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The Big & Dandy Ketamine Thread (Third Injection)

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Don't know why you say that, but you got me thinking: If you do big lines, then will your P450 cytochromes not get more 'saturated'? Increasing ketamine levels while norketamine levels rise more slowly?
That would be pretty much the opposite Shambles is saying - anyone can clear this up?
 
What's opposite about it? All he said was it = win, and I agree. He didn't say anything about cytochromes or norketamine.
I happen to enjoy smaller lines spaced out ~15min apart as opposed to the entire dose in 1 line. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I do dive in head first and rip a 300mg line, but lately I've been spacing things out and trying to make my k last longer. It dosen't have much to do with pharmacology, it's just personal preference.
 
I disagree, methods of administration and the spacing and size of your doses of substances cause different pharmacokinetics and therefore different peak plasma levels. Norketamine is a metabolite that I believe does much harm and that harm may increase exponentially when blood plasma reach higher values, you can probably consider it like internal organs have a threshold to tolerate stuff like this before it becomes a problem. Excess is a function of toxicity right?
The cytochromes are microsomal hepatic enzymes that are responsible for the conversion of ketamine into norketamine. Shambles didn't mention that but I did because I think it might be relevant to the equation.

Shambles did indeed say that smaller lines over time may be less harmful and less wasteful (read his equation). Of course we are comparing equal total amounts of ketamine for it to be a fair comparison.
So, what is different about the smaller lines over time? The peak plasma levels of ketamine itself and the metabolite, are factor nr 1.
What I was saying is that another factor that determines the levels of the metabolite is enzyme saturation. At some point - if one did big lines - ketamine could be like 'standing in line' to be converted meaning that you have high ketamine blood levels but topped off norketamine levels, which sounds to me like a win. The question is how fast this saturation is reached, it seems the harmful high peak plasma norketamine is a much stronger factor than enzyme saturation (if that happens at all) so I'm probably wrong. ;)

Another thing is that big lines are wasteful because a lot of it turns to drip, which is absorbed orally getting you less bang for buck but lots of norketamine from FP metabolism. I heard that you can only take like 75 mg per nostril per 10 minutes, practically, the rest is expelled to the throat. I think its an entirely believeable value, especially when the K is not 100 pure. Impurities that are not easily absorbed by the nasal mucosa could deter correct absorption.

Hopefully that clears up what is opposite about my suggestion but I do believe that I'm wrong about the enzyme factor, so I think the rest of what I said explains roShambo's logic.

:) Correct me if I'm wrong of course.

But as you can see there is definitely more to it than personal preference!

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Ha! I think too much weight is being put an a tossed together comedy ketequation - was just a stupidly convoluted way of saying to not waste your time hoofing half a gram of ket up yer nose in one shot cos you get more bang for yer buck doing it in smaller lines. No deeper thought or meaning was involved in that post, I can assure you :D

Oh, and the HR bit was mostly wishful thinking based on the idea you use less ket if you don't hoover up pointlessly big lines and swallow so much. I think we all know just as much ket will be consumed either way but you'll get more out of it if you don't waste as much in yer belly :)
 
Solipsis said:
I disagree, methods of administration and the spacing and size of your doses of substances cause different pharmacokinetics and therefore different peak plasma levels. Norketamine is a metabolite that I believe does much harm and that harm may increase exponentially when blood plasma reach higher values, you can probably consider it like internal organs have a threshold to tolerate stuff like this before it becomes a problem. Excess is a function of toxicity right?
The cytochromes are microsomal hepatic enzymes that are responsible for the conversion of ketamine into norketamine. Shambles didn't mention that but I did because I think it might be relevant to the equation.

Shambles did indeed say that smaller lines over time may be less harmful and less wasteful (read his equation). Of course we are comparing equal total amounts of ketamine for it to be a fair comparison.
So, what is different about the smaller lines over time? The peak plasma levels of ketamine itself and the metabolite, are factor nr 1.
What I was saying is that another factor that determines the levels of the metabolite is enzyme saturation. At some point - if one did big lines - ketamine could be like 'standing in line' to be converted meaning that you have high ketamine blood levels but topped off norketamine levels, which sounds to me like a win. The question is how fast this saturation is reached, it seems the harmful high peak plasma norketamine is a much stronger factor than enzyme saturation (if that happens at all) so I'm probably wrong. ;)

Another thing is that big lines are wasteful because a lot of it turns to drip, which is absorbed orally getting you less bang for buck but lots of norketamine from FP metabolism. I heard that you can only take like 75 mg per nostril per 10 minutes, practically, the rest is expelled to the throat. I think its an entirely believeable value, especially when the K is not 100 pure. Impurities that are not easily absorbed by the nasal mucosa could deter correct absorption.

Hopefully that clears up what is opposite about my suggestion but I do believe that I'm wrong about the enzyme factor, so I think the rest of what I said explains roShambo's logic.

:) Correct me if I'm wrong of course.

But as you can see there is definitely more to it than personal preference!
Click to expand...
I suppose I should've been more clear. I simply meant that pharmacology isn't what comes to mind when I'm deciding how to use my k. When I'm breaking up lines I don't think to myself "Hmm, what's the current status of my enzymes today? How fast can my liver metabolize ketamine without overtaxing it?" These are just unknowns.
You're right though, pharmacology is an important factor and I didn't mean to sound like it was irrelevant. What I meant by personal preference is that my nose is not in the best shape as it is, so I try to go easy on the little fella by not doing giant lines in one rip. That's all.

