The Big & Dandy Nootropics Thread

[shoshin]

Thanks Xorkoth! One of my biggest difficulties is with holding multiple things in my mind at once (I'd be lost without the notes I write to myself), so if it could help with that it would probably be worth it (especially if one can find it that cheaply). I'll cut my piracetam in half from here on in as well.

 

[Xorkoth]

I used to take piracetam (400mg) daily, but due anxiety I tend to get from it I had to stop it. Cannot imagine how someone can take more than 1g of this stuff. Combining it with selegiline eliminated anxiety, but I'd rather take seligiline alone..

Piracetam gives you anxiety? And at only 400mg? Weird! It doesn't give me even the slightest hint of anxiety, even when I took at least 2.5 grams twice daily. In fact, it helped to eliminate my anxiety, along with hydergine.

Anyway back to the subject. A friend of mine reported that his first experience with pregnenolone produced a mild psychedelic state (comparable to a day-enhancer mushroom dose). On the other hand, pregnenolone did nothing psychedelic for me, apart that it seems to improve the quality of sleep if taken before going to bed (no effect on sleep if administrated in the morning).

I also tried prenenalone (possibly at the advice in a post from the same friend), and it did nothing psychedelic for me, either. It did seem to increase the happiness effect that my nootropic stack gives me, but it was subtle at best and I decided not to get any more when the bottle was empty.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The problem is committing to 120 tabs of hydergine! If you buy small (ie 30 tabs) its steep (40 bucks with shipping is the best price I've found too). But, probably worth it considering you may or may not keep it in the stack.

Lots of people recommend just 2.25mg a day as it is strong for some!

Wish I could buy raw erg. mesylates powder and weigh out my own doses. Guess the market doesn't support this as most people don't have +/-1mg scales.

I've been on a nootropic break while I've been sick this past week and I feel different, things are just moving along a lot slower (well, admittedly been suffering caffeine withdrawl too 8) ).

Peace!

 

[Xorkoth]

I use only 2.25mg a day, not because it's too strong at 4.5 but because it does the same for me at 2.25 and it's an expensive nootropic!

Anyway, yeah, I realize that 120 tabs is a lot to commit to. I didn't order that much my first or second time ordering hydergine. However, my third (and current) time, I knew for sure I'd want those 120 tabs, and then more after that, so it was no problem for me to commit to it.

If you're going to order 120 tabs (or any other large volume) of hydergine, make sure you want that many first!

 

[Dondante]

Xor, be careful with the idebenone. There have been some studies recently showing that antioxidants can actually be harmful in the longterm. I still take it along with any pro-oxidant drugs like the phenethylamines, but not on a regular basis. A multivitamin has plenty of antioxidants already. Too much might mess up normal cell functioning ... especially with a super antioxidant like idebenone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6399773.stm?ls

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=17327526&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

As for hydergine, I love the stuff, but I'm kinda worried about long term effects on the heart. I'm not sure if it affects the 5-HT2B receptor like some other ergolines, but I'd like to find out. Pergolide and cabergoline have been shown to cause cardiac valve abnormalities.

Piracetam, OTOH, seems to be about as safe as they come.

 

[Xorkoth]

Hmm, interesting. Have you specifically read about the mechanism of action of idebenone? I ask because it's related to coQ10, but works in a superior fashion. coQ10 can actually cause oxidative damage under certain oxygen conditions. But idebenone regulates the oxygen levels in your blood/brain to make sure that never happens. Like coQ10, it's an antioxidant with additional functions from other antioxidants. I read all this a while back, and now I can't find the article to link to, but I have it bookmarked on my laptop at home so I'll try to post it here later on.

As for hydergine, I haven't found any evidence supporting negative effects on the heart, only positive long-term and short-term effects on the brain, mostly regarding prolonging the life of the mitochondria and regulating oxygen levels to prevent oxidation of brain cells. Of course, that doesn't mean it's not bad for the heart. If it does turn out to be bad for you somehow, I hope someone discovers it soon and tells me, because I don't have any plans to stop it currently, ever. Everything I've read seems to be suggesting to me that taking hydergine and piracetam could dramatically increase lifespan, by preventing the mitochondria from dying (which, when it happens, causes you to break down and die) and preventing oxidation on brain cells. Speaking of which, piracetam has been shown to be a very potent brain antioxidant, as well.

If anything I've said in this post is not correct by your knowledge, though, please let me know.

 

[solistus]

Re: 5-HTP: the linked thread was left off fairly inconclusively. Has anyone followed up on this matter since then? I doubt my 50-100mg/day dose would be extremely problematic, but if there's a risk of heart problems perhaps I should cut back on it. It doesn't seem to have any obvious and dramatic subjective effects, at any rate.

