☛ Official ☚ The Big & Dandy HBWR/MGS/LSA Thread - Part 3: Fluffy Dreams Continued

[red22]

Jonathan Ott lives in México on a ranch in the mountains of the state of Veracruz. His ranch bears the name “Ololiuhqui.” This name has its special significance. That is, Ololiuhqui is the Aztec name for one of the ancient Mexican magic drugs, the seeds of plants from the morning glory family (Convolvulaceae). Ololiuhqui has a connection to my friendship with Jonathan. My chemical investigations of Ololiuhqui seeds led to the unexpected discovery that the entheogenic principles of Ololiuhqui are alkaloids, especially lysergic acid amide, which exhibits a very close relationship to lysergic acid diethylamide (=ʟsᴅ). It follows therefrom that ʟsᴅ, which hitherto had been considered to be a synthetic product of the laboratory, actually belongs to the group of sacred Mexican drugs.

...

Albert Hofmann
Burg i.L., Switzerland
November 1992

From the foreword to Jonathan Ott's Pharmacotheon.
I uploaded the "Ergoline Complex" chapter in the previous post: https://files.catbox.moe/58pcay.pdf

When I discovered LSD, it was believed it was a product of laboratory. And then we discovered that this compound had existed already for thousands of years in the plant kingdom...not exactly LSD, but practically.

Albert Hofmann. Hofmann's Potion (documentary). (YouTube, 4:53)

Grof: Have you actually tried the [ololiuhqui] yourself?

Hofmann: Yes, I did. But, of course, it is about ten times less active; to get a good effect, you need one to two milligrams.

Grof: And what was that experience like?

Hofmann: The experience had some strong narcotic effect, but at the same time there was a very strange sense of voidness. In this [void], everything loses its meaning. It is a very mystical experience.

Stanislav Grof Interviews Dr. Albert Hofmann (1984). MAPS Bulletin 9.2 (Fall 2001): 22–35

The effective dose of lysergic acid amide is 1 to 2 mg by oral application.

Albert Hofmann. The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries. 1978, 2008. R. G. Wasson, Albert Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck, Peter Webster. Berkley, California: North Atlantic Books. pp. 39–41. ISBN 9781556437526 (2. A Challenging Question and My Answer, p. 40)

 

[red22]

A post so dumb it deserves to be archived:

There are many... probably hundreds to thousands of ergaloids and lysergimides, and most of the effects of these seeds comes from different molecules than actual LSA, as when experimented with pure labratory produced LSA from another skeleton that is workable, did not produce the effects of the seeds of these kind. Remember how potent LSD is, just 10-200MICROgrams is an active dose, so it makes sense that many ergaloids and lysergimides within ergot and the seeds have different active dose ranges. But now beyond speculational and scientific wordages,

I can, from experience, confirm that you can definitely get clean effects from smoking morning glory seeds weather it's on weed or not, and something else that works that seems to pick up some of the cleanest effects into the lungs is grinding seeds and putting the powder in your bong water, no matter if you are smoking tobacco weed or other plants, having the ground seed material in your bong water as you smoke actually let's the smoke pick up some sort of lysergimides and or ergaloids as it passes through the water, so here you have inhaleable lysergi without having to combust or heat the seed material at all. And trust me or try yourself, this has some of the cleanest LSD like effects I have experienced. You welcome, feel free to ask me anything pertaining to the topic and or my experiences

Human_notsomuch, Nov 15, 2024, reddit

 

[red22]

I've been improving ergoline-related articles on Wikipedia and I opted to say harsh words about Alexander Shulgin in my edit comments. In one of them I referred to Shulgin's comment as "garbage"* and in another I said "Fuck you, Shulgin."**


*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ergonovine&action=history

**https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ergoline&action=history

 

[red22]

The effect of these alkaloids in combination is similar to LSD and other hallucinogens, but more tranquil.

The First Book of Sacraments of the Church of the Tree of Life: A Guide for the Religious Use of Legal Mind Alterants. John Mann (ed.), 1972, San Francisco: Tree of Life Press (OLOLUIQUE and related sacraments in the Morning Glory (Bindweed) family, pg. 13)

 

[red22]

For the most part I agree Red. I was 19 when I did that. But there is a difference from seeds I just plucked off a vine and seeds sitting around for months. Something changes. Fresh Morning Glories and HBWS can be very strong and have little side effects and give a great trip. But I think somewhere in your post is the reason as maybe time changes the content. I have had fresh seeds that were as potent and nice as good LSD. Then again I have had stale seeds that all they did was give a slight effect and nausea. On the fresh I never got nausea. So I learned to only use fresh. Morning Glories thrive and grow like crazy. The vines always gave way more seeds than I could get to.. Honestly just once every few years to remind myself.

