Tryptamines The Big & Dandy 4-AcO-DMT Thread - Act Five

[Ballz_Trippington]

Now that I've had a glimpse of your drug use, your previous posts make way more sense.
Honestly, this whole thing is playing out as a warning to not use psychedelics foolishly or YOU (Stoned Ape) are what can happen.
If after years of psychedelic experience you are left being arrogant and self absorbed it's a pretty good indication that you have been doing the drugs wrong for a very long time.

 

[MSK]

Hell, I'm considering dropping 300ug each of ETH-LAD, ALD-52, AL-LAD and 1P-LSD together. What's going to happen? I have no idea. I know this much. I'm not going to die. And even if I do, it's the most beautiful way to go. Absolutely beautiful.

I do know this. I will not die. I will survive that too. Because I am the Stoned Ape. And I don't listen to anyone but myself and my own research. Someone has to do this. Someone has to take up this task and show the world that even super massive doses are harmless. And that this harm reduction has been taken SO FAR that it now actually hinders personal experience. Your rules/regulations are nothing more than an outlet of the dominator culture. Your forum community is nothing more than an extension of culture which is destructive to the individual experience.

It's amazing that so many of you claim to be experts on tripping and have absolutely no real insight. None other than what you've read or have been told.

That insight doesn't come from reading about other people's experiences. It comes from experiencing it yourself. And until you do, you're not going to understand what I'm saying.

"If you are in the company of those who would censor or silence you, you are in the company of crap."

Your (world) community is what you make of it. Let's see what you make of this.

Seriously, can't you read the contradictions on your posts, or that you aren't making any fucking sense?

You take insane ammounts of psychedelics, state that it gives you bad body load, panicking, and delusional thinking (You are going to die, like everyone here, sorry for opening your eyes!)

You just sound like an old crazy hippy with mental problems that had just escaped from the psych ward and is delivering free acid on the door of schools for enlightening the kids. I though that those were urban legends, but I can see that with people that think like you this could be a real scenario... Unreal what I'm reading in this post from you... :S

 

[MocCozmiK]

Also 4-AcO-DMT isn't a mushroom.

See my post above that I was writing as you posted this.

To be clear, I am not saying that 50mg of 4-AcO-DMT is dangerous physically, even with syrian rue. I'm just saying, it's irresponsible to suggest to people to start with 50mg of 4-AcO-DMT their first time, with or without syrian rue. By no means should anyone jump in there. Jump in low or moderate, you can take more the next time if you feel comfortable with it. Personally I love 4-sub-tryptamines at that level, but I'm me, anyone else reading this might not be prepared to handle it. The fact is, sometimes people have long-term negative consequences like PTSD, or HPPD, from psychedelics, particularly from powerful trips. Some aren't ready to experience ego loss and it results in a severely disrupted life. You can read about these experiences all over the place online. 4-AcO-DMT or mushrooms or anything is not guaranteed to be a good thing for someone.

I agree. 50mg of 4-Aco-DMT is not a wise starting dose. I do not think the person will die. I do think a freak out could happen. My first dose of 4-AcO was 15mg (I think) and it wasn't a break through by far (I was looking a break through) I have read many reports where people had breakthroughs on small doses.

Now having much experience with 4-AcO, I have tried high doses and still haven't had that breakthrough I have been looking for.

4-AcO-DMT feels so safe for me, (tried most of the 4subs feel safe to me) I feel so comfortable with it, so maybe that's why I haven't broken thru or whatever. Although I am looking forward to trying a few new things that are not 4-subs Now that it is summer time.

Like most of others have said - always start low and work your way up. I have found orally to be much better than insufflation - IMO

 

[Pontius Pilate]

^ That monkey's fucking high...

Attention, party-goers and distinguished guests, please, do not drink the kool-aid.

That is all.

 

[Pontius Pilate]

Bahahah.. Nah.

