Thomas Davie
Bluelight Crew
If your sample is oxygen free, water free and light blocked it would last forever. There are dual use lids you can buy with O2 and water absorvers built into the lid.
Tom
The Big & Dandy 4-AcO-DMT Thread - Act Four
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If your sample is oxygen free, water free and light blocked it would last forever. There are dual use lids you can buy with O2 and water absorvers built into the lid.
Tom
.:Holy::Toast:.
Bluelighter
My 4-aco-dmt fumurate has lasted almost a year with no noticeable degredation or decrease in effects
lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
Another quick question, erowid in their doses ( https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/4_acetoxy_dmt/4_acetoxy_dmt_dose.shtml ) doesn't mention the differences in potency between the fumarate/Freebase. Neither do most of the posts when I click on the dose section on the first page of this thread. I would assume most are fumarate as the freebase seems uncommon.
I would guess the freebase is more potent by weight, but.... anyone know for sure?
I just don't want to think I'm taking a 23-25mg normal dose and it actually be more comparable to 35-40+mg.
Also, since the freebase is unlikely to be soluble in water, anyone have experience dissolving freebase? How about in .05-.1 ml distilled white vinegar? Then adding water? I might just test this myself with 1-4mg quantities just as an experiment with solubility. I don't plan on tripping too soon - I have to buy another mg scale before I even consider it.
I would guess the freebase is more potent by weight, but.... anyone know for sure?
I just don't want to think I'm taking a 23-25mg normal dose and it actually be more comparable to 35-40+mg.
Also, since the freebase is unlikely to be soluble in water, anyone have experience dissolving freebase? How about in .05-.1 ml distilled white vinegar? Then adding water? I might just test this myself with 1-4mg quantities just as an experiment with solubility. I don't plan on tripping too soon - I have to buy another mg scale before I even consider it.
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Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
It might dissolve in vinegar, actually it would probably form the acetate salt and then dissolve. It will definitely dissolve in alcohol and remain as a freebase.
lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
Yeah, that's what I figured I'd end up with, the acetate salt. I still need to know the relative potency between the two major ones - what's a normal dose of Fumarate Vs. Freebase by weight?
I'd rather go the first route with the vinegar, I'll try it on a few mg and see what's up. Much preferable, and have experience with freebases dissolving in small amounts of vinegar/acetic-acid and then being perfectly miscible with water (becoming the acetate).
Actually in situ deacetylation always interested me, I guess that would happen if you put 4-AcO-DMT in an alkaline liquid, although I'm not sure how that would be safe to drink - and if neutralizing that high pH a bit would be enough.
But should produce 4-HO-DMT which is very nice and can have very acute potent effects. It is an endless debate whether all of this ester vs indolol stuff truly matters but seems cool to try just for kicks.
But should produce 4-HO-DMT which is very nice and can have very acute potent effects. It is an endless debate whether all of this ester vs indolol stuff truly matters but seems cool to try just for kicks.
lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
4-HO-DMT is actual psilocin, correct?
I mean, if I wanted that there are easier ways then changing a single functional group! (but it would be in fu
ngi lol)
\
I mean, if I wanted that there are easier ways then changing a single functional group! (but it would be in fu
ngi lol)
\Yes 4-HO-DMT is psilocin.. I am not sure at all about the whole 4-HO vs 4-xO ester tryptamines like I said, but I have my own reserved feelings / ideas about it. Like a suspicion that it may be too easy to dismiss every difference as just random subjective differences in experience.
One of the things I feel strongest about is that whatever is in fungi makes it relatively different compared to say synthetic psilocin which I also tried. Mushrooms tend to be pretty characteristic, serious and strongly lesson teaching for me. Also what plays a role is that pure substances tend to feel noticeably different to me than complex biological mixtures of compounds, some of which may modulate the effects of others. My experiences with various cannabinoid products seems to confirm this, as does raw opium vs morphine etc. Of course with opium it is much more confirmed that there are other active compounds in there besides morphine.
