Lysergamides The Big & Dandy LSZ Thread

[ZFC]

Anybody tried LSZ micro-dosing?
Most all of what's the tolerance of LSZ?

Yes I did, and based on that I would say the tolerance is about the same as that of AL-LAD or LSD, i.e. at least double the dose for same effects after 24h, and still up it after 48h. I microdosed every other day the same dose, and after 10 days (5 doses) it had no more effect. Repeated the experiment every third day and was more successful, even though there still may be some remaining tolerance (little effects after 2+ weeks of such repetitive exposure).

When it comes to the actual results of the micro-dosing (10 to 20 µg being a single dose btw, up it if you have tolerance), they were extremely positive (enhanced energy, creativity, productivity, empathy, general hygiene), although I may have a preferance for AL-LAD in this respect.

 

[mission780]

Yes I did, and based on that I would say the tolerance is about the same as that of AL-LAD or LSD, i.e. at least double the dose for same effects after 24h, and still up it after 48h. I microdosed every other day the same dose, and after 10 days (5 doses) it had no more effect. Repeated the experiment every third day and was more successful, even though there still may be some remaining tolerance (little effects after 2+ weeks of such repetitive exposure).

When it comes to the actual results of the micro-dosing (10 to 20 µg being a single dose btw, up it if you have tolerance), they were extremely positive (enhanced energy, creativity, productivity, empathy, general hygiene), although I may have a preferance for AL-LAD in this respect.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
I have a very similar experience in regards to tolerance when micro-dosing LSD. Every third day - works really well. However on the day after, even with increased dose, I get very poor results - mainly stimulation and energy, not so much cognitive enhancement anymore:-(

Why do you have a preference for AL-LAD to LSZ?
Is there any reason for micro-dosing AL-LAD or LSZ instead of LSD? Aren't LSD effects still superior in most areas?

 

[ZFC]

Why do you have a preference for AL-LAD to LSZ?

This is very subjective and only concerns micro-dosing, since I happen to never have found time for a full normal LSZ trip.
The general impression I had was that my AL-LAD micro-dosed days were slightly better than the LSZ ones. Perhaps more empathy, and definitely better appreciation for visual stimuli.

Is there any reason for micro-dosing AL-LAD or LSZ instead of LSD? Aren't LSD effects still superior in most areas?

One reason is that I am sticking to legals for the time being. I have been doing so for about two years, but I have extensive experience with LSD prior to that.

Another reason is that I simply am not convinced that LSD is so superior. It is almost exactly the same, and perhaps AL-LAD is even slightly better. It is a difficult fact for most to admit because LSD has this enormous historical glow, but from my experiences, my AL-LAD trips were probably better than my LSD ones.

 

[Mudshark]

.......Or EL-ES-ZED

I somehow have a feeling that LSD will never be beat in the combination of potency, lack of side effects/bodyload, liniency in dose/response, spiritual power etc.

There's something totally magical about how it came into existence, it really is the first ever synthetic psychedelic (research) chemical, and it still is number one imo.

I am inclined to agree - LSD is a molecule of perfection

Nevertheless , some acid is better than others ....
The best that I have ever seen was the Welsh microdots that disappeared after Operation Julie ...

But , having said that , these new analogue tabs are the best acid that I've seen since Julie .

I am convinced that set , setting , and the user's state of mind and metabolism are significant factors in the quality of a trip if the acid is of good quality.

Of course , I have noticed differences to the acid of times long past , but for me no two trips are ever the same ...

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

I am inclined to agree - LSD is a molecule of perfection

Nevertheless , some acid is better than others ....
The best that I have ever seen was the Welsh microdots that disappeared after Operation Julie ...

But , having said that , these new analogue tabs are the best acid that I've seen since Julie .

I am convinced that set , setting , and the user's state of mind and metabolism are significant factors in the quality of a trip if the acid is of good quality.

Of course , I have noticed differences to the acid of times long past , but for me no two trips are ever the same ...

This is a topic that has fascinated me for a long time. Pretty much every tryptamine I've tried has an absolute consistency every time I take the same chemical at the same dose. But LSD is so variable every time I take it. I wonder if this is unique to ergoloids ? Although all LSD is supposed to be exactly the same every time it's synthed it sure seems like every batch I've ever tried over the years or at least what's been on different blotters all seems to have its own unique flavour.
What I last had last summer seemed like every one that took it agreed on similar effects (truly godly closed eye visuals, almost no noticeable come up, and smooth and manageable as fuck even on 6+ hits).It seems though that the same batches of Al-Lad and LSZ seem to be producing highly variable effects in individuals based on reading as many trip reports as I could read. This just confuses me even more about the variable Acid experience.

