Dissociatives The Big & Dandy Amanita Mushrooms Thread

[swilow]

^Whatever. I'm not insulting you, I am folliwng the board guidleines. Its a harm reduction board.

Oh, and quit acting like your being persecuted by me- thats just childish. We both know thaty my role here is to moderate, so that I do. I'm not at all angry and I haven't been insulting or adverserial; I just happen to understand more clearly then you the consequences of what is written here, and as I was aksed to help this forum achieve its aim- that I will do. If you don't talk shit about datura, then you would find I wouln't actually be saying anything besides Howdy to ya. Clearly- combining Amanita Muscaria with a datura plant is utterly unsafe, impossible to reduce the harm related to it, and therefore I will always say the same things to you regarding this matter.

Either deal with it, get over it or move along.

 

[Aldousage]

Awesome!

Now, back to discussing Amanita Muscaria!!! (although it's not technically a psychedelic drug )

Howdy,
Aldousage

 

[swilow]

^Well, theres nothing to say that GABA can't mediate hallucinations/psychedelia in some parts of the brain....thinking of zolpidem in particular.

 

[Aldousage]

Well. Truth be told, using the word "technically" in reference to psychedelic drugs was fairly lame of me. I've read and heard the word defined with many differing parameters. It's very subjective.

That said, I think that calling datura a psychedelic drug would be too big a stretch for any but the most confused to make. But amanita muscaria is considered a psychedelic drug by lots of people. In fact, some consider it the iconic psychedelic drug. It's certainly used that way by many artists.

Either way, amanita muscaria doesn't scare me the way datura does. I've used and enjoyed A.M. several times (but I'm NOT saying that anyone else ought to).

Peacelove,
Aldousage

 

[swilow]

^I've taken amanita muscaria 4 times thus far....very tentatively (perhaps too much so); twice I have gotten noticeable effects....If they are utterly dry and crumbly-ish, are they not basically safe?

 

[PsyGhost]

Actually I've heard reports of datura and amanita muscaria synergize well together if you know how to properly dose. The idea behind this is that amanita muscaria can cause an increase in saliva production which helps with the dry mouth side effects of datura.

 

[Xorkoth]

It's a fine line discussing datura except in a warning sort of context... I remember last time we allowed a datura thread discussing the experience to run, we had a big influx of kids posting about trying it and subsequently we had an influx of Erowid datura reports. Scary stuff. Bluelight is so public... lots of people get advice about drugs from here and all some kid desperate to get fucked up needs to see is a single post that could remotely suggest to them that that plant that grows all over that they can get for free can do the job, and never mind all the warnings, this one persaon said it was cool so I'm doing it!

*Disclaimer: Datura is extremely dangerous... ever read through a bunch fo reports? Most of them seem to end in hospitalization and/or trouble with the law and/or physical harm.

 

[swilow]

Actually I've heard reports of datura and amanita muscaria synergize well together if you know how to properly dose. The idea behind this is that amanita muscaria can cause an increase in saliva production which helps with the dry mouth side effects of datura.

Well, muscarine is (stragnely enough) muscarinic; it binds to muscarine receptors (a type of acetyl-choline receptor). The effects of cholingergic 'toxicity' are sweating, mass salivation; basicaly an overworking autonomic nervous system. To actually negate the effects of muscarine in the body, atropine is indicated. Most troops allegedly crry atropine injections becauause nerve gas and agents are cholinesterase inhibitors ie. acetyl-choline is not metabolised gy the body and causes prolonged "stimulation" and death. Gnerally amanita muscaria does not cause death, but the muscarinic effects can be very apparent, almost like having very extreme hay fever and accompaying histaminergic-response. The problem in trying to to dose correctly, is that its virtually impossible; the actives of both the plant/fungii;s we are discussing appear in rather differing amounts from plant to plant/mushroom to mushroom.

The idea of amanita muscaria and datura is actually not quite the historical withces ointment, though it contains the same ESSENTIAL ingredients or chemicals to intereact with each other. Allegedly, witches would use monkshood (aconite) to negate the overly toxic effect of solonaceous, psychoative plants....One can die simply from touching the leaves of monkshood....So lets no-one do that please...

