The Big & Dandy 25I-NBOMe Thread (3rd edition)

[theUniverse]

Complexation absolutely increases absorption. The problem with non complexed 25i is that its solubility in water is so low (<10% ) that you literally cannot get high off of it if you try to make a blotter because you'll have 100ug... AND the absorption sucks... so freebase can really only be smoked or snorted.

If you use a chemical to turn your 25i into the HCL salt, both solubility and absorption go up to around 50-60%. This is still non complexed.

You're confused, because here we recommend ~500ug complexed for a first time, but for the HCL this is going to be about double that dose to get the same effects.

Complexing with HBPCD is like putting a condom over the molecule to get it across our skin membranes. It increases absorption to almost 90-100%.

Most blotter is going to be complexed anyways... It's not economical at all to blotter straight HCL salt. You lose half the product you're selling!

We can absolutely give a one size fits all first time dosage based on all of these threads...

Encourage people to find the optimal dose using titration? Are you kidding me? I don't care what you think is "safe," that's not how human beings operate. Most of the time this drug is found on blotters if you're getting it from any old street dealer. How is a laymen going to titrate that? Let's be realistic about this.

I'd also like to echo the request for some sources on this. Only three pages back you were spouting stuff to me that was clearly wrong.

And you are saying HCL will not dissolve in water, when it will. Freebase will not dissolve in water, but must then be converted to a salt.

 

[SkunkyMonkey]

hey guys. i recently took two 0.5mg blotters of this stuff and had an awesome time with loads of closed eye visuals and only 1 very vivid open eye fractal type thing (and a lot of giggles) but i don't think i held them in my mouth for long enough as a friend later told me he had his in his mouth for around 45 minutes and didnt spit for 30 of them and he tripped way harder than me. gonna try the same again but do the same as him and see if it makes any difference, when do you guys reckon i should try again if i took it 2 days ago? i read around 2-3 weeks but i was hoping sooner! also i tried 2c-e for the first time today and an hour after taking it(oral 10mg) i was sick, felt like i was about to start trippin balls afterwards but nothing happened, just had a weird uncomfortable bodyload that made me feel like i needed to stretch my arms and legs a lot? do you think the reason i didn't really get anything was possibly caused by 25i nbome tolerence or did i just sick it up or was the dose too low for me?

 

[Synaesthesia242]

It was due to the NBOME tolerance. Even a week after NBOMEs I had strong tolerance to LSD and MDMA. Wait 2 weeks would be my recommendation. Yeah they're uncommonly strong tolerance causing drugs.

 

[slo mo]

It was due to the NBOME tolerance. Even a week after NBOMEs I had strong tolerance to LSD and MDMA. Wait 2 weeks would be my recommendation. Yeah they're uncommonly strong tolerance causing drugs.

Everyone that does NBOMe's, follow his advice. No trips the week after, even if you double your usual dose The negative effect of NBOMe's If there is a way to remove this tolerance , share the discovery

 

[c1pher]

I just started reading about this substance and from a harm reduction standpoint everyone should just be advised to STAY AWAY FROM THIS SUBSTANCE.....and to the unscrupulous dealers out there marketing this has a viable alternative to SAFE psychedelics quit fucking doing that shit.....this is a direct consequence of the war on drugs...more BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[weadazoid]

I just started reading about this substance and from a harm reduction standpoint everyone should just be advised to STAY AWAY FROM THIS SUBSTANCE.....and to the unscrupulous dealers out there marketing this has a viable alternative to SAFE psychedelics quit fucking doing that shit.....this is a direct consequence of the war on drugs...more BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is that supposed to mean?



Look you might as well say that about MDMA as well then, cause geuss what at one point it started out as an RC.... I would venture to say in modern times LSD would be branded a research chemical


is it the result of the War on Drugs..... yes it's the result of chemists coming up with new ways to sherk the law.


THe bottom line is the fed can't act on everysingle one of these fun substances unless they create a blanket law but that would pretty much ban '



research as we know it


so for now for these years the chemists get to operate in safer cladestine site instead of the basement of a row home where most of the E I did in the 90's came from.....



If you are all about maryjane trust me as some one who knows hydro is loaded with chemicals that are unatural altering the time for a light cycle warps the plants natural course giving people bigger better buds Kind.... is not really natural. just because it grows green doesn't mean that it isn't man made.




If proper precautions are taken this one seems OK to me I wouldn't recomend a novice to this world work with liquid LSD either for fear of overdoseing people







is it dangerous


yes

but really pretty much everything is... mushrooms are dangerous too, no garauntee they actually came out of a cow pasture could be grown in a basement could have black mold on it..... or worse if it is from a cow pasture fun bacteria and fluke worms that may find a way into your system

 

[doomsdayguy]

Sorry, but you sound like the one who's confused. You're repeating the words and figures of someone who doesn't even post around here any longer.