I personally think that there may be differences in pharmacokinetics and secondary alkaloids in say mushrooms that competitively occupy some MAO enzymes (inhibiting metabolism of primary alkaloids), and/or there may be modulation of the effects the main alkaloid(s) have on serotonin receptors and other receptors. These differences may turn out to seem major or really minor when we try to measure them and paint a sophisticated picture of all the factors involved. But I guess even small differences can lead to large subjective differences, because the nature of psychedelia involves amplification and enhancement of experience, including suggestibility. Not to mention psychological effects from the ideas we have about say mushrooms vs pure tryptamines. We could call it placebo but it may partially factor in.
So... that's my theory. Take it or leave it.
One of the things I feel strongest about is that whatever is in fungi makes it relatively different compared to say synthetic psilocin which I also tried. Mushrooms tend to be pretty characteristic, serious and strongly lesson teaching for me. Also what plays a role is that pure substances tend to feel noticeably different to me than complex biological mixtures of compounds, some of which may modulate the effects of others. My experiences with various cannabinoid products seems to confirm this, as does raw opium vs morphine etc. Of course with opium it is much more confirmed that there are other active compounds in there besides morphine.
I personally think that there may be differences in pharmacokinetics and secondary alkaloids in say mushrooms that competitively occupy some MAO enzymes (inhibiting metabolism of primary alkaloids), and/or there may be modulation of the effects the main alkaloid(s) have on serotonin receptors and other receptors. These differences may turn out to seem major or really minor when we try to measure them and paint a sophisticated picture of all the factors involved. But I guess even small differences can lead to large subjective differences, because the nature of psychedelia involves amplification and enhancement of experience, including suggestibility. Not to mention psychological effects from the ideas we have about say mushrooms vs pure tryptamines. We could call it placebo but it may partially factor in.
So... that's my theory. Take it or leave it.
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Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Yeah I completely agree, having tried both pure psilocin and mushrooms, there are definitely and substantial differences, although of course many similarities as well. And 4-AcO-DMT... totally different drug.
lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
I agree... I think. The subjective effects will change unless you synthesize every chemical in the mushrooms that are physiologically active, or the same in poppies (creating a synthetic full spectrum 'drug') it will differ.
The difference between poppy tea and morphine is PROFOUND!
Morphine is kinda euphoric, and lasts like 4-6 hours. Poppy tea (consumed orally, or a water extraction which is then distilled under vacuum) is many levels more euphoric and pleasant then morphine and codeine alone. And it lasts like 3-4 times longer.
Are you saying that if you took synthetic 4-HO-DMT, and obtained 4-HO-DMT chromatographically separated from the mushroom, the effects, subjectively would be different?
This is crazy (bolded text mainly):
Whole Q&A:
The difference between poppy tea and morphine is PROFOUND!
Morphine is kinda euphoric, and lasts like 4-6 hours. Poppy tea (consumed orally, or a water extraction which is then distilled under vacuum) is many levels more euphoric and pleasant then morphine and codeine alone. And it lasts like 3-4 times longer.
Are you saying that if you took synthetic 4-HO-DMT, and obtained 4-HO-DMT chromatographically separated from the mushroom, the effects, subjectively would be different?
This is crazy (bolded text mainly):
Whole Q&A:
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
We've had threads about that before. I think someone tried to create 4-HO-DiPT mushrooms by introducing DiPT. I don't remember if the experiment actually happened or not.
I think that if you isolated 4-HO-DMT from mushrooms the effects would be equivalent to synthetic/pure 4-HO-DMT, but the other alkaloids in the mushrooms (psilosybin/4-PO-DMT, and also I believe 4-HO-NMT and others) combine with the psilocin to create something different. Same as mescaline cacti, same as the poppy. Same as most any psychoactive plant really.