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

there is also the speculation that american amanita muscaria contain more muscarine than european ones.I didn't have any muscarinic effects in my experiments with european mushrooms, while i hear that is quite common when ingesting american ones.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Willow, that might be from aconites action on the heart, aconitine and its congeners are potent sodium channel blockers, and are very good at causing cardiac arrythmias.

Not a GOOD idea, but if it worked for them...then again, some people will/did use almost anything to get off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconitine this stuff gets filed under 'heavy-duty nasty shit to avoid'

Odd the wiki stating it blocks ttx-s sodium channels, I was under the impression that ttx-insensitive channels were expressed in the heart , hence tetrodotoxin paralysing the voluntary movements, but leaving heartbeat unnaffected.

 

[swilow]

^Still, the antidote to the aconite poisoning is atropine, and the effects of aconite are strikingly similar to muscarinic poisoning. I am actually confused here.

 

[Entropymancer]

Well, this thread was quite an interesting read. I have personally been quite interested in fly agaric lately, and I have experimented with it very occasioanlly in high doses, and very frequently in low doses. In the next few days, I'll be posting some various informative writings which are the result of the research I've done, as well as my experiences with the mushroom.

BUT, there are a tremendous number of misconceptions and bits of misinformation present in this thread which have not been adressed as such. I'll probably only have time this evening to write this post trying to correct these various misconception and bits of misinformation.

Some of this misinformation even comes from moderators, especially Swilow (sorry to single you out, but as I was taking notes of the misinformation presented in this thread your name came up very often).

I'll paraphrase the quotes here when correcting misinformation as it would take far too long to quote the precise wording used in each bit of misinformation.

There is no other mushroom you could mistake for Amanita muscaria

This one is dangerous! There are indeed lookalikes that could be easily mistaken for Amanita muscaria, particularly in the eastern parts of North America. To make matters worse, these lookalikes grow in the same conditions as A. muscaria and can be found growing right alongside them.

On every specimen that is picked you should look of course for the characteristic cap color, warts, and pendant annulus (skirtlike ring on the stme of the mushroom). But the most important and reliable identifying feature is the presence of fuzzy concentric rings just above the bulbous base of the mushroom. If these are not present, DO NOT EAT IT. While I'm not aware of any lookalikes containing deadly amatoxins, it's not a risk worth taking. Be 100% sure of your ID (I'll post a guide to identifying North American fly agarics that I've written when I have time)

You have to drink your own urine to experience the full effects

Absolutely untrue. Your urine will be less potent than the mushroom you ate. The point of urine-drinking is redosing without consuming more mushroom. You will get more bang for your buck redosing with more mushroom than by drinking your own urine.

Ibotenic acid is the chemical in the mushroom reposnible for nausea

Not true at all. Mushrooms which have been properly dried to decarboxylate all ibotenic acid to muscimol still cuase plenty of nausea. A neutral analysis of all the anecdotal evidence suggests that the nausea is simply an effect of high doses of muscimol, and a few individuals happen to be resistent to this nausea in general.

Muscimol is excreted in the urine

It's not, at least not in any significant quantity. Ibotenic acid is excreted in the urine in a large quantity. A small portion of it is decarboxylated to muscimol following consumption, but the rest is excreted unchaged in the urine. This is the reason for the psychoactivity of the urine. When consumed, a small portion of ibotenic acid decarboxylates to muscimol and produces the characteristic psychoactivity

The effects of eating it fresh are most likely death

Not true at all. The effects of eating it fresh are the same as eating it dried, just less potent due to the fact that the ibotenic acid hasn't been decarboxylated to muscimol prior to consumption.

Of course there is the potential danger of neurotoxicity from consuming ibotenic acid (I'll talk more about this in later posts), but death is not at all a reasonable possibility.

aren't your muscarine receptors basically like acetylcholine receptors, and a. muscaria actives agonise these? Thus causing a delerious, anticholinergic like effect?

This isn't how it works at all. Muscarine is an acetylcholine receptor agonist. It activates the receptors. Anticholinergics are acetylcholine receptor antagonists, preventing the receptors from being activated. The effects are completely opposite.

