best of *all* worlds wrapped into one. I get the most insight on Cannabis. I feel the best buzz on Cannabis. It's physically very psychedelic. Mentally psychedelic too. Not very visual but once you've tripped a lot the visuals are secondary anyway. Doesn't really build a tolerance (for me) so you can smoke it (vaporize it!!!) all the time, no problem.
Good shit
illusion25
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 789
I agrre with every word you said dolphin!
well put.
cannabis is my drug of choice. UNfortunately i am on probation and cannot use it anymore.
I am waiting for the day when i can finally smoke and be happy!
well put.
cannabis is my drug of choice. UNfortunately i am on probation and cannot use it anymore.
I am waiting for the day when i can finally smoke and be happy!
Morninggloryseed
Bluelight Crew
This is a very interesting thread. My feelings on MDMA and co VS the tryptamines really is right on the mark with what Church said earlier. I just don't have the motivation to type it out again.
But the thing I really do want to say is that we all must accept other opinions into what is worthy and shy away from absolutisms such as those made by Blue Dolphin (with all due respect my friend ), Psych0naut, terumo27G, and others. Maybe MDMA is 'fake' for you, but don't sum up my experiences!
It is easy to get offended when others take experiences that are so personal and meaningful, and dismiss them like that.
In looking back on my psychedelic career....I have taken LSD more times than any other psychedelic. Yet, I've only had one acid trip that really, truely changed me. On the other hand, half of my MDMA experiences (I've had it around six times) really meant something to me. How did it change me? Well let's just say that after MDMA, some bonds that were deep were even deeper. I am still affected by it.
2C-E I've had only three times...yet two of those three experiences I will never forget and one of them (a +4) still brings me more joy than LSD ever did. So much for BD's theories into PEAs vs indoles.
I mean I think taking MDMA at a club is a really stupid waste of time, but I rarely tell that to others. I think taking psychedelics more than a few times a year for many people may be damaging, but I keep my opinions to myself.
Point is again...stay away from absolute statements. For some of us, MDMA is a far more meaningful psychedelic than even LSD. For others, MDMA is just a euphoriant and is probably doing more damage than good. Everyone is different, everyone's trip is different.
Finally in the end, I really don't think it matters because psychedelics don't change a person...they may show the way but you have to steer the ship in the end.
But the thing I really do want to say is that we all must accept other opinions into what is worthy and shy away from absolutisms such as those made by Blue Dolphin (with all due respect my friend
), Psych0naut, terumo27G, and others. Maybe MDMA is 'fake' for you, but don't sum up my experiences!It is easy to get offended when others take experiences that are so personal and meaningful, and dismiss them like that.
In looking back on my psychedelic career....I have taken LSD more times than any other psychedelic. Yet, I've only had one acid trip that really, truely changed me. On the other hand, half of my MDMA experiences (I've had it around six times) really meant something to me. How did it change me? Well let's just say that after MDMA, some bonds that were deep were even deeper. I am still affected by it.
2C-E I've had only three times...yet two of those three experiences I will never forget and one of them (a +4) still brings me more joy than LSD ever did. So much for BD's theories into PEAs vs indoles.
I mean I think taking MDMA at a club is a really stupid waste of time, but I rarely tell that to others. I think taking psychedelics more than a few times a year for many people may be damaging, but I keep my opinions to myself.
Point is again...stay away from absolute statements. For some of us, MDMA is a far more meaningful psychedelic than even LSD. For others, MDMA is just a euphoriant and is probably doing more damage than good. Everyone is different, everyone's trip is different.
Finally in the end, I really don't think it matters because psychedelics don't change a person...they may show the way but you have to steer the ship in the end.
Blacksoulman
Bluelighter
terumo27G said:
agreed. Toxicity is not as hard to achieve as many believe. I cant see how a drug can be so insightful when a user's words contradict thier own beliefs sober. Not only that, many etards are the ones who spread myths about lsd and the other psychedelics.
risks associated with ecstasy (http://thedea.org/risks.html)
- mixing other stimulates(could be from cut pills)
- overheating
- Hyponatremia ("Water Intoxication")
- dopamine and norepinephrine release
"dopamine and norepinephrine release appears to still be important in MDMA neurotoxicity because it promotes activity/heat production, increasing the risk of overheating (which in turn greatly increases the risk of neurotoxicity)."
here is a typical ecstacy user who experienced three of those conditions
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=286072
(an ecstacy experience can easily satisfy these conditions given the way
it is commonly used as a 'club drug')
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cognosis
Bluelighter
Often times I hear psychedelic-heads taking about Aldous Huxley Propaganda. "Huxley Propaganda" is reminiscient of The Doors of Perception where Huxley puts forth the idea that while under the influence of a psychoactive substance a chemical filter is turned off and one is perceiving "naked existence." I disagree with this idea entirely; what I think is happening, and IMO more intriguing than Huxley's idea, is that under the influence of a psychoactive agent the observer is put into a chemically novel situation -- one where it has not fully established cybernetic control. There's no ego gloss, so when I'm walking down the street and tripping my face off I'm looking at the trees and the sky instead of thinking about paying my cellphone bill. 