For reference, I've been doing hallucinogens since age 14. Now, 9 years later, I've run the gambit with drug classes and dosages. Though I've admittedly slowed my roll lately, my teen years were reckless.

I was also born into occultism, which has influenced my use of hallucinogens significantly. I mean, I haven't "partied" in years.. Mainly I use dissociatives and tryptamines for occult study and ritual.

Also, I'm an elementary school teacher at a prestigious academy. I dropped out of public high school, too. (But I only ever learned bad habits there anyway; I'm an autodidact.)

How's that? Now you know me a bit better. (Despite the fact that I abhor self-declaration online in favor of anonymity. I believe quality information can stand alone, without appeal to authority, though sometimes some background is relevant..) And yet, despite your consistent admonitions, you've still not given us any real information about yourself or your accomplishments. (As if self-exploration should be considered accomplishment anyway; try contributing to society with what you've learned 'Oh Enlightened One'..)


I just don't know what else I can learn from psychedelics.. Short of applying new perspective to whatever I'm dealing with or working on, I can't imagine hallucinogens opening me up to any new insights. I've already conceptualized the abstract and mapped my own self and all that jazz.. And even though I'm still surprised by content occassionally, I've always been of the opinion that drugs are catalysts, not generative.

It's all you to begin with, and if you think the hallucinogens are opening you up to novel lessons inaccessible without the proper dose and drug, then I'm just sorry..



You chide us for being close-minded and dogmatic, yet you insist on blind acceptance of your proposed "truth".

Objectivity and a sound grounding in consensus reality are prerequisite for successfully navigating psychedelia and returning intact to share what you gained.

 

[tokezu]

This

My goal is to convince people stop listening to others and figure it out for themselves.

versus

People, please. PLEASE. Stop taking such low amounts. 10-15-20-30... mg? That's not going to do anything for you. TRUST me.

I don't listen to music. I don't party. I don't dance. I don't look for shapes or patterns. And if that's what you seek, you're doing it wrong. Yes. Wrong. Deal with it.

Oh the irony! :D
I'll let you in on a little secret StonedApe, nobody trusts people who literally say "trust me" (with caps lock no less!).

I think the whole dicksizing theme in your posts has been adressed already, so I won't bother. Oh and McKenna? Yeah he was a great entertainer, great fun to listen to. But beyond that... maybe have a look at that whole timewave zero debacle.

 

[Xorkoth]

You're turning a simple suggestion to start lower and work your way up into a whole lot of nonsense. No one is saying you shouldn't take 50mg, just that it's bad advice to suggest to someone inexperienced to start at 50mg. You can't possibly know how everyone else will react to things, you only know how you will react. I did in fact read all of your posts, and you've been increasingly going off the handle about this. You've claimed that those of us contradicting you are imbeciles, closed minded, part of the dominator culture, attempts at censoring, and that we're trying to force our fears and ideas on others. Those claims are ludicrous, man. You're either trolling or you're blowing this way out of proportion. Can't you see how your own claims are doing exactly that? You said (most recently) "Have some testicular fortitude and take 50mg"... so what you're saying is, unless you start at 50mg, you're a pussy", or whatever words you'd choose to communicate that sentiment. You're trying to force your own idea that the correct way to use psychedelics is to jump in at high doses, and you're doing it in a pretty bullying and judgmental manner.

Well, you're free to make that claim, we haven't removed or edited any of your posts. So why is it censorship when other people respond with their ideas? You got to say what you want to say, and we get to say what we want to say. This is how forums work, everyone gets to say their part, and then people coming here to read it will be free to make their own choice what to believe, after reading everyone's posts.

You're free to post whatever you want, except for abusive posting including name-calling, or discussing sources for drugs, or discussing prices for drugs. Your recent posts have strayed into abusive territory. So please tone it down, there's no reason for you to be insulting the rest of the posters. Someone disagreeing with you is okay. People disagree with me all the time, it's just how it works, you're never going to agree with everyone but it doesn't mean they're personally attacking you.