I believe the poster is confusing agonists with competetive (or more likely irreversible) inhibitors.

Muscimol binds to muscarine receptors and inhibits their activation

This is twofold misinformation. Muscimol is a GABA-A agonist. It has no effect whatsoever on the muscarine receptors.

Also, muscarine binds to muscarine receptors and activates them, as mentioned above. Its effects are the opposite of an inhibitor.

I wish amanitas weren't so damned sedating

That's like wishing alcohol didn't get you so damned drunk, or weed didn't get you so damned high, or psychedelics weren't so damned trippy, and amphetamines weren't so damned stimulating.

A drug is what it is. GABA-A agonists are sedative. QED.

Atropine is the antidote to muscaria poisoning/intoxication

Very much not true. A small dose of atropine would likely counter the perspiration and salivation caused by A. muscaria, but this is only a minor side effect. It will either have no effect on the intoxication (not the best word, BTW, I'd call it inebriation), or more likely it would intensify the inebriation.

Boiling the mushroom would destroy the active compound(s)

While I've seen multiple recipes that claim this, I haven't seen any evidence to indicate it's true. Ibotenic acid and muscimol are quite thermostable (melting at almost 200 degrees celsius) and should be able to tolerate boiling just fine.

Muscazone plays a role in the psychoactive activity

It's possible this is true, but I've seen absolutely no evidence to back it up. The psychoactivity of muscazone is dubious. Furthermore, it's not even established whether muscazone actually occurs in the mushroom. While it has been isolated from european and north american specimens, muscazone is a rearrangement product easily generated from ibotenic acid. It's not clear whether the compound exists in the mushroom, or was just generated as the result of the extraction procedure.

Amanita is a psychedelic

No, it's not. It's an inebriant with the capacity to produce visionary experiences. It's no more psychedelic than alcohol, xanax, or ambien (if you consider any of these to be psychedelic, you have a very different definition than I).

Amanita can be deadly

Yes, technically it could be. In practice, it's not. There hasn't been a single death attributed to A. muscaria overdose in the last 100 years. There was one case where an individual froze to death while in the semi-comatose dream-state it induces while out in the freezing cold, but that's clearly not an overdose death, just natural selection in action.

There was an individual who ate 100 mushrooms in a sitting (they're quite delicious when prepared fresh) and had quite a bad overdose experience, but he did not die (although medical attention was administered at a hospital... under no circumstances should anyone attempt to eat more than 10 caps).




I'll expand more upon this delightful mushroom in the coming days, I just couldn't sleep tonight until I'd adressed that wealth of misinformation.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

In A.Muscaria, the ring very often degenerates with age, the only specimens (UK) I see with rings, are either just expanded caps, or occasionally fully expanded specimens that have stayed in really good nick, the ring seems to degenerate quite quickly.

The ring-less amanita species also are generally not toxic, the grisette family, and A.Crocea (the latter is bright orange, but its orange all the way through, gills, cap, stem, whilst A.Muscaria is only colored throughout the cap, A.Crocea is also nontoxic)

Swilow, aconite affects the heart, causing arrythmia, muscarinic agonists slow the heartbeat (atropine will speed it up, but causes an initial bradycardia, dose dependent)

There is no direct cure for aconite poisoning, treatment is symptomatic, and really, I wouldn't mix it with anything. actually, I wouldn't even remove a plant from a garden without disposable, fairly thick rubber gloves, it really is that bad.

Entropymancer. since you seem quite knowledgeable about amanitas, what kind of dose ranges are used to best success, I've read the erowid reports, and I;ve read some other reports in other places that seem to suggest a lot of the negative effects were from not taking ENOUGH, letting the cholinergic effects predominate.

I have quite a lot of it, cured and dried here, 'twas an excellent season here just recently for them, never seen so many, there are even still, a few late ones to be seen here and there, and its almost december, quite unusual really.

The one thing thats been stopping me experimenting, is lack of information to start with.

Are direct GABAa agonists at the GABA binding site any good for anxiety? on one hand I think they might be, but since muscimol displaces GABA itself, on the other hand, I'm thinking they might be anxiogenic.