I am always the guy that says Morning Glories are underrated. If that were the only psychedelic on earth we would still be lucky. And even when I had great acid some years in the late Fall I would take some fresh seeds. They remind me of LSD with a natural spirit. I had some very strong visuals that felt great on some of those trips. Organic.

JackARoe, Dec 22, 2024, Bluelight

 

[red22]

This is a synthetic derivative of lysergic acid amide that has been described as a nootropic:

N,N-diacetoxyethyl 9,10-dihydrolysergic acid amide

CAS 109002-91-7

AWD 52-39, an ergot derivative with potential nootropic activity. Hoffman, W., Rostock, A., Siegemund, C., & Bartsch, R. 1989. Activitas nervosa superior, 31(1), 56–57

This paper isn't on the Internet, unfortunately.

I made a thread for it: https://www.bluelight.org/community...hat-has-been-described-as-a-nootropic.945177/

 

[Neuroborean]

I've had some of the most powerful psychedelic experiences on HBWR, like completely mind-blowing and incredibly euphoric. Sure the come-up can be a little ruff around the edges with some mild nausea and very confronting thoughts "not a bad thing in retrospect" the forced me to work thru inner issues. But at the three hour mark it shifts gears and becomes so pleasurable for me like on the level of MDMA but natural feeling and sedating. If the seeds are fresh it's a wonderful drug, I had a ++++ on ten seeds back in my early twenties.

For me hbwr euphoria it's on par with mdma, perhaps not the rushes of mdma or 3mmc but generally speaking, the "average feeling" of hbwr is more euphoric than any other drug I've tried, except for the "rushy" parts (let's not compare it with pyros, please, it's another type of euphoria).

 

[Esperighanto]

Has anybody here worked to try cleaning up an extraction, or have they sampled the output of their extraction through a mass spec yet? I'm working with a large amount of super old seeds to try to get a bulk quantity of LSA out, if so possible. I was reading the comments mentioning LSA as having a degradation product, or being a degradation product, honestly I couldn't tell.

 

[red22]

Copy of a post I just made on The Shroomery. Does anyone think they can get their hands on this stuff?

Albert Hofmann created a substance called lysergic acid hydroxybutylamide, which is used in obstetric medicine.[1] It is more commonly known as methylergonovine. It is very similar to ergonovine, which is a constituent of morning glory seeds. Jonathan Ott said that the effect of methylergonovine is "nearly identical" to the effect of ergonovine.[2] Albert Hofmann stated that ergonovine is the most LSD-like chemical in nature;[3] in fact, research shows that ergonovine is present in amounts one-third to one-tenth of LSA in morning glory seeds,[4] which explains why experiments with these seeds are so variable.

Here is a comment from someone who tried methylergonovine and compared it to morning glory seeds:

"The feeling was very, very similar to LSA minus the bodily discomfort and anxiety."[5]


Methylergonovine is a take-home prescription in the U.S.! I am very enthusiastic about trying it and I encourage others to try it too!


1. "In 1937, starting with naturally occurring lysergic acid, I prepared ergonovine, which by its chemical composition is lysergic acid propanolamide illustrated in Fig. 1. Lysergic acid is the nucleus common to most ergot alkaloids. It is extracted from special cultures of ergot and could also be prepared today by total synthesis if this procedure were not too expensive. I used the method developed for the synthesis of ergonovine for the preparation of many chemical modifications of ergonovine. One of these partly synthetic derivatives of ergonovine was lysergic acid butanolamide. This is used today in obstetrics, replacing to a major extent ergonovine, under the brand name ‘Methergine’ to stop postpartum haemorrhage."

Albert Hofmann. The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries. 1978, 2008. R. G. Wasson, Albert Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck, Robert Forte, Huston Smith, Peter Webster. North Atlantic Books: Berkely CA. 2. A Challenging Question and My Answer

I used a different synonym for methylergonovine in my first sentence. See 2.4.2 Depositor-Supplied Synonyms on methylergonovine's PubChem page.


