Dissociatives The Big & Dandy Amanita Mushrooms Thread

[IGNVS]

i didnt think it was metabolized in any way, leaving the body as is...

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Oh, shit, now you know why I take piracetam...and what happens when I don't

My brain falls asleep and fucks off elsewhere.

Although, not all of it is recycled, that is, recycled if one chooses to indulge in a little watersports, personally, not a cat in hells chance of that happening, yeech

Still, be careful.

 

[Entropymancer]

Limpet, I haven't tried piracetam with fly agarics, nor have I read about it, though I think I saw a thread on the topic when I searched this site.

so you only count 5HT2A-agonists as psychedelic? to me, "inebriant with the capacity to produce visionary experiences" is equivalent to psychedelic, and alcohol and xanax don't have this property, and ambien only in a very limited sense.

Not exactly. Most of the things that I would call psychedelic are 5HT2A agonists, but not all of them. Tetrahydroharmine, for example (and its source plant, Banisteriopsis caapi) I would very much consider to be psychedelic. Ketamine, too, feels quite psychedelic to me despite its activity being antagonist at NMDA receptors.

My definition of psychedelic comes from its root morphemes, "mind manifesting". To me, the production of visual phenomena is almost irrelevent to classifying something as a psychedelic (although many psychedelics do produce visual phenomena, which can be quite interesting). The critical defining aspect of a psychedelic is its mental effects, opening your mind to a perception of your thought processes, social models & constructs, etc. They reveal aspects of your mind which typically remain obscrued during your sober mind's standard operating procedure.

It sounds like you feel that the production of visual phenomena is the central defining feature by which something can be classified psychedelic. To me, this seems like quite a bizarre notion; if that were the case, they'd be called opthalmodelics, not psychedelics. You say that "inebriant with the capacity to produce visionary experiences" is equivalent to psychedelic". I take strong issue with that. Benedryl in a large enough dose is quite inebriating, and produces some very singular visual phenomena... does that mean benedryl is a psychedelic? I'd say absolutely not, because its mental effects are inebriating, not mind-manifesting.

Likwise with fly agarics, their mental effects are not in the least bit psychedelic. You may have the sensation of having the great secrets of the universe unveiled to you (though when looked at in the sober light of day this invariably turns out to be incoherant gibberish). The visual phenomena and trance-like dreams often have the snesation of being of crucial importance, but they do not seem to reflect the inner mind of the individual. There is nothing psychedelic (mind-manifesting) about the experience.

The fly agaric is absolutely entheogenic, as they can inspire the feeling of communing with a deity, delving deep into the Mysteries and the great unknown. But they are not psychedelic, at least if you use the word in a manner consistent with its root meaning. Entheogen and psychedelic are not interchangeable synonyms.



Propyl Power, I've seen the Soma Shamans site and have a deep mistrust of them. While I have no doubt their practical knowledge is great, they are very underhanded in the information they present on that site. He warns that purchasing fly agarics from an online vendor can be deadly, and implies that people have died from eating fly agarics purchased from JLF (in reality, these deaths were from research chemical overdoses, and amanitas weren't involved in any way). He claims to have devised an antidote that allows him to safely eat death caps/destroying angels, and yet he makes people buy his book to find out how. If this is a legitimate claim, then it's something he should have informed the medical field about so they can prevent deaths from accidental amatoxin poisonings. Furthermore, he claims that fly agarics are safe to eat as a sacrament, and that there is no harm from the mushroom, then he goes on to claim thathe is dying as a result of his use of the mushroom. On top of being an overly-commercialized modern day medicine man (with overtones of egomania), he seems like a dangerous source of information.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Sheesh, that guy claiming he can eat amatoxic fungi...

What the hell can I say to that..nothing that isn't peppered with short anglo-saxon words anyway

Since when did enzymes have religion (I'm thinking RNA polymerases that get buggered sideways by amatoxins), guy needs a good dose of his own erstwhile medicine, and I don't mean the fly agarics.



Quote from the site:


#10 - Q: "What's the best way to take Amanita?"

A: Raw, for spiritual power.


Again, some medicine man he is, a liar and a quack, makes me wonder if the mushrooms would work well enough against pain for him after a swift size 11 boot in the bollocks.

Claiming A.Phalloides and co are 'heavier duty, for professionals only' christ this arsehole is actually going to kill somebody sooner or later.

One thing I DID notice, is that there are pictures of A.Muscaria at the egg stage, that he seems to be harvesting, and transplanting into soil, and allowing the fruit bodies to expand there instead of naturally, preventing them from maturing in the wild, maturing, releasing spores etc, and contributing, like a cunt, to depletion of the population.