 

[mission780]

This is a topic that has fascinated me for a long time. Pretty much every tryptamine I've tried has an absolute consistency every time I take the same chemical at the same dose. But LSD is so variable every time I take it. I wonder if this is unique to ergoloids ? Although all LSD is supposed to be exactly the same every time it's synthed it sure seems like every batch I've ever tried over the years or at least what's been on different blotters all seems to have its own unique flavour.
What I last had last summer seemed like every one that took it agreed on similar effects (truly godly closed eye visuals, almost no noticeable come up, and smooth and manageable as fuck even on 6+ hits).It seems though that the same batches of Al-Lad and LSZ seem to be producing highly variable effects in individuals based on reading as many trip reports as I could read. This just confuses me even more about the variable Acid experience.

Factors/variables:
- different doses (never sure exactly how much the blotter is)
- set and setting
- tolerance (LSD and other psychedelics recently/regularly taken)
- diet, supplements
- if you're rested or tired
- ...
- or some other magic like the phase of the moon (I always feel a bit differently during the few days preceding full moon. At that time I've also noticed that acid works stronger than usual on me)

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Factors/variables:
- different doses (never sure exactly how much the blotter is)
- set and setting
- tolerance (LSD and other psychedelics recently/regularly taken)
- diet, supplements
- if you're rested or tired
- ...
- or some other magic like the phase of the moon (I always feel a bit differently during the few days preceding full moon. At that time I've also noticed that acid works stronger than usual on me)

None of those factors affect Tryptamines for me. Even higher or lower dosages of most trypts don't significantly change the character of the experience like I get with acid. I've had some acid that purely tactile ( this was before I'd ever tried mdma) .

 

[Ismene]

None of those factors affect Tryptamines for me. Even higher or lower dosages of most trypts don't significantly change the character of the experience like I get with acid. I've had some acid that purely tactile ( this was before I'd ever tried mdma) .

You just have a very vivid imagination. LSD Is LSD - it's a set arrangement of atoms in a certain structure. There's no "atom out of the wrong place that works like LSD but makes it a bit more tactile LSD". It's simply all in your imagination.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

You just have a very vivid imagination. LSD Is LSD - it's a set arrangement of atoms in a certain structure. There's no "atom out of the wrong place that works like LSD but makes it a bit more tactile LSD". It's simply all in your imagination.

Yes, I actually made a point of stating exactly that all LSD that is synthed is supposed to be the same. But how well understood is LSD mechanism of action? Most people I believe will make the argument that unlike MOST other psychedelics LSD has a degree of variability every time you take it that I suspect is far more complicated than just set and setting.

Also, that purely tactile acid I had was years before I'd ever taken mdma. My girlfriend who dropped with me and had been using mdma for over ten years remarked many times in the evening how much this acid was like mdma. It had zero visuals and we ended up just having sex all night (it was our very first date). It was absolutley unlike any other acid I've ever taken. But we bought about 20 hits and had a very similar experience each time we took it.
We actually got 2 supposedly different batches of acid from that same dealer that night. If my memory serves correct it was blue Hieroglyphs and red Simpsons acid. The red Simpsons acid was purely tactile every time. It's possible that this was some other chemical but this was also almost 10 years ago and had no taste and was a very very very trustworthy source. (Close friend who actually cared about the spiritual aspect of spreading LSD and not about profit).

 

[Ismene]

Yeah ballz - I agree that LSD has a vast range of effects. But it's still just LSD.

What alternative do you have? That there's a thousand different molecules all active at the same dose as LSD but which cause slightly different effects? I think someone would have discovered them by now.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Again I'm not saying its a variation of the molecule but possibly how LSD is metabolized at the moment it's consumed, possibly not. We really do not have great understanding of how LSD works it's magic. It also, binds to a bunch of receptors that most other psychedelics don't (unless I'm mistaken ). You probably know a lot more the dynamics of LSD at an acedemic level. But even the best in this field don't understand it well. I'm pretty much basing my opinion on personal experience with LSD which had A LOT of experience with. Every time I do mushrooms it's more or less the same. Every time I do 4-aco-met it's pretty damn similar as the last time. Every time I score acid it seems to be very unique and I am aware of the many factors that could contribute this situation. All I'm saying I personally strongly suspect something more complicated is going on. I'm no chemist or even a scientist. But I do have a fascination with psychedelics and Especially LSD. I've always approached the subject with as much objectivity, intelligence, and reverence as I can. I know I'm not the only who feels this way.