2. "The effects of methylergonovine were nearly identical to the effects of ergonovine,"

Ott, J., Neely, P. 1980. Entheogenic (hallucinogenic) effects of methylergonovine. Journal of psychedelic drugs, 12(2), 165–166. doi:10.1080/02791072.1980.10471568


3. "No, that’s not true. Ergot contains many natural, highly psychedelic alkaloids. [Isoergine] is one of them; hydroxy-methyl-lysergamide is another one, and in fact, is considered nearly identical to LSD in effect. Albert Hofmann told me so himself. They believe that it was this derivative contained in extracts of [C. paspali] that was used in the [Eleusinian] Mysteries."

Interview with an Alchemist: Bear Owsley Interview. Bruce Eisner's Writings. Jan 10, 2004. https://archive.vn/RAUXH

"hydroxy-methyl-lysergamide" is a reference to ergonovine, i.e., one of ergonovine's synonyms is N-(α-(Hydroxymethyl)ethyl)-D-lysergamide.* Furthermore, Owsley references The Road to Eleusis and ergonovine is the focus of chapter 2 in that book. Also, the "many, highly psychedelic alkaloids" comment is a huge exaggeration.

2.4.2 Depositor-Supplied Synonyms on ergonovine's PubChem page.


4. Identification and determination of ergot alkaloids in Morning Glory cultivars. Nowak J, Woźniakiewicz M, Klepacki P, Sowa A, Kościelniak P. 2016. Anal Bioanal Chem. 408(12):3093-102. doi: 10.1007/s00216-016-9322-5

See Table 3.
Also, concentration values for "LSH", "Lyzergol/isobars", penniclavine, and chanoclavine can be obtained by dividing the concentration values of ergine or ergometrine by their relative abundance value of the specified chemical.


5. SlothLightSpeed, 2024-09-22, reddit.com/r/ObscureDrugs

 

[General alcazar]

Decades ago when I was living in Hawaii I ate an small handful of fresh morning glory seeds and, to my surprise, the effects were like a hit of LSD (maybe 75 mcg). I’d taken a lot of LSD to that point so I could tell. I was really surprised; I didn’t expect anything to happen. Cramping and nausea was minimal compared to my subsequent attempts with dried seeds. HWBR was so painfully vasoconstrictive I couldn’t enjoy the effects, though they were very active and my pupils were blown. LSDish minus any visuals, but I could barely walk my legs cramped up so much. I think I water extracted 8 seeds.
I’m pretty fascinated with the acetaldehyde extraction of morning glory seeds, though I haven’t attempted it yet (so many things to try). I’ll probably pick up some sherry and extract some Rivea corymbosa seeds I have at some point for the sake of curiosity.

 

[red22]

This summary was made by Grok after giving it this document:

Separation of four isomers of lysergic acid α-hydroxyethylamide by liquid chromatography and their spectroscopic identification. Flieger, M., Sedmera, P., Vokoun, J., R̆ic̄icovā, A., R̆ehác̆ek, Z. 1982. Journal of Chromatography A, 236(2), p. 441, doi: 10.1016/S0021-9673(00)84895-5


1. Spontaneous Decomposition

• The introduction notes that LAH "decomposes spontaneously" during fermentation production, resulting in a mixture containing ergine and erginine. This indicates that LAH is chemically unstable under typical fermentation conditions, leading to breakdown products.

2. Formation of Isomerization Products

• LAH undergoes isomerization, producing C(8) and C(9') epimers. The document mentions that these isomerization products are also formed when heating ergotamine or other cyclol alkaloids with dilute acid, suggesting that LAH's instability is exacerbated by heat and acidic conditions.

3. Complex Isomerization

• In the discussion section, the study explains that LAH isomerization is more complex than simple lysergic acid derivatives due to epimerization at both the C(8) position and the asymmetric carbon atoms in the side-chain. This results in four isomers (I, II, III, IV), which are hemiacetals derived from acetaldehyde and ergine or erginine.

• The reversible aldolization reaction contributes to LAH's instability, as evidenced by the mutual transformation of isomers (e.g., I to IV) observed during a 15-hour ¹³C NMR measurement, where signals of both C₁ atoms appeared.