Personally I would recommend 500ug of the HCl on blotter for a first-timer. You could maybe go up to 800ug for someone who has a lot of experience with other psychedelics and knows how to handle themselves if a trip turns bad. I would definitely NOT recommend taking 1mg+ for a first experience for anyone, and this is even if it's uncomplexed HCl and even if it's on blotter.

This is based on my own personal experience over the past nine months (19 trips and counting as of this afternoon, all with dosages between 0.5-1.3mg) as well as the dozens of other reports I've read that have been posted to these threads. What are you basing your statements on?



Well, that's exactly the problem with blotters, they come in units that can't be precisely divided. They should be laid about 400ug per blotter IMO (not to mention, clearly labelled with the correct dosage and material, but I guess that's too much to ask...). Anyone who's laying a milligram or more per dose and distributing that is risking the sanity or even the lives of their own customers.

My figures are both from personal experience (8 trips all 1mg and lower) and a mix of things I've seen across the internet. I've seen documentation on solubility/absorption deep in either the shroomery or here which is where those numbers derive from. My own experience confirms for me that HCL is about half the intensity of complexed HCL OR freebase, which is why I recommend 500ug for complexed (1mg is insanely dysphoric) and 1mg for HCL. Whether or not it's on blotter doesn't really matter, I only mentioned it because I'd recommend always splitting an nbome blotter in half when you first try it.

I never accounted for different forms (HCL, FB, complexed) may have a different response curve in themselves, just assumed that everyone's bioavailability was the same.

I'd also like to echo the request for some sources on this. Only three pages back you were spouting stuff to me that was clearly wrong.

And you are saying HCL will not dissolve in water, when it will. Freebase will not dissolve in water, but must then be converted to a salt.

No, I've always said that freebase has horrible solubility, HCL is a decent amount better, and complexed of either is about double HCL's.

Three pages back, I was confused in thinking that you had said you tripped on blotters made with freebase, but you said acetate. My apologies.

 

[twelvesevndi]

^thats an astounding conclusion considering that some people on this board are saying that non-complexed blotter is equally effective if you leave it to absorb long enough.

i don't doubt that this is true for you. what i'm trying to say here is that the only thing consistent about these drugs, as i read it, is that it is surprisingly hard to predict the effects of NBOMe drugs among individuals. i don't know how to explain this (i would guess some combination of variance in personal biochemistry and variance in administration techniques) but i think its important to consider if you wish to give out dosage advice.

personally i would only recommend that a person start at
nasal: 200 ug and titrate up in 100 ug increments
buccal: 400 ug and titrate in 200 ug increments

titration should only be carried out over 2 week intervals

this is pretty conservative and means that a person would probably have to wait at least a month to have a full trip. but if you can't be bothered to wait you can just get a different drug, eh?

 

[c1pher]

i don't know how many times i've seen people take 2-3 times the "recommended" dose of drugs........instead of an half eighth of mushrooms they eat a quarter, instead of 1-1 and 1/2 tabs of x they eat 3-5, instead of 1-2 tabs of lsd they eat 3-5.......the difference is no one dies from eating "too-much" of those drugs....there is a lot of wiggle room for people to "learn" from their mistakes..........not die thats what i'm getting at, i'm sure some of the seasoned psychonauts on here CAN handle these substances but 99.5% of people won't be able to and that is that.

edit: AND when people start selling this has lsd and these kids start dying you all know what the headlines will say.......10 kids die at local party due to lsd or some other such nonsense.....its already hard enough to get good drugs why make it any harder......I FUCKING HATE THE MAN AND ALL OF THEIR STUPID BULLSHIT LAWS.....taking gifts and turning them into rubish.......one day, in time, i hope to see these mistakes remedied.

edit*2 yeah i just took a stroll down "memory lane" aka the historic post of the PD forum and see several post confirming my above statement and i only went back 2 pages or so.......it's sad how the combination of capatilism and fear mongering have come together to sabotage so much good in the united states...........

 

[theUniverse]

The problem is that people are buying these things from not trustworthy sources. These drugs should not even be taken by people who have not researched thoroughly and don't know for a fact where the drugs came from.

This really isn't the discussion for "hating the man", so how about we keep to harm reduction, and general NBOMe knowledge.

"Well now I've got some
A-dvice for you, little buddy.
Before you point the finger
You should know that
I'm the man,

And if I'm the man,

Then you're the man, and
He's the man as well so you can
Point that fuckin' finger up your ass."

You can't blame them when you aren't actively helping yourself

No, I've always said that freebase has horrible solubility, HCL is a decent amount better, and complexed of either is about double HCL's.

Three pages back, I was confused in thinking that you had said you tripped on blotters made with freebase, but you said acetate. My apologies.

The problem with non complexed 25i is that its solubility in water is so low (<10% )

And do we not get to see the sources for the numbers? Sorry, but they seem to just be randomly thrown out there.

 

[✰hyperobjects✰]

Look you might as well say that about MDMA as well then, cause geuss what at one point it started out as an RC.... I would venture to say in modern times LSD would be branded a research chemical

Yes this is true.

is it the result of the War on Drugs..... yes it's the result of chemists coming up with new ways to sherk the law.