Xor, nano, et al - I've been thinking about expanding my stack now that I'm fairly comfortable/familiar with what I already use. What would you advise to add to piracetam/lecithin/multivitamins (and sometimes varying doses of phenibut)? I've been considering hydergine, but it's not dirt cheap like piracetam and lecithin, and I'm a poor college student

 

[Jabberwocky]

comments on huperzine? This is tossed around sometimes. It would seem to work well with a racetam and a choline donator.

 

[Ximot]

I do well on Centrophenoxine (provides DMAE and choline, I think?), which I use fairly often, sometimes daily for a week or two when I want extra focus/energy. It seems to combine well with Piracetam and Hydergine, though I also used it on its own for a while before that. After a couple of weeks of almost daily use I tend to leave it alone for a few days,sometimes a few weeks, as I feel that its effects are somehow cumulative.

I tend to use Lecithin later in the day as a pick-me-up, and I take 2 fish oil / fish liver oil capsules 2 - 3 times a day.

And my green tea / white tea and sometimes the more serene but mildly euphoric maté tea are also good adjuncts to this. I much prefer them and guarana to coffee or just plain anhydrous caffeine as a source of energy. And Coca tea is another one I have taken a liking to. And my B-Vitamins... and L-Tyrosine & L-Phenylalanine, though both of these I have to use carefully, as they can make me feel a bit strung if I overdo them. L-Arginine I have found to be nice though - but it isn't exactly nootropic (even if it is hard to draw the line between body and mind). Something I found very pleasant as a dopamine enhancer is L-Dopa (Mucuna Pruriens) - sadly, I have run out.

Vinpocetine makes me feel a little light-headed, especially when taken in conjunction with Ginkgo Biloba. Desmopressin I found to be physically horrible - headache & fluid retention. Adrafinil also feels somehow speedy and not very euphoric, not unlike MDPV, come to think of it, and definitely no favourite of mine.

I haven't been able to make my mind up about 3 others I have tried recently: Phenibut (makes me strangely sleepy, I have only ever used it at night though), Sulbutiamine (subtle enhancement if any, but then it's hard to tell when taken on top of other stuff), and Aniracetam (seems to be mildly euphoric but fairly short-lived and a bit fuzzy after that).

Questions I have:

(1) Since I also use 5-HTP fairly regularly and have heard about this heart risk, I am now considering switching back to L-Tryptophan. Does anyone know whether this comes with the same risks?

(2) @nano: how is ALA a nootropic? I have been using it on and off and found it 300-600mg of it to make me feel rather good, like a subtle enhancement of well-being, but I hadn't really considered it in any way nootropic until I read you. I kinda wonder how Ginseng is a nootropic, but then where does the body end and the mind begin anyway... if you like Ginseng you might also be fond of Maca root if you try it.

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't really like huperzine (or vinpocetine). For some reason, both of them give me this weird feeling of strain behind the eyes that I associate with being sick and being extremely weary. It doesn't feel right to me, so I stopped using them both. But a lot of people seem to like it, so you might as well try.

I don't really like 5-HTP either, except as a pre- and post-load for MDMA and a few others. However, since I don't use MDMA anymore, I have no use for it. It makes me feel kind of tired and weighed down, and numbed, but not happy. Perhaps that's because I'm almost ecstatically happy nearly all of the time without it.

solistus: I recommend hydergine, honestly. But if you can't do that currently, I would next recommend centrophenoxine. It's much, much more effective at raising acetylcholine than lecithin, and you can still take the lecithin if you want as well. I also like idebenone a lot. But I would add centrophenoxine first. It's not as cheap as piracetam, but it's not expensive either like hydergine is.

EDIT: Looks like Ximot beat me to the punch (or post as it were)! I would just like to second his suggestion of taking fish and/or flax oil. omega-3s and perhaps 6s and 9s as well are vital to proper brain functioning, and most of us do not eat enough fish. If you do eat a lot of fish, then I wouldn't worry about it. Also, I've found that green tea potentiates nootropics, especially hydergine.

 

[athousandormore]

I like vinpocetine. Very cheap and a small daily dose keeps me tuned without being wired. I've tried piracetam but felt nothing. However, I read a post on erowid about it potentiating other substances which is interesting.

I used to use liquid choline which is a great brain tonic, but tastes foul and must be used in pinhead doses, which is a bit of a hassle. A teeny bit too much and it caused headaches. However, if I had a friend who was damaged from beating his brain with substance abuse over many years, I would trust liquid choline to repair his or her synapses with just a drop daily for three-six months, and bring them up to optimum mental functioning.

I will give hydergine a shot. Thanks. Good thread.