4. Equilibrium in Fermentation

• The relative proportions of LAH isomers (I, II, III, IV), ergine (V), and erginine (VI) in the fermentation medium are described as the result of chemical equilibrium reactions, further highlighting LAH's tendency to interconvert and decompose under fermentation conditions.

5. Experimental Precautions

• Due to LAH's instability, the study took specific measures during extraction and chromatography to minimize structural changes:

• Extraction was performed at low temperatures (below 15°C) under reduced pressure.

• Chromatographic fractions were immediately evaporated to dryness at 5–10°C to prevent isomerization or degradation.

• These precautions underscore the need to handle LAH carefully to preserve its structure during analysis.

6. Artifact Formation

• The study confirms that ergine and erginine are likely "artifacts" arising from LAH decomposition, as observed during isomerization experiments. This supports the notion that LAH's instability leads to the formation of these compounds under various conditions.

In summary, the document details LAH's instability by describing its spontaneous decomposition into ergine and erginine, its complex isomerization involving C(8) and side-chain epimerization, and the equilibrium-driven transformations observed in fermentation and experimental conditions. The study also highlights practical measures to mitigate instability during analysis, emphasizing the compound's sensitivity to temperature, pH, and time.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Here is a comment from someone who tried methylergonovine and compared it to morning glory seeds:
"The feeling was very, very similar to LSA minus the bodily discomfort and anxiety."

Just for context, morning glory seeds contain several alkaloids. Fresh seeds contain high levels of LSH (lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide) which breaks down into LSA and acetaldehyde over time. So in older seeds the LSH has mostly become LSA.

There's also other potentially active alkaloids including penniclavine, elymoclavine & chanoclavine.

In this study, three extraction methods utilizing MAE, UAE-S, and UAE-B were assessed for identification and determination of ergot alkaloids in Morning Glory seeds. The analysis of seeds revealed that only three out of five kinds of seeds contained ergot alkaloids, all from Heavenly Blue cultivar, although from both Ipomoea purpurea and Ipomoea tricolor species. Every time, ergine, ergometrine, LSH, penniclavine, chanoclavine, and their isomers were identified together with a compound that may be lysergol or one of its isobars. Concentration of ergometrine in samples representative for a given seed pack was comparable with results from literature, but concentration in single seeds varied substantially. A similar situation was observed for ergometrine concentration, but there is no data in the literature concerning mean concentration of this compound.

Paper: 10.1007/s00216-016-9322-5

LSH is most stable in acidic conditions (this is partly implied in this paper https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ja01335a085)

LSH being a labile adduct also breaks down to LSA if not extracted into acidic solution like wine or lemon juice or peppermint oils or teas. Plain water will break it down to LSA. LSH is labile (unstable) and requires care to extract it or reform it, same with LSI. Like tregar recited on post #1 with pic, the Ancient Mayan and Aztec always extracted into balche, a wine or alcohol they made themselves.

On the difference in alkaloid content of HBWR and MG:

This is the paper that shows the alkaloid content of HBWR is vastly different from the alkaloid content of morning glory: Paulke A, Kremer C, Wunder C, Wurglics M, Schubert-Zsilavecz M, Toennes SW. Identification of legal highs—ergot alkaloid patterns in two Argyreia nervosa products. Forensic Sci Int. 2014;242:62–71.

No high levels of stimulating LSH, agroclavine, elymoclavine, chanoclavine, penniclavine found in HBWR seeds, only in morning glory seeds. A 2014 forensics paper from Paulke found no LSH in HBWR seeds, but only found LSA & iso-LSA (83-84%) & ergometrine (10-17%) & rest minimal: lysergol, elymoclavine & chanoclavine.

Just be careful if using HBWR seeds, as I have mentioned before, there are high amounts of ergometrine in HBWR seeds which cause cramping, vasoconstriction, and even bronchial vasoconstriction when ergometrine (not LSA) is adducted with acetaldehyde and other aldehydes as you will find some reports of this in the thread. If you use HBWR, just keep your dose low. Stick with morning glory seeds if possible, as they contain only trace amounts of ergometrine

The user @tregar has written extensively about this here, on shroomery.org and mycotopia.net.

It's from him that the peppermint/vinegar/LSA tek originates, based on peppermints isovaleraldehyde content. People forget to use vinegar which gives the ideal pH=4.