And yeah, poppy tea is greatly different from morphine and far superior.
I think that if you isolated 4-HO-DMT from mushrooms the effects would be equivalent to synthetic/pure 4-HO-DMT, but the other alkaloids in the mushrooms (psilosybin/4-PO-DMT, and also I believe 4-HO-NMT and others) combine with the psilocin to create something different. Same as mescaline cacti, same as the poppy. Same as most any psychoactive plant really.
And yeah, poppy tea is greatly different from morphine and far superior.
No, if you really separate and purify a compound it is that pure chemical. And it would be universally identical to otherwise (synthetically) made psilocin. Anything else IMO is superstition and very unscientific, just like water has no memory of where it has been or what vibes / emotions it was exposed to. The emotions are in the beholder's mind. But we like to project ourselves onto the world and at the same time become oblivious to it. You can't take subjectivity out of the equation, even in quantum mechanics. Although that is of course a different story.
The 4-HO vs 4-AcO debate is also not exactly the same as the 4-HO trypt vs mushrooms debate. And those debates are in some ways different still than cacti / poppies. There are similarities as pointed out, but which plants contain which relevant participating chemicals is always a hugely complex question. And results found for one psychoactive plant or fungus may not prove anything about another.
Still, they (psychoactive plants and fungi) tend to contain more than one compound that in some way interact with the whole effection... and there is IME a recognition or a similarity when a rich palet or mix of psychoactives are involved or only one pure chemical. It's like taking an instant drug combo IMO (well not IMO, I guess that's a fact right?).
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lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
Nah man open your mind, just because homeopathy sounds like crazy, looney, charlatan garbage that's no reason to reject it! The idea of using ULTRA LOW doses of methamphetamine to help insomniacs makes perfect sense.
So we're talking about full spectrum preparations Vs. the lone active chemical? We're on the same page then. If you've vaped weed, and then the next day dosed marinol from a completely sober state, the marinol is not recreational IMO. Nothing alike.
Also if you mean difference in subjective experience due to psychological makeup, I'd agree there too.
You'd need to determine all psychoactive/physiologically active chemicals from each plant/fungi, and then try them in EVERY combination. Then you might begin to understand the pharmacology and chemical interactions that lead to the effect from a single plant, I suppose.
Ultra low dosages of a drug are a fundamentally different concept than comparing purified drugs, if strictly speaking we are saying they are truly pure. Unless you were talking about mushroom alkaloids badly purified over a chromatography column... in which case the purification is not that meaningful, strictly speaking. You can say that in practice it is quite hard to eliminate every and all impurities from a sample of mushroom extracted alkaloids, but let's not confuse abstract theory with practice. If impurities left behind have effect that is kind of like a loophole in the theory and it should be acknowledged explicitly and not be observed and taken as something that came out of the blue.
Some drugs can have paradoxical effects, modafinil for example makes some people fall asleep - and occasionally that can happen to people who otherwise react normally to it. But modafinil definitely doesn't act in typical ways we know from other drugs.
I guess that some drugs can have atypical effects when microdosed, then again some homeopathy is just non-sensical for example diluting a drug so much that not even a molecule is left behind. Then we are back to superstition I'm afraid, or otherwise said anti-scientific / supernatural notions about why that would be a good idea. Other things like phytotherapy are often also called part of homeopathy, incorrectly afaik. Using herbs can of course be pretty effective although it depends on the exact herb and application, there are so many!
Placebo effects can be very strong, and that too can of course be effective so I'm not trying to take that away from people who benefit from it. But I've never heard that there are scientific trials that confirm such dilution-homeopathy practices to show significant promise.
Some drugs can have paradoxical effects, modafinil for example makes some people fall asleep - and occasionally that can happen to people who otherwise react normally to it. But modafinil definitely doesn't act in typical ways we know from other drugs.