I am hoping to secure some AL-LAD very soon and hopefully LSZ as well in the near future. I am very curious if the "variable" phenomenon is unique to ergoloids and Tryptamines are just a lot more consistent? As soon as I can I will explore these LSD analogues and see for myself I guess.

 

[Mudshark]

You just have a very vivid imagination. LSD Is LSD - it's a set arrangement of atoms in a certain structure. There's no "atom out of the wrong place that works like LSD but makes it a bit more tactile LSD". It's simply all in your imagination.

With respect , I am not so sure about this [ ^ ] ....
I feel that there are more variables to the experience than simply just the mcg dosage , set , setting , and the user's state of mind and physiology , etc ...
I suspect that the actual composition of the " acid " in the tab is also a very significant factor

I recall that during the 70's there was an abundance of different tabs in circulation in Australia - dots , domes , cones , clear lights , barrels , etc , etc , and there was indeed very significant differences between some of them that must have been due to more than just the mcg dosages . Some of it was said to have come from USA [ clear light , orange barrels , ] , and others were allegedly from Europe [ cones , domes , dots , etc ,] ...

I remember that one type was truly exceptional - " Welsh brown microdots " [ they looked like tiny squares of chopped up photograph negative , and came in between two strips of cellotape ] . These were just brilliant - no nausea , body load , jitters , or malaise at all when coming on . The first alert after an hour or so was for me on the first trip when a black and white poster started changing colours of day-glo fluro green and orange ; and the next 10 hours was indescribable brilliant visuals and ecstatic bliss , love , and cosmic knowledge .
Sadly this " Welsh " acid was pretty scarce and there was never much around , however , it certainly made all the rest [ which was also good ] look rather ordinary at the time ...
I have never seen anything like this "Welsh " acid in the decades since ...

Now , with the benefit of hindsight [ post " Operation Julie " ] , it is quite likely that the outstanding " Welsh " microdots were Richard Kemp's acid [ reported to be
the purest ever analysed in Dick Lee's book - the head Julie cop ] ; and according to " Leaf " Fielding [ " ...above the law " ] and Lee and other authors , Kemp had hit upon a method of production that did not produce any iso-LSD or other impurities whatsoever ....
Kemp's acid was said to be better than that produced by Sandoz ...

The Julie cops analysed the tabs of the time in Britain and discovered that there was predominantly two types of acid getting around , although it was being packaged in a variety of ways - [ dots , domes , cones , microdots , etc ] ...
One type contained iso-LSD , the other had no iso-LSD at all and was the purest ever to be analysed anywhere in the world , [ inc Sandoz acid ].

I have read somewhere [ Psychedelic Chemistry , M. V . Smith , I think , and elsewhere ] that the presence of iso-LSD is suspected to detract from the " cosmicity " of trips ...

Therefore , as Ismene suggests - LSD is LSD ...
BUT , it is variable in it's effects due to factors other than merely mcg dosages ...
There are in fact other variables to be considered [ I believe ] , including purity and the presence of iso- LSD .

 

[electrodevo]

Therefore , as Ismene suggests - LSD is LSD ...
BUT , it is variable in it's effects due to factors other than merely mcg dosages ...
There are in fact other variables to be considered [ I believe ] , including purity and the presence of iso- LSD .

I have seen various posts suggesting that the degradation impurities described in the TiKHAL entry (what Shulgin calls "iso-LSD", the epimerization degradation product, and "lumi-LSD", the oxidation product) may possibly be physically active even if not psychologically active, and perhaps account for some feeling differences. I don't see linked evidence to this one way or another, but that's a speculation.

Perhaps this is true of all of the "non-active" stereoisomers as well. LSD has four stereoisomers and care must be taken in synthesis to isolate the only hallucinogenic active one, d-LSD. Are the other three *completely* inactive? No idea.