I was also the one that 20 years ago on the now defunct Lycaeum told everyone to add real peppermint mint drops and peppermint tea to their morning glory extracts, along with a teaspoon of vinegar to catalyze the reaction from LSA to LSI (just as potent as real LSD, only 1/10th) and it took off like wildfire cause it works, just google and you will find hundreds of enhanced trip reports way beyond LSA. Two mistakes people continued to make was they did not add the vinegar and they used HBWR seeds instead (big no no) as this forms a bad product from the ergometrine found in very high levels in the HBWR seeds which causes bronchial vasoconstriction, this does not happen if you use MG seeds, as it has only trace amounts of ergometrine. MG seeds have hundreds of years of Shamanic use, and HBWR seeds only have history of medicinal use, I agree with Logical Chaos on the use of MG seeds only.

 

[red22]

Someone's considering doing 50 HBWR seeds:

 

[red22]

Animals eating MG seeds and exhibiting effects: https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/animals-getting-their-party-on.372908/post-3967283

 

[Esperighanto]

The user @tregar has written extensively about this here, on shroomery.org and mycotopia.net.

Beware tregar, he's a notorious liar who also says a ton of super creepy shit, he has a million alt accounts across different sites, and he's something akin to a graphomaniac with an obsession to both do pivotal work from his kitchen (so far 100% failures) and his comments back in the day on the nexus about how he was excited to take his recently extracted mescaline to help him fantasize about the 14 year olds at the waterpark he was taking his kids to gave me a serious ick pertaining to him.

Someone's considering doing 50 HBWR seeds:

If this happens, I wouldn't be shocked by a death and imminent ban.

 

[tregar]

.

 

[red22]

None of the clavines even posess an amide functional group, so how are they even ergoamides?

And their role in psychoactivity is unknown or they're known to be toxic.

I don't know of a single post on BL about anyone consuming ergolines/clavines. I don't know of anyone besides myself that even posesses pure clavines.

Indeed, see my DMT-Nexus post where I mentioned clavines:

I'm way more interested in the ergolines, themselves, which can come from any of numerous sources, including synthesis from tryptophan. After recent MG seed experimentation, I was impressed at just how smooth and LSD-like the experiences were, but I was irritated by the effect on the body. According to Nowak 2016[1], penniclavine is the predominant chemical in these seeds. Ergoclavines have been associated with ergotism[2] and furthermore have never been associated with psychedelic effects. Someone who performed home chromatography on these seeds ingested the ergoclavine section and said, "Clavine caused hard vasoconstrion, nausea and pupil dilation but lacked psychedelic value. I could understand its medicinal value due to its vaso properties without altering consciousness but as a mind expanding compound I don't see its place."[3] So, naturally, I'd really like to see what the effect is like without the clavines; it should be noted that penniclavine is not necessarily found in substantial amounts in all batches of seeds,[4] just as lysergic acid propanolamide was found in one-tenth to one-third the amount of LAA.[1]

Speaking of lysergic propanolamide (more commonly known as ergonovine and ergometrine), it's fascinating that an analog of this substance is a take-home prescription and has psychedelic effects:

"The effects of methylergonovine were nearly identical to the effects of ergonovine, about which we reported earlier. However, we found methylergonovine to have roughly five times the entheogenic potency of ergonovine; that is, our 2.0 mg dose of methylergonovine was roughly as potent as a previous 10.0 mg dose of ergonovine. Both drugs share with LSD a characteristic complex of somatic sensations."

"both methylergonovine and ergonovine evoke lassitude and a dreamy semi-narcotic state, effects previously ascribed by Hofmann to d-lysergic acid amide"

From a Journal of Psychedelic Drugs article from 1980.[5]


"No, that’s not true. Ergot contains many natural, highly psychedelic alkaloids. [Isoergine] is one of them; hydroxy-methyl-lysergamide is another one, and in fact, is considered nearly identical to LSD in effect. Albert Hofmann told me so himself. They believe that it was this derivative contained in extracts of [C. paspali] that was used in the [Eleusinian] Mysteries." –Owsley[6]

"hydroxy-methyl-lysergamide" is a reference to ergonovine, i.e., one of ergonovine's synonyms is N-(α-(Hydroxymethyl)ethyl)-D-lysergamide.[7] Furthermore, Owsley references The Road to Eleusis and ergonovine is the focus of chapter 2 in that book.


"Never had any experience with LSD but did try LSA (Morning Glory) 3 times (around 80 seeds first time, 150 second and 380 last time). People say the feelings are very similar to LSD (not sure about the visuals)."