For someone whos mind is supposedly expanded, I think it could take some more expanding, preferably from a well-thrown brick

I'm going to quit reading that now, I'm feeling venomous enough already tonight, any more crap in that vein and I'l end up biting somebody

 

[Entropymancer]

Limpet Chicken, here's some encouraging news about fly agaric as an anxiolytic:

http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=20161

Anti-Stress Drug?

(Ivanhoe Newswire) -- Doctors are finding promising effects from a drug that could make stress disappear.

In a small test on rats that were put under stressful conditions, researchers found exposing them to a small dose of muscimol -- a drug that temporarily inactivates the amygdala region of the brain -- eliminated the effects of stress completely.

“It was as if the experience had never happened to them,” Lauren Jones, a University of Washington psychology doctoral student, was quoted as saying. “Inactivation of the amygdala took the stress away.”

Neuroscientists say stress can have long-lasting effects on cognition, including memory, learning and decision making processes. Stress can also contribute to anxiety, depression, schizophrenia and drug-use relapse in humans.

Doctors caution more tests will need to be done to understand how deactivation of the amygdala relates to stress.

SOURCE: Presented at the Society for Neuroscience’s annual meeting in Washington, D.C., November 18, 2008

See this Science Daily story for some more detailed discussion.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Thanks for that, time for me to get reading, hm...come to think of it, maybe a good dose of fly agarics would make me forget I wanted to kick the blue-ringed shite out of a pair of erstwhile druid-fakers

Its fairly well known that muscimol switches off fear states, would tie in well with tales of raging, fearless berserkirs.

Isn't it muscimol thats known in mol. bio. circles as the toggle switch toxin?

Or is that ibotenic acid, I'm fairly sure its one of the two.

What I would like to know though are its effects on memory, as I'm seeing a memory specialist at the moment, due to bollocksing my memory up completely a few years ago.

 

[BiG StroOnZ]

I'm going to contribute to this thread using the information I've gathered when using it.

1) Mixes well with almost all foods, cooking with Amanitas is very traditional in both Italian and Japanese cuisine. I used to make Traditional Italian Gravy (similar to Marinara Sauce) with Amanitas, and the flavor was always intense.

2) Makes a really unique tasting tea, just like Fruity Pebbles (Sugar, Honey, Lemon & Lime, Amanitas, Boiling Water)

3) Cannabis + Amanitas = Absolute Heaven. If you like Opium, or Benzos mixed with Cannabis. Then Amanitas with Cannabis will blow your mind away, and I'm just talking about in low dosages.

Someone mentions above that he went by a guide using teaspoons. That's how I used to measure it. Except, ground up fine, like a powder and flake. It really made the measurement to intensity ratio easy to control.

I usually used two teaspoons (tea method), and smoked some Cannabis (.8 g). That was surprisingly satisfying altogether; just the right amount of both

One time I broke off a piece the size of my fingernail (thumb) and dropped it into a Vitamin Water (Balance - Cran-Grapefruit - (Vitamin C + Glucosamine). As I wanted to test out the potency, in a cold environment instead of cooked, boiled, or heated. To sort of put a finger on whether or not heat is destructive to the active components of the Mushroom.

This is what I discovered and it was quite peculiar to me. Thus far I was using all measurements as teaspoons (Mushroom ground fine as I said previously), using a maximum of 4-6 teaspoons in a larger cooked environment, or 1-2 tsp boiled.

I believe, boiling or heating the Mushroom lessens the overall potency, because that finger-nail sized piece of Grade-A, Amanita (That I dropped into an ice cold Vitamin Water) was equivalent in strength to what I would say about 4-6 teaspoons heated or boiled.

The inebriation, clearheadedness, and overall state of mind was terrific. Very relaxing, like taking a respectable dosage of Klonopin. I also combined it with Cannabis, about .7 g of dank. The experience could be described as a multi-layered body buzz; Starts in your head then moves along down your spine, and finally finds it way to the nervous system. The world seems like a comfortable emulation, and you have this third-person perspective in your own three dimensional virtual world. Everything looks surreal, in a good way though not overwhelming (like with psychedelics).

It's as if the Amanita is the Yin, and the Psilocybin is the Yang. If the Psilocybin breaks the Third-Eye and unlocks a trillion years of hidden thoughts, in a onslaught of powerful and emotional thought-looped bursts. Then the Amanita would be the complete opposite of that; you experience the mindset of the plant or fungi itself (Where Psilocybin would be the spirit of the plant or fungi). No thoughts, at all; absolute emptiness like in Space. Black and ever so vast, but everything inside it is so bright and beautiful. No worries, no problems, not here, not now, not ever. Nothing needs to be discovered, nothing needs to be found, everything is perfect, don't fix a thing.