 

[paranoia9x]

this stack is for brain repair

multivitamin/mineral
fish oil
lioin's mane mushroom
Alpha-Lipoic Acid
N-Acetyl-l-Cysteine
Glutathione
L-Glutamine
Phosphatidyl Serine

 

[EntheoDjinn]

wildly unpredicable effects

Just to pick up from a thread elsewhere on PD - samadhi_smiles, you mentioned "wildly unpredicable effects" re. nootropics & psychs.

I was wondering, do you guys halt or modify your stack intake (in particular the hydergine, paracetam & etc) prior to tripping?

And if anybody has experience of these possible adverse interactions - what happened?

Cheers

E

 

[5-HT2]

I have found that the racetams don't have much effect on psychedelics. They do, however, potentiate MDXX-class compounds quite well.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thats a pretty broad generalization to cover all psychedelics, HT2. There've been plenty of reports of potentiation with different tryptamines, and then there have been reports of very unpredictable interaction with phenethylamines.

A few with LSD and piracetam reporting feeling 'out of control,' 'dissasociated,' etc.

For some reason I would be extra cautious combining these with any phenethylamines.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Just to pick up from a thread elsewhere on PD - samadhi_smiles, you mentioned "wildly unpredicable effects" re. nootropics & psychs.

I was wondering, do you guys halt or modify your stack intake (in particular the hydergine, paracetam & etc) prior to tripping?

And if anybody has experience of these possible adverse interactions - what happened?

Cheers

E

I take all my nootropics in the morning, save an afternoon dose of piracetam. If I know I am going to take a psychedelic in the morning, I will just skip that morning's nootropics, and if I know I will take a psychedelic in the afternoon/evening I will skip the afternoon piracetam.

There are certain nootropics that stay in one's system a long time (deprenyl comes to mind, I think?) and could have VERY dangerous interactions with certain psychedelics (ie fatal interactions).

 

[nanobrain]

i'll second the tension issues with huperzine / vinca - type extract blends. hydergine - invented by Dr Hofmann who i believe still takes it daily - is a great substance, but i just have this thing about ergot derivs ;-) - call it respect, i guess, so have put that one on the backburner.

as has been pointed out, 5HTP is often sold / taken with B6 - and sans decarboxylase inhibitor; this prevents the balance of oral 5-HTP from ever getting central, it remains peripheral, thus leading to the noted feelings of heaviness and fuzzyness, not to mention that excess periph serotonin comes with its own host of undesirable health sides.

moda / adrafinil are not nootropics in any conventional sense, they are pure stimulants acting on the a2 adrenergic receptors, if memory serves. they will tweak you out - but adrenergics are thoroughly noneuphoric and will activate your fight or flight subsystem, so - drumroll pls - thats Paranoia.
just curious, what benefit do y'all find in phenibut?

 

[Dondante]

Hmm, interesting. Have you specifically read about the mechanism of action of idebenone? I ask because it's related to coQ10, but works in a superior fashion. coQ10 can actually cause oxidative damage under certain oxygen conditions. But idebenone regulates the oxygen levels in your blood/brain to make sure that never happens. Like coQ10, it's an antioxidant with additional functions from other antioxidants. I read all this a while back, and now I can't find the article to link to, but I have it bookmarked on my laptop at home so I'll try to post it here later on.

As for hydergine, I haven't found any evidence supporting negative effects on the heart, only positive long-term and short-term effects on the brain, mostly regarding prolonging the life of the mitochondria and regulating oxygen levels to prevent oxidation of brain cells. Of course, that doesn't mean it's not bad for the heart. If it does turn out to be bad for you somehow, I hope someone discovers it soon and tells me, because I don't have any plans to stop it currently, ever. Everything I've read seems to be suggesting to me that taking hydergine and piracetam could dramatically increase lifespan, by preventing the mitochondria from dying (which, when it happens, causes you to break down and die) and preventing oxidation on brain cells. Speaking of which, piracetam has been shown to be a very potent brain antioxidant, as well.

If anything I've said in this post is not correct by your knowledge, though, please let me know.

From BBC news article linked in my last post:

While the risk of death was unchanged among selenium and vitamin C users, a statistically significant increase in risk emerged for the other three supplements. Beta-carotene produced an approximate 7% increased risk, vitamin E a 4% increase and vitamin A, a 16% increase.

From wikipedia:

Although some studies have suggested antioxidant supplements have health benefits, other large clinical trials did not detect any benefit for the formulations tested, and excess supplementation may occasionally be harmful.

From the recent meta-analysis linked in my last post:

There are several possible explanations
for the negative effect of antioxidant
supplements on mortality.
Although oxidative stress has a
hypothesized role in the pathogenesis
of many chronic diseases, it may be
the consequence of pathological conditions.
133 By eliminating free radicals
from our organism, we interfere with
some essential defensive mechanisms
like apoptosis, phagocytosis, and
detoxification.134-136

... You're right about the difference btw CoQ10 and idebenone, but the point is that while excess oxidation may be harmful, some is required for normal functioning. Excessive antioxidants may interfere with the body's ability to remove unwanted cells. Just something to think about ...