"The feeling was very, very similar to LSA minus the bodily discomfort and anxiety. I know lysergic acids share structure with phenethylamines so dopamine activity is bound to happen I guess. But the stimulation was very noticeable in Methylergometrine compared to LSA."

SlothLightSpeed, 2024-09-22, reddit.com/r/ObscureDrugs


I've found that both ergonovine and methylergonovine are available from foreign chemical suppliers. (y)


1. Identification and determination of ergot alkaloids in Morning Glory cultivars. Nowak J, Woźniakiewicz M, Klepacki P, Sowa A, Kościelniak P. 2016. Anal Bioanal Chem. 408(12):3093-102. doi: 10.1007/s00216-016-9322-5

See Table 3.
Concentration values for "LSH", "Lyzergol/isobars", penniclavine, and chanoclavine can be obtained by dividing the concentration values of ergine or ergometrine by their relative abundance value of the specified chemical.

2. "Clavines are thought to contribute substantially to convulsive ergotism, since C. fusiformis ergots, which possess clavines, but no [lysergic acid] or lysergyl amides, cause convulsive symptoms (26). However, the ergopeptines are known to produce similar symptoms, and are also thought to cause gangrenous ergotism (6). The occurrence of convulsive ergotism without dry gangrene suggests that other clavine or lysergyl alkaloids are involved, or that individual effects of specific ergopeptines may give clinically different syndromes (6)."

Schardl CL, Panaccione DG, Tudzynski P. 2006. Chapter 2. Ergot Alkaloids – Biology and Molecular Biology. doi:10.1016/s1099-4831(06)63002-2. [The Alkaloids: Chemistry and Biology vol. 63. pages 45–86. ISBN 978-0-12-469563-4] II. Through the Ages: A History of Ergot Alkaloid Use, Abuse, and Poisoning, p. 50

3. mrsnesbitsteaparty, 2023-10-13, reddit.com/r/LSA

Another comment of his:

"When isolating through chromatography you will notice 2 bands. First the thickest being Lsa the second being a small amount of lsh, the amount of which is dependent on how long ago the seeds where harvested from the vine. I person collect both lsa and lsh when fractioning the lysergaminde as lsh radically converts to lsa no matter what you do."

mrsnesbitsteaparty, 2023-10-13, reddit.com/r/LSA

4. "But only 2 clavines really are in the seeds in relevant amounts: Elymoclavine and Chanoclavine.
Usually there is only a quite small amount of Elymoclavine. Most is usually Chanoclavine.
I read many times in papers that Chanoclavine."

Aum_Shanti, 2017-07-17, https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/which-are-the-active-components-of-mgs.353658/post-3806693

5. Ott, J., Neely, P. 1980. Entheogenic (hallucinogenic) effects of methylergonovine. Journal of psychedelic drugs, 12(2), 165–166. doi:10.1080/02791072.1980.10471568

6. Interview with an Alchemist: Bear Owsley Interview. Bruce Eisner's Writings, Jan 10, 2004. https://archive.vn/RAUXH

7. https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/443884 See 2.4.2 Depositor-Supplied Synonyms

https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/new-fungus-discovered-on-morning-glory-seeds-that-produces-lysergamides.372440/post-3962152

So you have pure clavines, eh? Help me in my effort to dispel the rumor that they contribute an "entourage effect" to the use of MG seeds. I'm sick of seeing posts like this:

Anyway, his (and some others') theory is that it's possible that all the things people are doing to form adducts are actually just destroying LSA and allowing the other alkaloids to be more felt.

There are several other active alkaloids present in HBWR and MG seeds. You'll find papers discussing these alkaloids. This quote is about MG seeds:

Elymoclavine
Agroclavine
Penniclavine
Isopenniclavine
Chanoclavine
and lysergol.

Ayr, 2025-08-18, https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/lsh-lsi-doubts.372333/post-3967503

 

[Allylbenzene]

LSDish minus any visuals, but I could barely walk my legs cramped up so much.

Vasodilators to the rescue!

Ayr, 2025-08-18

Yup, thats me. I shared the papers about indole-nitrogen adducts and allylbenzene metabolites (amongst other things) and all posts were removed.
I used the same profile picture, I wasn't exactly trying to conceal my identity.