I'd like to try small doses, say 2.5g-5g dry in combination with a low dose of an anticholinergic, cyclizine is what I have to hand, and I've tried using a mouth-wash of 10 datura seeds, or a very few belladonna seeds, rinsed and spat out, to counteract salivation, I don't, of course, reccomend any use of either plant, but using over-conservative doses, and very gradually building up, and being careful not to actually swallow any, I have found it works to a degree.

Bottom line question? any good for anxiety? I'm plagued with it.

 

[Entropymancer]

I think that at light doses they have great potential as an effective anti-anxiety substance.

I'm not prone to excessive anxiety, but the low-dose effects do have some characteristic reminiscent of benzos. When I take it in low doses, it gives me a mild but pleasant boost of energy, lifts my mood and eases my mind. In someone with severe anxiety, it's quite possible that the easing of one's mind would be more pronounced. It also warms me up a bit, which is nice in the chill of winter.

Most people who take a weak dose expecting visionary effects don't notice anything, because they're anticipating substantial inebriation, but that only sets in at higher doses. I find these mild low-dose effects to be quite pleasant, and have been cooking low doses into most of my meals for a few weeks (fresh cooked fly agarics are absolutely delicious).

I'd guess that in dried mushrooms, my dose equates to 1-3 grams, but that's just a guess. The source that I first ran across recommending this low-dose regimen talks about using 1-2 tablespoons of mushroom. It's hard to tell whether they mean a fresh tablespoon, or a cooked or dried tablespoon. My guess it that they mean cooked or dried volume. My typical dose ends up being a bit over a tablespoon after sauteeing (that's somewhere between 1/3 and 1/8th of the cap, depending on the size, I don't use the stems).

Also, I always add in a bit of sliced garlic after the mushrooms are about halfway cooked (if you add it too early, then the garlic burns before the mushroom is done). This is done partly for flavor (a little garlic really brings out the flavor of the fly agaric), but it's partly a practical safety measure, just in case ibotenic acid is capable of reaching the brain in neurotoxic concentrations, and IF the ibotenic acid isn't fully decarboxylated by the sauteeing. Garlic contains S-allyl-l-cysteine which protects against the neurotoxic properties of ibotenic acid. It's probably an unecessary precaution, but it seems like an easy thing to do to play it safe.

 

[Entropymancer]

Here's the source that I first came across recommending low-doses of fly agaric. I'm not sure of the original source, but I came across it being quoted by warriorsoul of the shroomery.

As usually used by people in this country, large quantities of the rather nauseating dry mushrooms are imbibed, the person gets sick for a while, then has a rather fearful and scary trip. Thus, the rather grim reputation of muscaria gets perpetuated. People who gather it from the wild and eat it by mistake usually get hysterical when they feel the onset of nausea and psychic effects and have a royal freak-out (it starts with, "I've eaten a poisonous mushroom! I'm going to die!!!"). This also perpetuates the dark repute of what is probably Mother Nature's finest winter tonic and a wonderfully benign life-enhancer WHEN PROPERLY USED! Why do I seem to be the only modern person who has ever thought of using this stuff in a safe and sane manner? People are less original than they think, and ancient tribal taboos are more potent than supposedly sophisticated modern academics realise...

I have used Amanita muscaria continuously for several months at a time, and I think it is a real health-enhancer when correctly used. The key factor is dosage.

Basically, use no more than 1 to 2 tablespoons at a time, and no more than about half a cup in a day. If muscaria agrees with you, you can use it every day if you like throughout the cooler months of the year. I think it is too warming for the hot days of summer, but fine the rest of the year, and it can really help you to stand up to winter cold.

The first problem is supply. There are sources for the dried mushroom and "extracts", but they are rather questionable and extremely expensive and I don't recommend them at all. You should gather this mushroom from the wild when it is in season. You can ask your local mushrooming club (unlike, say---morels, they won't be secretive about sources of A. muscaria unless they think they are protecting you from suicide), or consult books or a specialist in the regional mycology at your local university, but be prepared to do some research. It is found throughout the country in forested areas, and while the season is short, the mushroom often fruits in great abundance, and you can easily gather a year's supply. In some areas there are two seasons, one in summer and the other in the fall. If you have a choice, gather the summer mushrooms as there is evidence that they are more potent and have less physical side effects.