Sorry for the confusion :)
 
So last night I may or may not have witnessed the "conveyor belt" phenomenon often referred to by many Salvia users. I didn't feel as if I was on the belt per se, but I definitely saw a large column spinning with long rods protruding from the sides and something on the end of each one.

At first it felt as if I was swooping very close to the surface of the belt (I could not see the entire machine at this point) and then I was pulled away and given a birds eye view.

'twas amazing
 
Sure, we (and here by we I mean I) overemphasized the equation and stuff as mentioned, but being conscious of what is wise and what is not is always good to have in the back of your head I suppose. Sometimes, even when blazed, the thought just pops into my mind. Like the realization that holding cannabis smoke for more than 3 seconds does not get you higher apart from oxygen deprivation.
I think it couldn't hurt taking into consideration the tip to lay smaller K lines, just good practice.

My friend is always a little boggled about eyeballing lines, he just doesn't feel up to it like doesn't have a clue - even learning it does not seem like an option to him so he lets me do it.

Now I don't obsess about liver enzymes either when I'm K-ing but efficient use is just worth it IMO. I also sometimes lose sight of how fast I'm ramping up the dosage and occasionally I'm sorry that I don't regulate this better. Hence the consideration.

Plus I just found it a good topic to ramble about. The nootropics are working especially well today ;)

Next saturday I'm getting racemic K instead of the for me more regular isomers, which will come in handy since saturday night Ive got a triple birthday party all in the same house :D Racemic is way more suited for supplementing at parties than the S-isomer and sometimes the R-isomer has been too edgy (although at terribly high doses).

[/speech waterfall]
 
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So if you are doing smaller lines, can you snort a small line up each nostril? Or can you only snort 1 line up each nostril every ten minutes?

What im trying to say is does it still get absorbed properly if you do a small line up each nostril every 10 minutes?
 
A known method is to take small lines every 10 minutes until the desired effect is reached. This may be 75 mg or so - depending on some factors - per nostril but it could be that there is still a little bit going to drip. 50 mg per nostril / 100 total is better, you could space it a little bit less than 10 minutes.
This isn't exact science though, it depends on the pH of your nose, how moist and wide your nasal passages and sinuses are and other physiological factors.

But as a guideline, I suppose it's fine.
 
Solipsis said:
I heard that you can only take like 75 mg per nostril per 10 minutes, practically, the rest is expelled to the throat.
Click to expand...

Ketamine can dissolve in water up to 200mg/1ml. Would the nasal mucosa still have trouble absorbing the ketamine if it is already in solution?
 
Well my guess is that its not a simple yes or no. It would depend on the permeability which is affected by the pH and maybe other things. By putting it in solution you combat the problem of possibly drying out your mucosa a bit but I don't think a solution is just absorbed like that pulling the ketamine with it because the mucosa produces water rather than absorbing it, though other biological substances (snot :D ) is also produces which attracts some water. So chances are it works well against drying out and only very mildly as a carrier. It's still quite a good idea, if you use a nosespray its still best to spray with intervals than just pumping it up there. The solution will drip just as well, possibly even more easily because its a flowing liquid. So definitely don't soak, but with nosespray it should be able to dose more effectively IF you apply the technique that is most efficient for that ROA. Get the humidity of the mucosa just right between dry and runny.

$0.02
 
has anyone used poppers when on ketamine?

does it make the ketamine high more intense? Is it good or bad?

I can imagine it can give you a pounding headache?
 
how stable is ket in powder form? if kept in air-proof bag and in dark? will it go off in months or years? thnks.
 
YaniCZka said:
how stable is ket in powder form? if kept in air-proof bag and in dark? will it go off in months or years? thnks.
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It should be fine for quite some time. I can't imagine it degrading before many, many years.

I seriously prefer IMing (or even IVing) K to snorting it.

What's this about norketamine and the urinary tract? What causes urinary problems from ketamine abuse? How long do you have to abuse ketamine on average for that to happen?

I normally only use every now and then, sometimes I'll use the next day, but that's not often at all.
 
From what I understand only heavy users experience renal problems with ketamine use. I don't know exact figures but every now and then should be no problem. I've used ketamine everyday(.5g+) for almost 3 weeks a few times over the past couple of years and have never experiences any of the problems I've seen associated with ketamine abuse(gall bladder spasms, urinary tract infection, etc.)

Some threads that may be of interest -
[Ketamine Subthread] Long Term Side-Effects
[Ketamine Subthread] Dangers & Risks
 
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Pretty much the only people I've heard of that get really serious problems with the bladder etc are those that are using multiple grams daily. I doubt there are many drugs you could abuse to that degree that wouldn't have some nasty consequences. For the majority of casual recreational users you probably have little to worry about. Very heavy users certainly need to bear it in mind but even there it's not as common as you'd think given the number of ket addicts - many who have been massively abusing it for years. There are always those who get unlucky though and I've heard of it happening to heavy bingers (like myself) rather than longterm addicts too so worth knowing something of the risks just in case :)
 
I don't use ketamine very often though i had a perticulary bad bladder related incident after quite a heavy binge in leeds, I had been at a party and done quite alot and drank alot aswell, it wasn't until getting the train the next day when I had a really aching pain where my bladder is that I realised I hadn't taken a piss all night, so i went to use the train toilet and stood there a good five minuites trying to pee though I had really bad urinary retention (something I'd never had a problem with before this) eventually I managed to take the longest wizz of my life though for the next couple of days my bladder was really sore. Since then i've always made sure that I piss regularly when on ketamine though to be honest I try and avoid it unless im offered it for free.. one of my least favorite drugs.
 
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