This is what I would call, the ultimate "God-Head." If the Psilocybin breaks the ego until it's gone, then this revitalizes the ego making it pure.

Cliffnotes:

Amanitas prepared cold are stronger than hot. (Just drop a small piece of the cap into your drink already and try it)

Amanitas + Cannabis FTW!

Perfect natural Anti-Anxiety substitute, like God's Kolonopin, honestly

This is the bread that Jesus was talking about.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

I think these last few posts have convinced me to take the bags out of the dessicator and give them a good go, as soon as I've had time for the phenibut I took today to wash out of my system.

Any experience not putting them in water, and just doing the old toss-and-wash method? any nausea? I've tried it as a tea, and while not unpleasant, it wasn't something I would drink purely for the taste either, there strikes me something WRONG about tea that tastes meaty, or at least, bloody strange.

Sounds like just the ticket right now, to liven up this miserable, pissing cold winter.

Do you find at all, that it blocks any sensory input? it seems like it well might, and for people like me, autistic people in this case, excessive sensory input is just what needs a good kick in the kidneys while its down.

And damn right I like weed and opiates/benzos, or better, all three, nothing better on a dog-shit-nasty kind of day than a bong, and a mixed handfull of painkillers and ativan

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Right, lets see what this mushroom has to offer me

Just had some tea, just 2-2.5g as weighed dry on my mates not great, but not shitty 100mg range scale, had my usual piracetam at 1g earlier as well though, I'l report back once I see what it has to say, so to speak.

Thus far, no need to wear 4 leather jackets over the top of each other inside any more, could do with the boost today, its what I hate most, both damn bright sunlight AND cold enough to freeze the bollocks off a polar bear out here at the moment.

 

[Entropymancer]

I'm sure it's been mentioned before here, but making sure you've properly identified your mushroom is absolutely critical if you're picking fly agarics. While you're not apt to mistake a death cap or a destroying angel for a fly agaric, there are look-alike species whose toxicity is unknown that can be mistaken for Amanita muscaria by an amature.

For that reason, I wrote a guide to hunting fly agarics in North America. In addition to covering the identifying traits and the North American look-alikes, I also discuss the different varieties of the fly agaric (all these different varieties were confusing to me when I first started learning about the mushroom, so I figured I'd share the info.

Anyway, here's my Guide to Hunting Fly Agarics in North America. Even if you think you know what you're doing, reading it still isn't a bad idea. I tried to keep it as brief and engaging as I could.

(This site uses a different UBB code than the shroomery, but when I get a chance I'll change it into a form that can be posted here)

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Very well written and thought out guide there man, I applaud the effort you went to.

Here in the UK many of the subspecies either don't occur, and indeed few of the others, we get blushers everywhere though (A.Rubescens, edible cooked, contains some kind of heat-labile haemolytic toxin raw though)

Only half-decent lookalike I've ever SEEN thats not to say of course they don't exist, and I haven't been everywhere even in my own country , is A.Crocea, although it doesn't have the warts, and has a much more prominent volva than Muscaria does.

Panthers are rare, and I wouldn't touch them with a twenty foot greasy pole, at least, not without a chromatographic seperation to isolate muscimol on its own, there are...other things in there, aside from muscimol and muscarine, theres a discussion I started in ADD somewhere, few pages back probably by now, where I asked about two pyran-based compounds that look like distantly similar, but not distant enough, of acromelic acids, which are found in certain Clitocybe species, and are really NASTY glutamatergic neurotoxins, and shockingly potent, quantatively.

The compounds in Pantherina are not THAT closely related, but have been known to have differing effects in different species, amphibian and the like, that species dependent, are either kainate or AMPA type neurotoxins, interestingly memory loss has, I later found out, been reported for Pantherina intoxication, although I found only two definitive reports, that to me, is much more than enough to suggest a possible AMPA agonist, which COULD have effects similar to domoic acid, although from the sound of it, much less dangerous than domoic acid, at least, at concentrations found in the mushroom (there is not much of either stizolobic or stizolobinic acid to be found, but it is present, at least in some chemotypes of the species)

I reckon A.Muscaria has been unfairly maligned over the years, and has at least to the general public (maybe a good thing ) and in reference books (definately a bad thing IMO) aqquired a reputation of being a considerable sight more toxic/lethal than it actually is.