I'm working with a large amount of super old seeds to try to get a bulk quantity of LSA out, if so possible. I was reading the comments mentioning LSA as having a degradation product, or being a degradation product, honestly I couldn't tell.

It should be quite easy to get the lysergamide/clavine alkaloids out. Any LSA adducts that are present (usually just LSH) will degrade into LSA and acetaldehyde in non-acidic conditions. Essentially the reverse conditions used to form amide-aldehyde adducts in the first place, as detailed in this paper.
Aldehyde—Amide Condensation. I. Reactions between Aldehydes and Acetamide

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ja01335a085

LSA...OR NOT?

Alkaloid extracts should not be referred to as LSA, unless one has purified LSA and eliminated all other alkaloids found in the seeds etc. Shulgin and many others who researched this stated they did not think that LSA was the active alkaloid in these seeds, but that other alkaloids were. LSA is the majority alkaloid, but there are others present that are much more likely candidates for psychedelic effects.

Who has been able to obtain pure LSA from a chemical supply house and taken it?

The only accounts I know of using pure LSA are not psychedelic accounts.

I feel as if the conjecture surrounding LSA is incredibly misleading.

Do we have data showing that active extracts or seeds are pure LSA and nothing else?
Can someone provide links to the analysis data or post it?

 

[red22]

Rebuttal to the claim that occaisonally pops up on forums that the clavines in these seeds contribute a desirable effect:

"Clavines are thought to contribute substantially to convulsive ergotism, since C. fusiformis ergots, which possess clavines, but no [lysergic acid] or lysergyl amides, cause convulsive symptoms (26). However, the ergopeptines are known to produce similar symptoms, and are also thought to cause gangrenous ergotism (6). The occurrence of convulsive ergotism without dry gangrene suggests that other clavine or lysergyl alkaloids are involved, or that individual effects of specific ergopeptines may give clinically different syndromes (6)."

[6. Convulsive ergotism: epidemics of the serotonin syndrome? Eadie, M. J. 2003. Lancet Neurol, 2(7), 429–34. 10.1016/s1474-4422(03)00439-3]

[26. Toxic effects of mycotoxins in humans. Peraica, M., Radić, B., Lucić, A., Pavlović, M. 1999. Bull World Health Organ, 77(9), 754–66
https://iris.who.int/items/bea5bbd0-9c90-4aa9-b9ff-9da3c31ec99c]

Schardl CL, Panaccione DG, Tudzynski P. 2006. Chapter 2. Ergot Alkaloids – Biology and Molecular Biology. 10.1016/s1099-4831(06)63002-2 [The Alkaloids: Chemistry and Biology vol. 63. pages 45–86. ISBN 978-0-12-469563-4] II. Through the Ages: A History of Ergot Alkaloid Use, Abuse, and Poisoning, page 50


"Clavine caused hard vasoconstrion, nausea and pupil dilation but lacked psychedelic value. I could understand its medicinal value due to its vaso properties without altering consciousness but as a mind expanding compound I don't see its place." –comment from someone who performed home chromatography on I. tricolor seeds [mrsnesbitsteaparty, 2023-10-13, reddit.com/r/LSA]

Additional comment from him:

"When isolating through chromatography you will notice 2 bands. First the thickest being Lsa the second being a small amount of lsh, the amount of which is dependent on how long ago the seeds where harvested from the vine. I person collect both lsa and lsh when fractioning the lysergaminde as lsh radically converts to lsa no matter what you do." [mrsnesbitsteaparty, 2023-10-13, reddit.com/r/LSA]


"Even the seldom faulted Merck Index lists chanoclavine as a possible active principle of ololiuhqui, a lysergic acid related alkaloid present in minor quantities in some samples of ololiuhqui and ergot as well, although no reports of its psychoactive nature have ever been reported. And indeed, if we believe the testimony of those who have told us how the Central American shamans prepare ololiuhqui, namely by cold water extraction of finely powdered seeds, then chanoclavine must be ruled out as it is almost totally insoluble in water. Chanoclavine is not even an amide. Nor has anyone shown any other chemical species in ololiuhqui to be suitably psychoactive."

Peter Webster. Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess and the Secrets of Eleusis. Carl A.P. Ruck (editor). 2006. Ronin Publishing. Chapter 15: Mixing the Kykeon Anew, p. 181.