Tryptamine compounds such as LSD seem to have an effect primarily on the cognitive/cerebral functioning of the mind and has taught me quite a bit about the maleability of perception.
Nowadays though, it's commonplace to get rationalist structures all twisted up; look at cultural movements like Surrealism, Post-Modern art, and the non-linear narratives of electronic art musicians like Aphex Twin.
MDMA however, primarily targets the viscera, *gets me in touch with my feeling*, and has been a much more profound experience in that it has taught me quite literally that all perception is chemical. I think PEAs (2C-E, Adrenaline, etc) are overall are more of a woa experience because they are somatic experiences.
+++
Looking back at people talking about MDMA being "fake" I wanted to say this:
I have this love-hate relationship with MDMA because when I first started experimenting with it I did over 200 doses in a three month time span. Thankfully though, I had a great source and everything I was doing was pure 100% MDMA -- I can't imagine what I'd be like if I had been doing dirty E pills. MDMA is the only compound I would ever say that I have ever abused pretty much for the reason that I knew it would make me happy regardless of the circumstances that were going in my life at the time. MDMA feels fake if the context you're in isn't right for how you're feeling. MDMA make me indescriminately happy and if you're in a room full of strangers rolling balls, or a potentially dangerous situation and still feel fantastic, it's probs not too great a thing. This is actually why I kinda have a preference for 2C-I, it's euphoric but I still can think clearly enough to leave if my environment gets sketchy.
~I also think it's safe to say that there is a correlation between psychedelic drug experimenation and the rise of body modification culture, of re-dis.covering the body and how to move with it. To me, it makes sense then why ecstasy is the rave/dance drug of choice and not acid.
Tryptamine compounds such as LSD seem to have an effect primarily on the cognitive/cerebral functioning of the mind and has taught me quite a bit about the maleability of perception.
Nowadays though, it's commonplace to get rationalist structures all twisted up; look at cultural movements like Surrealism, Post-Modern art, and the non-linear narratives of electronic art musicians like Aphex Twin.
MDMA however, primarily targets the viscera, *gets me in touch with my feeling*, and has been a much more profound experience in that it has taught me quite literally that all perception is chemical. I think PEAs (2C-E, Adrenaline, etc) are overall are more of a woa experience because they are somatic experiences.
+++
Looking back at people talking about MDMA being "fake" I wanted to say this:
I have this love-hate relationship with MDMA because when I first started experimenting with it I did over 200 doses in a three month time span. Thankfully though, I had a great source and everything I was doing was pure 100% MDMA -- I can't imagine what I'd be like if I had been doing dirty E pills. MDMA is the only compound I would ever say that I have ever abused pretty much for the reason that I knew it would make me happy regardless of the circumstances that were going in my life at the time. MDMA feels fake if the context you're in isn't right for how you're feeling. MDMA make me indescriminately happy and if you're in a room full of strangers rolling balls, or a potentially dangerous situation and still feel fantastic, it's probs not too great a thing. This is actually why I kinda have a preference for 2C-I, it's euphoric but I still can think clearly enough to leave if my environment gets sketchy.
~I also think it's safe to say that there is a correlation between psychedelic drug experimenation and the rise of body modification culture, of re-dis.covering the body and how to move with it. To me, it makes sense then why ecstasy is the rave/dance drug of choice and not acid.
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terumo27G said:
MDMgay
A fake drug with which gives you a fake sense of spirituality, superiority, and empathy.
Tryptamines
Mostly natural substances which have been used for thousands of years by hundreds of cultures, for the benefit of their cultures and spirituality.
BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is that kind of thinking that got Hitler in power.
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cognosis
Bluelighter
I.V.User said:
Give me an example of an emotio-perceptual state that is devoid of an underlining biochemical process. I double dare you.
Morninggloryseed
Bluelight Crew
I.V.User said:MDMgay
A fake drug with which gives you a fake sense of spirituality, superiority, and empathy.
Tryptamines
Mostly natural substances which have been used for thousands of years by hundreds of cultures, for the benefit of their cultures and spirituality.
BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is that kind of thinking that got Hitler in power.
Urrrg. Again, maybe for you...but for me I find MDMA very useful. And mescaline (a phenethylamine) has been used for 1000s of years, etc. The point again is that you may find MDMA 'fake' but to insist one drug is fake, and another is spiritual is quite dogmatic and evidence that you are unaware that a world exists beyond your personal experience.
How dare you say my MDMA experiences were fake. I've sampled a good half-dozen tryptamines but only two (5-MeO-DMT and iprocin) have shown to be of any worth. But 2C-E, 2C-T-7, MDA, m1, and MDMA are all invaluable to me.