For the record the abusive posting applies to everyone.

 

[MSK]

You're turning a simple suggestion to start lower and work your way up into a whole lot of nonsense. No one is saying you shouldn't take 50mg, just that it's bad advice to suggest to someone inexperienced to start at 50mg. You can't possibly know how everyone else will react to things, you only know how you will react. I did in fact read all of your posts, and you've been increasingly going off the handle about this. You've claimed that those of us contradicting you are imbeciles, closed minded, part of the dominator culture, attempts at censoring, and that we're trying to force our fears and ideas on others. Those claims are ludicrous, man. You're either trolling or you're blowing this way out of proportion. Can't you see how your own claims are doing exactly that? You said (most recently) "Have some testicular fortitude and take 50mg"... so what you're saying is, unless you start at 50mg, you're a pussy", or whatever words you'd choose to communicate that sentiment. You're trying to force your own idea that the correct way to use psychedelics is to jump in at high doses, and you're doing it in a pretty bullying and judgmental manner.

Well, you're free to make that claim, we haven't removed or edited any of your posts. So why is it censorship when other people respond with their ideas? You got to say what you want to say, and we get to say what we want to say. This is how forums work, everyone gets to say their part, and then people coming here to read it will be free to make their own choice what to believe, after reading everyone's posts.

You're free to post whatever you want, except for abusive posting including name-calling, or discussing sources for drugs, or discussing prices for drugs. Your recent posts have strayed into abusive territory. So please tone it down, there's no reason for you to be insulting the rest of the posters. Someone disagreeing with you is okay. People disagree with me all the time, it's just how it works, you're never going to agree with everyone but it doesn't mean they're personally attacking you.

For the record the abusive posting applies to everyone.

sorry sir, I must admit I was a bit harsh on my lastest posts here, but reading each of StonedApe posts just increased my angry exponientally. My apologizes to StonedApe and the community. I won't keep discussing about this...

 

[Xorkoth]

No worries, let's just keep it civil moving forward.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

I'd also like to apologize because some of my remarks became personal and there's no need for that.
But I do feel that there are real dangers to taking large doses of psychedelics (in particular Lysergamides) without proper time and reflection (sometines also psychotherapy) in between trips.
I've seen many people go too far with acid over periods of time and watched them become manic and delusional in bizarrely fundamentalist way where they think they've found the answer and it becomes this gospel they have to spread to humanity. There is also a Bizzare phenomenon of acid heads evolving into born again Christians which is just truly bizarre but it happens more than you'd expect.
There is also perma tolorance from excessive lysergamide use.
This is a big part of the reason that my recreational dose for most 4 subbed trypts IS 50mg. I don't know if it's from receptor damage or simply from taking large doses and simply learning to be comfortable or at least being able to navigate through that kind of head space.
I don't trip that often these days less than once every two months.
But the tolorance is always there and I'm pretty sure it's from taking large doses (6 strong tabs) on a weekly or at a festival (daily ) basis.

 

[tokezu]

I simply speak my thoughts in a calm, robotic emotionless tone. If that comes off as rude or assholish to you, then that's your ... problem.

To be honest, this is pretty much the opposite of what your posts sound like to me. If you give it a rest for a few days, think about something different a little bit and then come back to this thread and read over your posts again, maybe you will see what I mean. If not please feel free to carry on with it, I'm not offended at all. I just wouldn't expect any fruitful conversations if you keep up this, what I percieve to be, very confrontational tone.

And where did you get the impression that 4-AcO-DMT is no more dangerous than Psilocin? AFAIK this is an educated guess at best, since there have been no actual studies on it. Since we are dealing with rather novel compounds here, there is no telling what kind of longterm effects might show up 20 years later.