"And I really doubt chanoclavine would be active. Of all the 4 isomers of LSD, only 1 is active. It seems to rely quite heavily on the optical specificity. With chanoclavine, the carbon (8 on LSD) is unsaturated and achiral. If it has any biological activity, I'm betting it would be well into the milligram range." [i_was_the_walrus. 2015-03-22. personal correspondance.]


A recent study* identified between 3–5 ergoclavines in these seeds. It's a range because it wasn't able to distinguish between lysergol, setoclavine, and elymoclavine.

"The term "isobars" refers to molecules with the same nominal mass (integer mass) but potentially different chemical structures or elemental compositions." –Grok

"In Table 1, the compound at RT 6.49 minutes is noted as 'lysergol or its isobars (setoclavine or elymoclavine).' This suggests that the mass spectrometry detected a compound with a precursor ion m/z of 255.149, which could correspond to lysergol or other compounds with the same nominal mass, specifically setoclavine or elymoclavine." –Grok


All of these clavines were found in much lower amounts than ergine, the predominant ergoamide (syn. lysergamide), except for penniclavine, which was actually predominant over all.

These are averages between three batches of seeds for all the ergolines, compared to ergine:

Ergonovine	22.1 ± 2.9%
LSH	46.8 ± 4.5%
Lysergol/Isobars	5.9 ± 0.7%
Chanoclavine	24.1 ± 2.6%
Penniclavine	201.2 ± 22.2%

This data re-affirms what another person who looked at various older studies said:


But only 2 clavines really are in the seeds in relevant amounts: Elymoclavine and Chanoclavine.
Usually there is only a quite small amount of Elymoclavine. Most is usually Chanoclavine.

Aum_Shanti, 2017-07-17, https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/which-are-the-active-components-of-mgs.353658/post-3806693


*Identification and determination of ergot alkaloids in Morning Glory cultivars. Nowak J, Woźniakiewicz M, Klepacki P, Sowa A, Kościelniak P. 2016. Anal Bioanal Chem. 408(12):3093-102. doi: 10.1007/s00216-016-9322-5

 

[red22]

Blocked by shulginfoundation for posting this on one of their posts:


"Over 200 compounds synthesized and tested."

One compound he didn't synthesize or test is lysergic acid amide. He actually published one of the stupidest things that has ever been published in psychedelic literature about this compound. He says lysergic acid amide does not contribute to the psychedelic effects of morning glory seeds. He actually read a description of the effect of LAA that was published by Albert Hofmann and included a butchered paraphrasing of Hofmann's description in TiHKAL, which is much more popular than any of the few publications that contain descriptions of pure LAA.

"This is an active compound and has been established as a major component in morning glory seeds. […] The epimer, inverted at C-8, is isoergine or d-isolysergamide, and is also a component of morning glory seeds. […] Both compounds are probably correctly dismissed as not being a contributor to the action of these seeds."

Some quotes from Hofmann, for the record:

"… tiredness, apathy, a feeling of mental emptiness and of the unreality and complete meaninglessness of the outside world."[1]

"Already at that stage we had, in experiments on ourselves, ascertained a psychotomimetic activity with a marked narcotic component with dosages of 0.5 to 1 mg."[1]

"The experience had some strong narcotic effect, but at the same time there was a very strange sense of voidness. In this void, everything loses its meaning. It is a very mystical experience."[2]

 
"Not a contributor to the action of these seeds."

Thanks a lot, Shulgin. As if LAA didn't have a bad enough reputation to begin with. You have discouraged an untold number of people from experimenting with something that is readily available…unlike those 200 compounds.

"Im actually pretty suprised LSA doesnt get more attention as it is a truely great substance. I can actually admitt I like it evenly with LSD. All you hear about is people eating Hawaiian Baby Woodrose Seeds or Morning glories or sometimes Ololiuhqui. Some people even make crude alcohol extractions. I made a purified extract, with staggering results." (Kash, 2012-03-05, DMT-Nexus: Pure LSA Extraction (324044))
 

References

1. The Active Principles of the Seeds of Rivea corymbosa and Ipomoea violacea [sic]. Albert Hofmann. 1963-11-22. Cambridge, MA: Botanical Museum, Harvard University. doi: 10.5962/p.168542. Pharmacological and clinical activity of the isolated alkaloids

2. Stanislav Grof Interviews Dr. Albert Hofmann. 1984. MAPS Bulletin 9.2, Fall 2001: 22–35.