All of this of course may make exact dosing difficult between batches I imagine. That, and chemical misrepresentation (it happened even in the old days, when ALD-52 was sold as "Orange Sunshine" LSD in the late 1960s!) can explain perhaps *some* variability in effects.

The human body itself can explain the rest.

 

[mission780]

I have seen various posts suggesting that the degradation impurities described in the TiKHAL entry (what Shulgin calls "iso-LSD", the epimerization degradation product, and "lumi-LSD", the oxidation product) may possibly be physically active even if not psychologically active, and perhaps account for some feeling differences. I don't see linked evidence to this one way or another, but that's a speculation.

Perhaps this is true of all of the "non-active" stereoisomers as well. LSD has four stereoisomers and care must be taken in synthesis to isolate the only hallucinogenic active one, d-LSD. Are the other three *completely* inactive? No idea.

All of this of course may make exact dosing difficult between batches I imagine. That, and chemical misrepresentation (it happened even in the old days, when ALD-52 was sold as "Orange Sunshine" LSD in the late 1960s!) can explain perhaps *some* variability in effects.

The human body itself can explain the rest.

Don't you think Guys that we would already know if the difference would be related to the "iso-LSD" or "lumi-LSD" or something alike?

I still think the psychedelics are mainly about sets and settings. I've been experiencing totally different trips with exactly the same material and the same dose. The other factors/variables (that I've mentioned in my previous post) do the rest. At least this is my experience and probably the experience of most people who take LSD.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Don't you think Guys that we would already know if the difference would be related to the "iso-LSD" or "lumi-LSD" or something alike?

I still think the psychedelics are mainly about sets and settings. I've been experiencing totally different trips with exactly the same material and the same dose. The other factors/variables (that I've mentioned in my previous post) do the rest. At least this is my experience and probably the experience of most people who take LSD.

Then why is 4-aco/ho-xxx so consistent compared to the LSD experience? Every single time I take 4-aco-dmt, 4-aco-met, 4-ho-det, etc it's extremely similar to the last time if the dosages are the same? I'm not say every trip I have with the same chemical is identical but very VERY similar to the point that I could tell 4-ho-mipt from 4-aco-whatever. I've taken acid MANY times where the overall experience is just so Godamn different. I like to trip regularly and this is definetly something that I've noticed is unique to LSD (maybe all Ergoloids?).
It is at least theoretically possible that Iso-LSD and Lumi-LSD might behave in a sort of sympathomimetic sort of way with actual LSD and is responsible for these reports of such variation in experience. Or, it just might be that LSD and it's cousins just tend to create a highly variable psychedelic state plain and simple. I really can't wait to run trials with Al-Lad to see how it compares to the "variable LSD experience". I highly suspect it to be the same.

 

[mission780]

Then why is 4-aco/ho-xxx so consistent compared to the LSD experience? Every single time I take 4-aco-dmt, 4-aco-met, 4-ho-det, etc it's extremely similar to the last time if the dosages are the same? I'm not say every trip I have with the same chemical is identical but very VERY similar to the point that I could tell 4-ho-mipt from 4-aco-whatever. I've taken acid MANY times where the overall experience is just so Godamn different. I like to trip regularly and this is definetly something that I've noticed is unique to LSD (maybe all Ergoloids?).
It is at least theoretically possible that Iso-LSD and Lumi-LSD might behave in a sort of sympathomimetic sort of way with actual LSD and is responsible for these reports of such variation in experience. Or, it just might be that LSD and it's cousins just tend to create a highly variable psychedelic state plain and simple. I really can't wait to run trials with Al-Lad to see how it compares to the "variable LSD experience". I highly suspect it to be the same.

Maybe LSD is able to trigger many more different mechanisms in our brains than other psychedelics. And because of that it is much easier to get very different experiences with LSD than with the other drugs.
(More mechanisms could effect more brain "parts" and each "part" might be in a different state each time we trip hence the interaction with LSD produces such a variety of different experiences).

 

[Nicklazz]

looking forward to try this, got 3 blotters coming my way

 

[electrodevo]

Don't you think Guys that we would already know if the difference would be related to the "iso-LSD" or "lumi-LSD" or something alike?

There is, unfortunately, very little research that I see out there. The only thing I found was this old paper which indicates that the isomers are practically inactive at serotonin, same with lumi-LSD. One saturated product called "d-dihydro-LSD" was half as active, I don't know if this occurs in nature or not.