Fortunately, there is nothing really dangerous that looks like this most distinctive of all mushrooms, but in most of the Eastern U.S., Fly Mushroom is golden rather than red in color,(this kind is called Amanita muscaria formosa) and you need to be more careful. Trust me, it is well worth the trouble to research this mushroom to be able to gather it safely! Don't be too open about what you are up to, as people are very apt to freak out if you tell them. A. muscaria is not in any way a controlled substance however.

Beware of what you read from the "authorities" on the effects of this mushroom. An absolutely INCREDIBLE amount of misinformation has been printed about Amanita muscaria, and I probably know as much about its medicinal effects as anyone in the country.

Once you have your mushrooms, you need to think about preservation. The traditional way to do this is the one you should avoid, namely drying. It gives the mushrooms a bitter, metallic taste and makes them rather nauseating. You can keep them in the fridge a few days wrapped in paper towels provided you cut off the usually maggot-containing stalk. You can mince the shrooms with garlic and pickle in vinegar and salt, preserved in the fridge (a spoonful or so is great in a salad dressing). To keep longer, dip the mushrooms in brandy (or rum, or whatever spirit you like...) and freeze them. You must include a preservative when freezing or the mushrooms will spoil even while frozen. You can also sauté the mushrooms in olive oil or butter and freeze cooked, if you want to avoid alcohol.

These mushrooms have an absolutely delicious taste when properly prepared, and are one of the outstanding gourmet fungi of the world. The intensity of the flavor seems to have some correlation with the potency, so you can get an idea of the quality of the raw mushrooms by tasting a little bit. If the mushroom is strong, the meaty flavor will fill your whole mouth. Amanita muscaria seems to especially favour rich French sauces and hearty Italian ones. It can really enhance the flavor of meat dishes, even in amounts as small as a teaspoon or two, and I have used it in this way as a flavor enhancer. It is far finer than MSG. For some reason, it does not seem to go well with chile or Mexican dishes. It is also excellent in omelets and scrambled eggs. One of my favourite ways to prepare it is to sauté it with minced shallots in butter, then add a little sour cream and salt and pepper. Served over a slice of toasted French bread, it is simply wonderful! It is also superb in pastas.

Please remember not to be beguiled by the wonderful flavor and overindulge. There is a record of a man eating a hundred mushrooms at a meal and soon after going into a coma. They were able to save his life, though I honestly don't know how after such an insane overdose. Keep everybody's total intake to no more than 1 to 2 tablespoons per person. Eaten at breakfast, amanita will make everybody cheerful and energetic. Consumed in a fine dinner in the evening with a good wine, it will make people happy, talkative, sociable and relaxed. I have never seen its equal as an overall social mood-enhancer, and despite using it on many occasions, I have never had anyone report a negative experience. The only complaint I have received is from people who say they feel nothing, but even these become noticeably more cheerful and talkative.

My mother sometimes puts a little in my stepfather's dinner to keep him awake instead of falling asleep immediately after eating. Keep it away from pets, especially cats who are lethally sensitive to it. I feel it should be kept from children too, especially small ones. We both like to include some in breakfast when we need extra energy for the day.

The basic value of muscaria, besides being a delightful tonic, is in dealing with seasonal and weather related depressive conditions. It really helped me to get through my first real winter in Flagstaff (we had twenty feet of snow and the temperature got down as far as 25 below zero) after a lifetime of living in the desert. I would wake up on a grim, iron-gray morning wanting to spend the day hiding under the blankets, feeling stiff and depressed and chilled to the bone. I would trudge down to the kitchen and have a cup of coffee, then cut off two tablespoons of frozen muscaria from a package in the freezer and sauté it in a little butter. I scrambled it with eggs and cheese, and enjoyed the rich flavor. Within 15 minutes I would feel a surge of energy and cheerfulness. I became toasty warm and invigorated.