Panthers on the other hand, I've had a feeling about those things since I was a little kid and first started out being interested in mycology, that they had a lot more potential for harm than the Muscaria.

Do you know anything about A.Gemmata? its a member of the muscaria-like chemotype general family rather than amatoxic, as far as I know, and has been known to cause muscimol type intoxications, Phillips lists it as deadly in his guide to european fungi, wouldn't bloody eat the thing (and besides its really rare here, you have more change of seeing A.Verna even, in the UK than A.Gemmata, and that itself is very rare)

I'd love to know more about its chemotype(s?) though.


I'l try and do a report on the pieracetam/low dose amanita combination though when I have some free time, I ended up taking a low dose of phenibut and having a few drinks at what seemed to be the very tail-end of it to sleep, but for what its worth as a report, I'l write it all up anyhows.

 

[Entropymancer]

I'm really on the fence about A. pantherina. There are some people (most notably Jonathan Ott) who regard it as simple a more potent (in terms of muscimol and ibotenic acid) alternative to fly agarics. On the other hand I've run across claims that panthers contain other chemicals that may be toxic or undesirable (I've never seen reference to what these chemicals might be, do you happen to have any sources on that?). Also, though I've read claims that A. pantherina is associated with fatalities, I've been unable to find conrete evidence of any fatal poisonings within the last hundred years.

To confuse matters further, some people recommend using A. pantherina over A. muscaria, citing the lower incidence of musarinic side-effects (from their personal experience). Others warn against using A. pantherina, citing its higher incidence of muscarinic side-effects (again, typically from personal experience as I recall). I think European and North American panthers may differ in chemotype, just as fly agarics do. The European panther may have substantially more muscarine (or other undesirable chemicals), while the western North American panther contains very little muscarine. (The opposite is tru for fly agarics, where North American specimens are more frequently reported to produce substantial muscarinic side-effects when consumed in large doses than European ones).

At some point I'll ahve to do some hard research on it, but for the moment fly agarics are my primary subject of interest.

As to A. gemmata, I know it contains ibotenic acid and/or muscimol (as do A. multisquamosa, A. frostiana, and A. crenulata), but I have absolutely no idea what other chemicals it may contain, which makes it something to avoid in my book. But I am curious about the specific chemotypes of these mushrooms, particularly A frostiana since it's so easy for northeastern americans to mistake it for their local A. muscaria var. guessowii.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Oh absofuckinglutely, I wouldn't touch A.Gemmata if it was the last mushroom on the face of the planet, I mean, what else is white-cream, white gills, white spores, big sacklike volva and ring....doesn't take a genius to run a meixner test, but that of course, only detects amatoxins.

Speaking of which, the meixner test would I think be a good thing to include in your guide, its quite accessible to amateurs, requiring only concentrated hydrochloric acid and newspaper (and of course, a suspected nasty mushroom, plus preferably but not vitally, a control sample of a known amatoxic species, amanita, conocybe, galerina, lepiota et al)

I think with panthers, regardless of KNOWN toxicity, and they are obviously more so than the fly agaric, in many respects, the even suspected prescence of stizolobic acid (or its relative stizolobinic acid which is less potent), should rule out its consumption, if in doubt, fung it out, so to speak, possible highly potent kainoid or quisqualate receptor agonists, that kinda ligand causes massive Ca++ influx into cells and excitotoxicity, and literally fries your brain alive.

I haven't read of any definate fatalities, but phrases from incautious use that include 'hell', 'hospital' and similar words are the rule rather than the exception, although granted people in general do not seem to take appropriate caution with either species.

I don't off the top of my head know of any fatal poisonings, but given what it does to dogs (very sensitive to both species and can easily be fatally poisoned)...

Granted I am not a dog.

But, I think, although A.Muscaria has little potential to kill, although doubtless it will cleanse the gene pool of its floating turds if stupidly abused, A.Pantherina could screw over even quite careful experimenters, especially those who might not spend way too much time digging up taxonomy and chemical analysis papers dedicated to the mycology of their particular region.

And hell, even the maggots don't eat it, which is a bit unnerving to me, fly agarics are often riddled, never seen a panther with a maggot in it.

 

[Entropymancer]

I think including the meixner test would only serve to encourage recklessness. If you're unsure enough of the identification to perform the meixner test, you need to chuck the mushroom (or seek the advice of experts, like the good folks at the Shroomery's Mushroom Hunting forum). Any fly agaric look-alike will give a negative result to that test, and I can only imagine that a negative result would lead some people to recklessly eat the mushroom no matter what warnings are included.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Yeah, good point.