My personal guess: dosing probably accounts for most if not all of any "variable experience".

LSD is typically sold in "blotters" with an unknown amount of chemical per blotter. It's also fragile. If you don't store it right, who knows how much you are taking and how much has decayed into mostly inactive molecules?

Mushrooms sometimes have widely variable reports and I think this too is the reason. Same with most street level chemicals (eg "molly"/"ecstasy" pills), with the added bonus of lots of impurities. (LSD is not immune from misrepresented product, too, and I can't rule out that in addition to the NBOMes some of the analogues may have made it on the street. Though I doubt many of them, only the few that are as or more potent than LSD to me would be candidates...)

In contrast, with the 4-ACOs / HOs, you can always measure the same mg every time. It is much easier to get a more consistent trip if you know how much you are taking. These chemicals seem to be far more stable, as a bonus. For an RC, they've suffered less from purity / misrepresentation issues for some reason.

I can't rule out activity of the decayed products, of course, because I see no information about them. I don't think the analogues of LSD have been studied very heavily since the 1950s Sandoz days. But dosing inconsistency makes more sense to me. LSD is so potent I think it would overwhelm any impurity's contribution.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

There is, unfortunately, very little research that I see out there. The only thing I found was this old paper which indicates that the isomers are practically inactive at serotonin, same with lumi-LSD. One saturated product called "d-dihydro-LSD" was half as active, I don't know if this occurs in nature or not.

My personal guess: dosing probably accounts for most if not all of any "variable experience".

LSD is typically sold in "blotters" with an unknown amount of chemical per blotter. It's also fragile. If you don't store it right, who knows how much you are taking and how much has decayed into mostly inactive molecules?

Mushrooms sometimes have widely variable reports and I think this too is the reason. Same with most street level chemicals (eg "molly"/"ecstasy" pills), with the added bonus of lots of impurities. (LSD is not immune from misrepresented product, too, and I can't rule out that in addition to the NBOMes some of the analogues may have made it on the street. Though I doubt many of them, only the few that are as or more potent than LSD to me would be candidates...)

In contrast, with the 4-ACOs / HOs, you can always measure the same mg every time. It is much easier to get a more consistent trip if you know how much you are taking. These chemicals seem to be far more stable, as a bonus. For an RC, they've suffered less from purity / misrepresentation issues for some reason.

I can't rule out activity of the decayed products, of course, because I see no information about them. I don't think the analogues of LSD have been studied very heavily since the 1950s Sandoz days. But dosing inconsistency makes more sense to me. LSD is so potent I think it would overwhelm any impurity's contribution.

I agree that mushrooms can be slightly variable but mushrooms have their own unique signature so much that regardless of dose it's not all that hard to tell mushrooms from the 4-aco-dmt. Every single tryptamine is SO much more consistent at least in terms of being able to tell the signature of the substance.
LSD, seems to have such a wide varaiation in so many of its effects. Sometimes the come up on 2 hits is extremely rough and jittery with extreme body load through and not much visuals. . Sometimes the come up on 6 hits of another batch has no noticeable come up at all, in fact no body load and is VERY visual. I highly suspect there is something more going on that just set and setting.

 

[Thomas Davie]

Got a question for people who have tried both LSZ and mushrooms (separately).

I've been eating mushrooms for about 22 months, once or twice a week in doses ranging from 0.67g to ~7.5g dried Cubensis. Never tried LSD; never had it available to me.

Found a source of LSZ and have ordered 3x150 ug blotter.

I intend to start with 1/2 tab, wait that out (a 2-3 hour coming up period?), and then move on to 1 tab a week or 2 later.

I know everyone is different. I expect a little bit of nausea, but can deal with that. Not too hot on getting tremors (4-HO-DiPT), but only a test will tell.

What is the headspace like on LSZ? Mostly introspection? Is it deep, and can you get caught in thought loops? (these don't bother me; I once stood in my grow room for over 2 hours just lost in thought).

I guess I'm asking if there is anything specific I should look out for. I don't have Benzo's, (I quit cold turkey about 5 years ago), but figure that the worst a bad trip would do is leave me in a quivering foetal position. Lots of water available, fairly healthy snacks/light food and plenty of distractions

I'm thinking it will be ~8-12 hours in length.

Any advice, tips, tricks, hints or pointers gladly accepted

thanks

Tom

( and no I am not asking what should I take or how much, that has already been decided)