The morning would look beautifully pearly-gray, and I anticipated all the things I was going to happily do. I used A. muscaria daily throughout the cold winter months and it wonderfully enhanced my winter-hardiness. It really got me through the acclimatization process. When muscaria works well, it puts a subtle tension in your muscles and makes you want to go out and do something. I am prone to seasonal affective disorder, but muscaria completely counteracts that. It even made Christmas a genuinely happy occasion. For the first time, I experienced the holidays without a hint of depression. If I sound a little bit in love with the stuff, you are correct.

The summers have been too dry recently for muscaria, but I hope we get lucky this year and I can store some up.

During the early fall, before it got cold and when I had large quantities of fresh mushrooms, I experimented with larger doses (but no more than 1 cup total in a day). With 4 tablespoons at a meal, I often had a little nausea, and would either get drowsy or become hyper and speedy. In the latter case, I often became hyperaware, with a distinct feeling of the heebie-jeebies, like you get when you sleep in an old house and can hear every crack and creak. Both this and the nausea would wear off in half an hour. If I continued such doses throughout the day, I felt a pleasant but distinct sense of intoxication and an oddly detached feeling like being wrapped in a soft fuzzy blanket. By nightfall, I would have rather pretty closed-eye visuals of what looked like jewel-encrusted objects. I would go out into the nearby woods to meditate at night. The darkness was deep and velvety and welcoming and house lights were supernally luminous and beautiful. In meditation, I felt wonderfully expanded and immersed in a blissful ocean of quiet yet profound peace and joyfulness.

I have read the 9th Book of the Rig Veda (the one with the Soma Hymns) under the full influence of Amanita muscaria and I am absolutely convinced that it really is the Sacred Soma of Ancient India; it was remarkably easy to identify the sentiments the authors expressed with what I, myself, was feeling. I don't think anything else would have the same effect, certainly not Syrian Rue (completely non-euphoric) or psilocybe (physically gruelling if you attempt extended use). Two things the ancient poets mentioned that I also found true was that Soma gave you deep, restful, healing sleep when you were ill, and it banished fearfulness and gave courage without also banishing your common sense.

The ancient poems clearly describe using Soma for multiple times per day (Vedic Law allowed you to use it three times in one day) and taking it daily for extended periods as a tonic and medicine, just as I had done. Such usage would be SERIOUSLY harmful and counterproductive if you tried doing it with psilocybe mushrooms!

The courage thing matters too. I am somewhat prone to shyness and social phobia, but not with A. muscaria. If I ever try parachuting, I suspect that the only way I would be able to get myself to jump out of the airplane that first time would be to use a little muscaria before-hand. Perhaps it could be useful in dealing with phobias and shyness. The ancient poems certainly suggest that.

I didn't use such high doses again after winter started, but I experimented with abruptly ceasing use temporarily after that period to test for addiction potential. I liked it so much that I was a little concerned about this. It took 3 days to completely come down after extended use of muscaria, but there were no withdrawal effects and no craving. I had the same experience when I ran out of my frozen mushrooms the following spring. I think it is reasonably safe in that regard. The Siberian natives often used muscaria rather abusively in the winter with some signs of physical harmful effects (very similar to those associated with kava kava addiction), but this reflected the horrendous winters they had to endure and the lack of any alternatives. The natives say that the potential harm of muscaria was trivial compared to the harmfulness of the Russian vodka which replaced it. They also used it as a medicine to give restful sleep to the seriously ill and as a stimulating tonic for hard work in the winter. I and a friend have confirmed this winter tonic effect. The potency is increased if you combine it with Oriental Red Ginseng; such a combination can give great endurance and cold-resistance. On the other hand, I did not find muscaria particularly helpful by itself in straight depression; it is primarily meant for seasonal and weather-related depressive conditions and possibly shyness and phobias. A wonderful gift from Sweet Mother Gaia!