BUT, with that caveat, as you so preemptively state, do you not think it would be a good way to encourage people to get down and dirty in the mycology field?

If a very atypical 5 year old could teach himself it, surely your average joe could be taught.

And a graphic description, maybe a few case reports of amatoxin poisoning would scare the shit out of anybody not so cretinous as to nescessitate rapid and efficient removal from the human gene pool

And paler amanitas COULD be mistaken for something pale and noxious, such as A.Ocreata perhaps, and in particular, A.Smithiana and A.Proxima come to mind, they don't contain amatoxins, but they do pack some very rapidly acting nephrotoxins (which to me, given that orellanin poisoning cases are typically more severe the faster the symptoms rear their ugly head, meaning the dose was larger, suggests that the leucine derivatives present are possibly more toxic than orellanin)

Typical onset for either, is 6-8 hours, which is fucking quick for a kidney damaging mycotoxin.

Sure you chuck the mushroom (hell if I so much as THOUGHT I had a death cap or one of its ilk in there among with a harvest I would toss the entire bag, after giving some thought to ID, if in doubt, it gets tossed and burnt, I don't want that kind of mushroom growing from spores left over in my compost heap once it gets used)

But, on the flip side, you get to pin down a definately highly dangerous species, and make damn sure you know it inside and out, next time you bump into the same lil' white hellspawn, you know what it is, and you leave it to do whatever a viciously toxic mushroom likes doing with its spare time, sucking oak tree piss perhaps

Offhand, do you know if its true the meixner test can give a false positive with psilocybin? I heard it said once that it may, although I have never put a known psilocybin-containing species up against a control and a known amatoxic species, its hard to find both at the same time, unless those blasted Galerinas pop up in my cyan patch again this year, and sure as buggery I'm not slow-baking G.Autumnalis in my kitchen oven on the same grill tray thats used for my morning bacon sandwich

There is academic thirst for knowledge, and there is lunacy, I only occasionally dip my toes in the latter ( titter ye not, I hear the muffled laughter from you in the back over there)

 

[IGNVS]

how do you potentate these bad boys?

 

[jackie jones]

they go well with morphine, but what doesn't?

 

[swilow]

Question re: smoking amanita muscaria. Whats a good dose (by weight), and how long do the effects last for? For those with experience, please try and list mild, medium and strong effects/doses.

Peace

 

[BiG StroOnZ]

Question re: smoking amanita muscaria. Whats a good dose (by weight), and how long do the effects last for? For those with experience, please try and list mild, medium and strong effects/doses.

Peace

swilow I used to smoke A. Muscaria every day. Mostly in a bubbler and a bong, but occasionally I would roll blunts with it, not on its own, obviously with Cannabis

As far as dose goes, by weight, I wouldn't exactly be able to tell you a specific dosage. I never really got too technical about it, because the effects you experience aren't overwhelming in any sense. I would usually just fill up the bowl all the way to the brim (leaving some breathing room of course, but you catch my drift), using mostly the ground up matter (bits and flake), and kept ripping it until there was nothing but ash left (just like smoking most plant substances). Maybe three or four bowl packs total. I can't really tell you precisely how much that was in grams, but definitely at least 3-4g in one session. Again, this depends on the size of your bowl piece.

The effects seem to last about 1-2 hours. They do not increase nor decrease, regardless of how much more you try to smoke; Smoking more does prolong the effects, but doesn't increase the intensity.

The effects from smoking seem to be limited to the following; mild anxiolytic properties (the feeling of being at ease), general sense of well-being, mental clarity.

I used to enjoy packing a 50/50 bowl of some nice dank Cannabis and the A. Muscaria, the A. Muscaria being on the bottom. Gave a real nice glow to the Cannabis high, accompanied by a calming/soothing effect. Also, made the Cannabis high more euphoric. Altogether, it added a different perspective or missing layer, per say, to the Cannabis high when smoked; making it more thorough (as if there was something missing with smoking Cannabis on it's own, but you didn't quite notice it until you combined it with A. Muscaria).

Hope this helps

 

[swilow]

^Sweet, well I just "found" some dried a. muscaria so will have a go- probably just a lil amount first; on a benzo taper, so wondering if it will intefere as such; only one way to find out.

I'll probably not mix it with cannabis; too anxiogenic for me atm, but is it hard to smoke? Does it require some dried herbal matter to burn? The mushrooms I have are utterly dry as a desert....

Thanks for your prompt reply matey