I guess that some drugs can have atypical effects when microdosed, then again some homeopathy is just non-sensical for example diluting a drug so much that not even a molecule is left behind. Then we are back to superstition I'm afraid, or otherwise said anti-scientific / supernatural notions about why that would be a good idea. Other things like phytotherapy are often also called part of homeopathy, incorrectly afaik. Using herbs can of course be pretty effective although it depends on the exact herb and application, there are so many!
Placebo effects can be very strong, and that too can of course be effective so I'm not trying to take that away from people who benefit from it. But I've never heard that there are scientific trials that confirm such dilution-homeopathy practices to show significant promise.
lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
You got that I was joking about homeopathy, right? lol
I've read the same stuff about how it's fundamentally impossible.
Meta-analysis of homeopathic trials produced null results. Any positive findings were shown to use badly designed experiments, or correct procedures not followed for the experiment, or they were carried out by the industry itself and ignored other data and possibly also contained either of the two previous circumstances.
Anyway,
Can anyone tell me the difference in weight between the freebase of this drug Vs. the fumarate salt?
I've read the same stuff about how it's fundamentally impossible.
Meta-analysis of homeopathic trials produced null results. Any positive findings were shown to use badly designed experiments, or correct procedures not followed for the experiment, or they were carried out by the industry itself and ignored other data and possibly also contained either of the two previous circumstances.
Anyway,
Can anyone tell me the difference in weight between the freebase of this drug Vs. the fumarate salt?
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lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
While you may love this chemical and take large amounts of it, one must still be aware that even 15mg of 4-aco-dmt can produce a full-on psychedelic experience that is quite profound. I would not start any higher than 15mg if you are not experienced...doses above 30mg may prove extremely powerful for many people.
Hiroki
Bluelighter
Does anyone have experience using this at low dosages? I'm wondering about using it several times a week in a cognitive enhancement experiement alongside mxe. My main concerns are taking too much over time and straying too far from reality, and secondly this chemical having little to no value in low doses. I want to find the "perfect" dose that is above threshold, and in the realm of light effects. Not just subtle hints of effects, but definite effects with the least possible visual activity (I'm a hard head and it takes me quite a bit to get anything more than color enhancements/shifting and a little pattern activity) yet still allowing the mental effects to bloom. This will take much tweaking but I really do hope 4-ACO-DMT will prove worthy in this experiement. 
I have done this with mushrooms in the past. Usually around a gram would put me where I wanted to be, combined with various sorts of delightful chemicals and herbs to spruce up the experience while minimizing any hallucinations and mind jumbling. I don't really like to trip that hard anymore, I simply don't feel the need or have a yearning to do so. Yet I still would like to gain some benefit from a psychedelic as I feel that somewhere above a threshold dose there is a magical place of creativity, growth, and even recreational value, without crossing the line into trance/hallucinatory/entity contact/spiritual experience/interdimensional exploring territory.
I have done this with mushrooms in the past. Usually around a gram would put me where I wanted to be, combined with various sorts of delightful chemicals and herbs to spruce up the experience while minimizing any hallucinations and mind jumbling. I don't really like to trip that hard anymore, I simply don't feel the need or have a yearning to do so. Yet I still would like to gain some benefit from a psychedelic as I feel that somewhere above a threshold dose there is a magical place of creativity, growth, and even recreational value, without crossing the line into trance/hallucinatory/entity contact/spiritual experience/interdimensional exploring territory.
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lolwhatzdrugs
Bluelighter
^quick tolerance.... you use this to trip, not for low dose "enhancement" IMO.
Hiroki
Bluelighter
Tolerance will build slowly as the doses will be spread out every 2 days and our diet allows for rapid elimination of toxins from the body and neurotransmitters will return to an equilibrium rapidly as well. I understand your point however, so I will start using this for 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. Or maybe even better we will alternate 1 week 4-aco-dmt, 1 week mxe. One can use psychedelics in any number of ways my friend, why limit your scope?
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