No this is not true. The n-Benzyl PEAs was designed at David E. Nichols' labs as a part of legitimate receptor agonist research. The recreational community hijacked this research. The definition of what an RC isn't and shouldn't be defined by the activities of clandestine chemists who work outside academia to skirt drug laws. There are also legitimate reasons why individual researchers should be allowed to bioassay these compounds on their own time. In part because of it's outside the domain of inquiry of mainstream neurobiology and psychopharmacology to investigate the non-therapeutic aspects of drugs and their SAR.

THe bottom line is the fed can't act on everysingle one of these fun substances unless they create a blanket law but that would pretty much ban '



research as we know it

If proper precautions are taken this one seems OK to me I wouldn't recomend a novice to this world work with liquid LSD either for fear of overdoseing people is it dangerous

This is one of the looming 21st century neuroethics issues: cognitive liberty and the right to self determine mental states. The problem is sensible drug policy begins first with sensible drug use and we really need to step up our education of this next generation of researchers on basic lab technique, how to minimize risk, and holding the media accountable when they misreport overdoses and fatalities.

 

[Wallydwanker]

Would dissolving 25i into DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) and apply it dermaly, work as an ROA?

 

[ShaggyFin]

After reading this thread, I REALLY want to test this... Subbed

 

[zn13bt]

And do we not get to see the sources for the numbers? Sorry, but they seem to just be randomly thrown out there.

The 95% figure originally comes from tregar's post from the first B&D thread: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...NBOMe-Thread?p=9845593&viewfull=1#post9845593 Specifically this part:

The Joseph Pitha study showed that when testosterone was complexed with hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin, that 95% absorption was achieved in 20 minutes via the sublingual route, whereas normally hydrophobic testosterone is absorbed less than around 40% normally via sublingual route.

But it's clear from the original context that he was talking about the absorption of complexed testosterone, not 25I-NBOMe. He was just speculating that the same figure applies when NBOMes are complexed. I don't know where the idea that non-complexed HCl salts are only 50% effective comes from, but it may be a garbled version of the 40% figure for non-complexed testosterone. As far as I can tell, tregar never even tried buccal administration of the HCl salts on their own.

The "molecular condom" analogy that is often quoted along with these figures also comes from the same post:

Think of it as like a "molecular condom" that fits the drug so that it can be delivered across sublingual/buccal membranes with significantly improved efficiency.

It's kind of amazing to me how one person's speculations can get quoted and re-quoted over and over again until it becomes the gospel truth in some circles.

 

[doomsdayguy]

The 95% figure originally comes from tregar's post from the first B&D thread: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...NBOMe-Thread?p=9845593&viewfull=1#post9845593 Specifically this part:



But it's clear from the original context that he was talking about the absorption of complexed testosterone, not 25I-NBOMe. He was just speculating that the same figure applies when NBOMes are complexed. I don't know where the idea that non-complexed HCl salts are only 50% effective comes from, but it may be a garbled version of the 40% figure for non-complexed testosterone. As far as I can tell, tregar never even tried buccal administration of the HCl salts on their own.

The "molecular condom" analogy that is often quoted along with these figures also comes from the same post:



It's kind of amazing to me how one person's speculations can get quoted and re-quoted over and over again until it becomes the gospel truth in some circles.

If I had little to no experience with the chem, I would completely take the corrections, but my personal experience has confirmed the numbers I gave. I understand it IS very different for everyone though, so I apologize for coming out first as this being the law. It's strange that 500ug can be 3000ug to another, and it's a fact that I tend to forget.

 

[LiquidNebula]

So,at the same dosage,what is the most visual between this and 25c ?

 

[twelvesevndi]

^excellent response

anyone have any experience using over-the-counter vasodilators with NBOMe drugs?

I was sold on L-Arginine until reading this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9833603

the bodybuilders agree l-arginine is an ineffective vasodilator and claim citrulline malate works well as one. I have found some peer-reviewed studies showing that it does reduce muscle fatigue but I can't find anything about its effects on blood pressure or nitric oxide levels in healthy humans...

anyone care to comment or have suggestions for OTC vasodilators? I know that in the LSA vasoconstriction thread one person claimed Taurine worked for him, and Xorkoth said l-arginine worked for him.

 

[azzo]

So,at the same dosage,what is the most visual between this and 25c ?

25I is more visual, and i think many would agree on this, anyway 25C is stronger so you have to take different dosages to achieve comparable effects.

 

[5HToInfinity]

25I is more visual, and i think many would agree on this, anyway 25C is stronger so you have to take different dosages to achieve comparable effects.

Hm, in my experience 25C is way more visual. I got blasted through the roof on 700ug of 25C, and only got comparable visuals on 1.2mg of 25I.

 

[LiquidNebula]

With 800ug of 25c i had amazing tridimensional CEVs,the OEVs consisted of the common dancing "aztec-like" patterns (well,this time they were much more,let's say,medieval lol).And then,it was also really digital...pixels everywhere.