Most people get their information on nootropics and supplements from vendors, so you're looking at selected info with a large bias. As for hydergine, there's nothing in print that says it's risky, but since some closely related molecules are harmful, it makes me wary of taking it for long term. Neither of these drugs are harmful in the short term, but the jury is still out on whether or not they are okay to take for extended periods of time. It would be kind of ironic if one was to spend a bunch of money on "life-extending" drugs only to find out that they are actually "life-shortening."

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ That would indeed be ironic. Tragically so! Perhaps I rely too much on intuition, but something about the nootropics I take feels extremely healthy to me. I haven't noticed a single negative effect from any of the ones I still take. They just seem harmless to me. Perhaps, though, it would be a good idea to take some extended breaks here and there, at least until more definitive research is done.

Just to pick up from a thread elsewhere on PD - samadhi_smiles, you mentioned "wildly unpredicable effects" re. nootropics & psychs.

I was wondering, do you guys halt or modify your stack intake (in particular the hydergine, paracetam & etc) prior to tripping?

And if anybody has experience of these possible adverse interactions - what happened?

I don't halt or modify my stack when I trip. However, I take my nootropics in the morning only, except on occasion. If I were planning on tripping in the morning one day, I would not take the nootropics that day, and I were planning on tripping at night one day, I would still take them in the morning but not any later. I've taken the entire stack and close as 4 hours before a trip without experiencing any of the alteration of effects. It seems to me that once the piracetam, the biggest interactor by far IME, is cleared of the body (which doesn't take long, just a few hours I think), the will be little or no alteration of effects.

I've had piracetam interact with psychedelics a few times. Once it was totally negative. I took my nootropics without thinking about it, and then only about an hour or so later I took 6mg of 5-MeO-MiPT. Afterwards, I realized what I had done. The experience was not at all frightening, but it wasn't a trip at all. Instead, I felt like I had a bad cold or some sort of flu, with no mental effects. Fortunately, it faded after about 4 or 5 hours.

Once it was neutral, but at the time absolutely horrifying. I took a smaller stack (900mg piracetam and 250mg of DMAE) with the intent of potentiating an 18mg dose of 2C-E. This was the first time I had tried piracetam for potentiation, and the second time trying 2C-E. The first time I took an 18mg dose of it, I had an incredibly visual experience that blew all my previous visual trips away (and all since in fact). it was gorgeous and eerie, and felt like it was on the brink of being very profound, but mostly my mind remained clear. This second time, the experience built very quickly and I threw up twice within an hour. Within two hours, I was more intoxicated by a psychedelic than I've ever been. It became much less outright visual, and instead my senses blended into one "super-sense". I can't remember between hours 2 and 3, and when I came to, I was in this thought loop hurricane that amounted to me waking up from humanity over and over and over again, becoming greater and greater dimensional creatures, until I approached the void and realized without a doubt that I was all alone in the universe and always was and always would be, and physical life was a beautiful dream to distract myself from the void, and I was ruined it and would be alone for eternity. I was so terrified I wanted to kill myself, because I thought if I stopped it before fully reaching the void, that I'd regain my dream by re-entering physical life as something else. I've been to the void since, but this was the only time it was brutally terrifying, because 2C-E is ruthless like that, and the piracetam transformed it into a juggernaut of a trip with a more cold and mechanical quality. I've never been so afraid in my life, but I'm still glad it happened. However, I would not repeat it.

I find that piracetam potentiates amphetamines and MDMA quite well and reduces their side- and after-effects. Finally, I once combined it with MDMA, and then 4 hours later took a small amount of LSD, and I had a wonderful, very long-lasting trip, but the LSD wasn't very strong and I kind of think that it was too long afterwards for the piracetam to affect the LSD side of the trip.

I have found that the racetams don't have much effect on psychedelics. They do, however, potentiate MDXX-class compounds quite well.

Which psychedelics have you combined it with? From anecdotal reports (not personal experience however), it seems like piracetam interacts strongly with the phenethylamines, but not so strongly with the tryptamines. That could be chance, though. It seems that many different people are affected in many different ways with the same piracetam combinations.

You're right about the MDXX, though. It seems pretty standard for everyone who tries it to experience positive potentiation or at least reduction of negative effects.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Though not across the board re: MDxx piracetam potentiation. Some have noted dizziness, confusion, etc.

Best to start with a smaller dose of MDxx and a smallish supplement of piracetam if you wish to explore this area.

I am also curious what psychedelics HT2 has combined piracetam with. There's simply not enough empirical evidence to get a real sense of the effects, yet.