 

[tokezu]

Oh that's interesting, thanks. I was under the impression there were still some uncertainties about possible differences in the safety profiles.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

Not massively looking forward to this stuff since I don’t like mushrooms - guessing 30mg is a good start and equivalent to 3 or so grams of semilanceta. I can’t see it should be very different to mushrooms unless the prodrug theory is out or perhaps the combo of baeocystin/norbaeocystin makes mushrooms less pleasant since some clain this compound superior or clean than fungal material

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

Oh man! How come? What do you like instead?

I can't recommend this compound enough. Just try a 50mg dose.

Lots of seasoned trippers don’t like mushrooms for whatever reason - they were good and I got some benefits when younger but other compounds esp LSD are where it’s really at - not inviting a massive derailing of the thread - it’s my opinion and others opinions are valid - I wasn’t even going to try 4AcO-DMT - certainly never taking mushrooms again but it’s there so I’ll at least give it a spin - my psilocybin doses were between 30-60mg sometimes with harmaline but wasn’t thinking of trying so high with this just because eventually it got a bit mixed up and I got a lot of negatives from it. I hope it is nicer cleaner then mushrooms.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

You're welcome! I'm not claiming expertise. There could be something that has escaped my notice. But I am fairly certain of the safety of Acetylated psilocin.

It may yet still be different from the actual natural mushroom experience. Psilocin alone may not be all we require. There are other trace tryptamines in mushrooms as well (baeocystin, norbaeocystin), which may go to balance the effects for something known as the entourage effect, where you gain benefit from the natural balance present in the plant.

http://www.museocivico.rovereto.tn.it/UploadDocs/748_Annali71991_art13_gartz.pdfw

Not sure about “require” - it depends why they are there - natural balance or nature knowing best and the like is a sort of religious-ideological or shamanic belief about the contents of shrooms - not saying it is wrong pe se - it might work well for you but I don’t hold that nature always knows best (the boring synth v natural debate) or we have to hold that tropanes containing drugs are ‘good’ and the bottom line is a lot of people including those who don’t like shrooms have said 4Aco-DMT is worth a go. It could be these N demethylated side products are difficult to avoid the way the biosynthetic route unfolds but that many might prefer pure psilocin. Not arguing you are wrong as such I think this is partly individual chemistry or taste and of course at the moment the role baeocystin and norbaeocystin play be it considered good or bad isn’t really clear - the effect could in fact be negligable in blind studies and some of the difference between 4AcO-DMT and psilocin also might not exist in blind studies due to expectation placebo etc. I would certainly agree of all the compounds about I really doubt 4AcO-DMT is at all unsafe.

 

[Zero Beta]