In animal experiments, muscaria had the ability to potentiate tranquilizers, sedatives, narcotics and other pharamaceuticals that effect the central nervous system, and should probably not be used with potent examples of these agents (I had no problems with OTC medicines or Tylenol#3 with codeine, however). It can also increase muscle tone (mild overdoses cause noticeable twitching) and should be used cautiously in people with back or orthopedic problems. In small doses, the active ingredients show anticonvulsant and antispasmodic effects, but the opposite is true with large doses, so it should probably not be used by epileptics, especially those requiring medication. It also has very perceptable appetite-suppressing effects (far stronger than amphetamines in animal experiments), which may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the situation. I have used it for weight control. I find that a fairly small amount of amanita-laced food completely satisfies the appetite and makes you more physically active to boot, so it may have potential here...

Anyway, don't take my word for it, explore this wonderful fungus for yourself, just don't overindulge! I have never used it in seriously entheogenic doses, I found it far too spooky and unnerving long before I got to that point, but you can read vivid accounts in various "trip reports" available on the web. Most people who have used it in such large doses tend to become afraid of it and avoid it, so such usage is an entirely different matter than the uses I have described here. I can't help you with that.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

I think from that report, Amanitas might be great in low dose, its getting wintery and cold here, and with my dodgy knee, it really objects to getting cold, some resistance would be wonderful, and its just...fucking depressing in general, I hate the sunlight, but I hate the cold even more, bah I'm fucked either way really

Not so sure I'm going to try it in entheogenic doses, sounds as though they can be somewhat rough, I found the cholinergic effects quite unpleasant even with the belladonna seed mouth wash I made, but it was very diluted, I deliberately underdosed big time, and didn't increase the dose of the belladonna beyond 35-50mg of seed so the effect was probably minimal.

Odd that a GABAa agonist doesn't form a tolerance, most GABAa and GABAb agoists form truly heinous addiction and withdrawal syndroms, although muscimol is an agonist at the GABA binding site itself, rather than the allosteric modulation seen with benzos, barbs, the qualones etc, I wonder, if its because its binding at the same site as the endogenous ligand, and simulating it.

Do endogenous ligands cause receptor downregulation/desensitization at all? it would seem odd if they did to a functional extent naturally, then again I'm not familiar with many endogenous agonists that will pass the BBB if administered from an outside source.

When I tried it, I brewed up a small handful of caps from 1-2.5 inch of so, using heat-cured, cracker dry mushrooms that had been stored in a dessicator over NaOH and KOH, and it caused quite a lot of nasty salivation, until about 10-15 minutes after, taken as tea, then it hit me really suddenly, I got so sleepy, after sitting in bed reading TIHKAL, a few bits was all I could manage, causing a feeling a little similar to when one fades in and out when stoned to the gills, or gouching on opiates, starting short semi waking dreams.

Next thing? I woke up the morning after, having taken the mushroom tea in the early evening previous (which came out a very deep amber-gold color, tasted very meaty, which I tell ya, was bloody peculiar when sweetened with honey, meat and sugar aren't twoflavours I associate at all, and incredibly vivid dreaming more or less all night, I'd love to try taking it besides 10mg or so of melatonin, I think Amanita has a lot of potential as an oneirogen, I've never tried Calea, Entada Rheedii, etc. so I cannot compare, but it was really intense, although the content was fleetingly remembered.

Do you know how it interacts with piracetam? I take piracetam sometimes, and find it has very noticeable effects on the vividness of dreaming, but its hard to get to sleep on it, I've heard that the effects are probably mediated mainly by increasing choline uptake, other indirect muscarinic effects, and positive AMPA allosteric modulation, but question is, does it have any peripheral muscarinic effects? muscarine is a quat and doesn't pass the BBB, but I'm kind of cautious about trying both together, although I think for lucid/vivid dreaming it could be an excellent combination.

Have you tried the two in combination? any known contraindications for trying this carefully? I was thinking maybe 2.5g amanita, and 500mg piracetam at first, and very likely a nontoxic dose of both (not that piracetam can be called toxic) even if significantly potentiated, going slow, I'm in no hurry to find out too quickly, and I have easily enough dried mushroom for many experiments, even the entire winter, got carrier bags full last season

I do however have some wierd muscle spasm (which can be painful) and twitching problem though, I'm not epileptic and it doesn't cause seizues, just unpleasant motor restlessness sometimes, and muscle fasiculation/spasms/myoclonic jerks, I'm seeing a neurologist about it, and currently its completely stopped by either opiates, tizanidine (an A2 agonist), or benzos, and I take lorazepam, dihydrocodeine and tizanidine, the lorazepam just occasionally, as needed, and the problem has become much less frequent when not using meds for it, the neurologist seems to think, and I agree, that its unpleasant, but not dangerous, seeing as its so easily controlled, even by opiates.