Ok... wow! Just, wow. 8( So... *pours self drink, looks @ the clock* I don't normally drink in the middle of the day but I need one now... thanks, cool story bro. @ thread now ....Not sure how many pages I had to skip so I didn't get lost in the muck. I hope there was not any REAL info in them I wanted to read. Again, thanks for that, cool story. ....Was reading The Big & Dandy 4-AcO-DMT Thread got all the way into ACT3 (Lovin' it.. FYI) ...So hop to the end thread and find out how it goes. MAYBE some crazy cool good info I need to know!?!? AND!?!?!?!??!?!
Riffed my chill but whatever.... again, thanks for that ...cool story. So... I'm going to go back from where I left off and BUILD FROM THERE. *hint*

~~~ANYWAYS~~~~
I just rediscover (2 days ago) Bluelight after years on a sabbatical form the "scene". Kinda not sure how I got here. *deep thoughts* Deja-vu! All that infos. I Bluelight.

"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye." -Hunter S. Thompson (R.I.P.)

 

[Yeetbeat]

Advising users to try 200% of Erowid's suggested STRONG oral dose of 4-AcO-DMT for their first time is fucking stupid StonedApe. Just because it's all dandy for you, doesn't mean everyone's going to have some sort of retarded tolerance or fiendish desire to become a vegetable for half the day like you'd have them with the dosage you've suggested.

If you aren't here to contribute to the community positively, please ensure your stay on Bluelight is short. Contributing positively includes guiding newbies in the right direction to ensure they have a safe and enjoyable experience; not advising over the top doses that would potentially have them lose their shit and run into some trouble.

Please avoid handing out advice on dosing to those inexperienced with these chemicals until you can do so with their wellbeing in mind.

 

[Yeetbeat]

I was going to unapprove your amusing response, but hey let's just leave it here for now so people can read over and make up their own minds as to whether you have anyone else's health or wellbeing in mind.

I have what's commonly referred to as a 'hard head' tolerance; I seem to require that little bit more than others to achieve a relative intensity. Couple this with the fact I personally prefer more intense trips. Think 5g p.cubensis in public. I'm not so wise.

That being said, I have no tried 4-AcO-DMT myself. If I got hold of some, what I would do is visit Erowid's dosage guide page, assess what a "strong" dose is, and perhaps add another 20% for lulz. This would equate to 30mg orally. Not 50-70mg, which I wouldn't necessarily humour AT ALL depending on how intense my initial 30mg was.


Now to address your backwards claims as to your posts and their 'harm reduction' merit: advising anyone to take a large amount of something they're unfamiliar with, regardless of whether the advised dosage is considered "safe" from a toxicity point of view, is not in line with harm reduction. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to do so, but the line is drawn when you regurgitate this opinion in the form of advice on this website. You're welcome to offer your anecdotal experiences, however you must stop short of advising the user to follow your steps. I have no desire to remove anyone from the forums, so long as they participate maturely and respect our guidelines. If you wish to engage in dosage-dicksizing, feel free to take it to a social thread or somewhere more relevant, but please don't advise new inexperienced users to follow your steps just because it was fine for you.

For example I've had a couple of good experiences on a touch over 2mg of 25i-NBOMe (2 tabs), however I will never recommend anything beyond a single tab of the shit to anyone else, and preferably only after they've trialled half a tab.


I welcome you to consider the above and think about why you've come to participate in Bluelight's community. If you're here to ensure the ongoing safe and positive experiences of users, I invite you to stay and do just that - but please reconsider the way in which you provide advice. Really, if someone took 50mg because you said it would be fine, and they lost their shit and wound up in lockup or the psych ward, do you think you've upheld Bluelight's mission?


Please don't respond in similar inflammatory fashion. I'm trying to help people, and your attitude towards me is not warranted or welcome.

 

[Xorkoth]

I unapproved a variety of posts that were just back and forth bickering. Please let's keep this thread on topic. Further derailing will be met with actual infractioning. We haven't had to do that in PD for quite a while, let's not start now. We have a peaceful and respectful community here, and I am interested in keeping it that way.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

Well I will cut some middle ground - I see where you are coming from - I find the dreaded underdose just that... dreadfed on the whole - more is more (better) to a degree - it’s just that won’t work out well for everyone - people are different and react differently - some hold that the 60s doses were excessive in retrospect - you can’t just sledgehammer others to your own world view even if it is well meaning. Others Shulgin included find lower doses good. Most people I have met who liked mushrooms were more social users - in the old days 15-30 liberty caps was oft quoted by many - about 0.5-1g (1g oft came out around 40 individuals) which isn’t a lot more than pretty pathetic 10mg psilocybin unless they are super potent. My GF loves mushrooms but only requires 2g for consistantly “strong” meaningful experiences. I kept pushing and pushing shrooms stupidly trying to get the wonders I got off acid easily and eventually came out of it badly - there is a lot about psilocybin doesn’t speak to me or sit right and endlessly upping the dose created some real negatives; I came back to them and worked up from small but I would personally favour DMT or LSD if I want to go further. For this reason I’ll give 4Ac0 the benefit of the doubt and jump in at 30 but no more; if it has advantage over psilocybin - ie less yucky bodyload, not being so darkly ‘folky' and presenting double binds etc I’ll possibly go higher.