I think I will have to be careful with it though, and step up doses slowly until I find one thats right.

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

No, it's not [a psychedelic]. It's an inebriant with the capacity to produce visionary experiences. It's no more psychedelic than alcohol, xanax, or ambien (if you consider any of these to be psychedelic, you have a very different definition than I).

so you only count 5HT2A-agonists as psychedelic? to me, "inebriant with the capacity to produce visionary experiences" is equivalent to psychedelic, and alcohol and xanax don't have this property, and ambien only in a very limited sense.

 

[Propyl Power]

^Good point, ungelesene. Amanita is often classed as a disassociative and that right there is sufficient to instill in me the deepest respect for it... I would not be at all surprised if it exists very close to the apex of the entheogenic pantheon.

Entropymancer and Limpet Chicken, you likely have already seen this website, but if not it's a great resource: www.somashamans.com

 

[IGNVS]

limpet chicken tell us how the piracetam combo goes! i was going to ask that question before i read your post. im thinking this would also be a good aya admixture, throw in some amanitas and some calea z. should be interesting...

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

I think its POTENTIALLY dangerous as an aya admixture, I haven't used it that way, indeed, I have been but dipping my toes in this particular shark-infested water, but muscimol contains an amine group, as does muscarine, with allosteric modulators, of the benzo type, they bind to a secondary site to GABA, and induce a change in the conformation of the GABAa receptor which then has a much higher response to GABA (anyone know if its an affinity or efficacy change, or both? I'm curious), thus the maximum response of the receptor is equal to the maximum response produced by the natural concentration of GABA in the altered conformation state.

Muscimol binds and activates directly, at the GABA binding site, reponse is not limited in the same way, and can produce a far higher response, which if potentiated sufficiently, could prove fatal, muscimol AFAIK is potent enough to displace GABA also, so chances are, an OD, or big time bollocks-up with it, might be enough to do some real damage.

I would be MOST careful, and test it first, without DMT, using solely the MAOI and gradually increasing microdoses of the Amanita (be safe and use a competitive MAOI like the harmala alkaloids or moclobemide, I wouldn't fancy a fuck up full stop, but I would fancy it even less with an irreversible, unforgiving inhibitor like the old hydrazine based MAOIs)

This is assuming of course, that MAO enzymes have any effect on the metabolism of muscimol, and indeed, its worth considering that of muscarine as a possibility, I don't know the metabolic pathways of either, (yet :D), not that, dependent on the strain of Amanita, there is a large quantity of muscarine in there anyway, its only present in traces, but still can be unpleasant, the first time with Amanita was an absolute droolfest.

'throwing some in', no disrespect intended, sounds like a potential disaster.

One thing I would like to try out, is using buscopan, the IBS medication, to limit side effects, its the butylbromide of hyoscine (scopolamine), a quat, like muscarine is, and neither penetrate the BBB, a peripherally selective muscarinic antagonist to combat a peripherally active agonist, which would of course, be unable to get into the brain and cause delirium, also, of course, available in controlled, measured doses, a far cry from playing shits and giggles with the likes of Datura and the rest of the nightshade family.

If you do try it, the MAOI combination I mean, I have some harmala hanging around myself, although only a little left, let me know the results, but be careful, MAOIs as you likely know, are nothing to fuck about with carelessly, and less so in the prescence of one of the most selective and potent GABA direct agonists.

I think I'l leave this one until I'm able to get some of the buscopan preperation, its OTC here, just a question of when I have some money, and of course, enough to spare for some decent herb, as I've read that Amanita has some significant capacity to cause nausea, I didn't get any at all as a tea, but it did give me a case of the craps later on after I woke, nothing too dire, but muscarinic agonists increase intestinal peristalsis, and will quite reliably give one the shits if theres too much floating about in there.