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The Big & Dandy 1P-LSD Thread, Volume 1

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50ug of LSD is pretty darn low -- near-threshold, as I said. I, and probably most people here, would consider a standard dose of LSD to be between about 80ug and 300ug. Also, many people, probably most, take more than one tab.

Anyway, LSD and 1P-LSD are, to me, qualitatively identical, so the question of whether the latter is a pro-drug or not is hardly relevant. I feel, and in this we might agree, Serotonin, that the differences that some people perceive between LSD and 1P-LSD are probably manifestations of the placebo effect.
 
Again, please re-read what I posted. I said "I'm not saying that it isn't possible to perceive differences between different hallucinogens. Clearly people perceive differences."

But it is one thing to perceive differences, and quite another to say that those differences are characteristic effects of the drugs that prove that 1P-LSD is not a pro-drug for LSD.

So here is evidence that people are detecting qualitative differences between the effects of LSD when it is taken at different dosage levels. If that is the case, then how much faith should we put in people's perception about differences in the effects of LSD and 1P-LSD at different doses? How do we know that the differences people are picking up between LSD and 1P-LSD really reflect pharmacological differences between the two drugs, as opposed to subjective differences like those that lead people to think their LSD is contaminated with strychnine?

1) the erowid article linked is from 2003. there's no doubt the people who would have been sending in LSD to be tested with worries of contaminants at that time were less educated and experienced in the full range of psychedelic compounds than the users here.

2) when it comes to identifying different psychedelics from experience alone, I would ask the same question as above. I can identify an ergoloid vs tryptamine vs. phenethylamine one hundred percent of the time, and even without knowing it's a different chemical probably distinguish it from those I've tried, not to mention almost for sure be able to differentiate all I've done between themselves. It's unquestionable that every single compound has different effects profiles, quantitatively .
 
I think I brought up an interesting point which has not been addressed by anyone...so ill remind you guys with all due respect :)

1p-lsd has the propionyl added on to standard LSD which is a more complex molecule, if Im not mistaken, correct? So I believe if my hypothesis here is correct MORE varied effects can occur with individual metabolisms due to individual body chemistry /enzyme levels etc. I find it STARTLING that peacephrog needs 300ug for a proper trip and I need 100 to LOSE MY SHIT. While He and I both only need around 100ug of classic L25 to have a proper experience....The last time I experimented with 1p I had 100ug sublingually and the effect was at least 3x the potency of the other time I took it orally.

Now , residual stimulation; I dont know if this is an objective effect until we can start studying how 1p reacts in the body but the residual stimulation factor is EXACTLY what Ive always disliked about LSD...I dreaded that "come down" period. The crazy overstimulated dopaminergic effect I get is just too much with classic L25. With 1p it WAS NOT THERE...8 hours and I was back to normal headspace albeit there was a nice afterglow...and some visual acuity. But at 10 hours the trip was non-existant. It took me a handful of trials to really nail all this as I thought it may have been a fluke initially. In fact if you go back in this thread 20 or so pages youll find that I was totally on board with the prodrug theory...now with my body chemistry Im certain theirs more to this chemical unless I dont understand the prodrug chemistry. I am under the impression that a prodrug will metabolize into the active drug and produce effects identical to the active drug that passes the BBB with possibly minute differences in strength and length, but thats it. With 1p there is more going on than that IME.

I do see alot of your points serotonin and it seems to me that were basically all on the same page and the argument was based on misunderstanding each other. Yes humans are suggestible and they are even more suggestible under psychedelics which makes it difficult to judge effects without bias.

Would I be able to differentiate unusually high doses of LSD? Thats difficult to say and a good point but at certain points of the trip I find that most psychedelics produce quite a bit of delirium and confusion at high doses. But that would be like asking someone if they remember what month it is after a couple liters of whiskey....kind of useless..as its essentially an "overdose"(more than needed) High doses of any psychoactive are likely to render the subjects opinions on anything rather useless... But also you must consider the complete experience regardless of duration. Sure at some points , for example the peak of psilocin and the peak of LSD their may be brief moments in which the experience is extremely similar and nearly impossible to differentiate... I find myself flip flopping about many things while trippin. For example , "This is really strong"...."no its not ...this is just right"..."no wait this is reeeeally too much"..."Nah....Im good this is mellow"....its usually in retrospect I can form opinions and compare and contrast the percieved experience and come to conclusions about strength/qualitative eexperience etc.
 
When you did your sublingual test how long did you hold it under your tougnue?

Because the first time I tested it I held it under my tougnue for a good 20 minutes before swallowing it. That was a 100mcg trial.

From my 4 tests I can tell no difference between sublingual and oral.

Now an empty stomach should yield different results in my experience with most drugs.....

But because of the widely varied results between 100 and 300 mcg on different subjects I to have to assume that metabolism plays a HUGE roll in the activity of 1P.....and from everything I've read here it sure does point to that factor making it a prodrug, because regular LSD does not have that variance.....most people get off pretty much across the board on the same dose
 
I think that 1p probably converts to lsd at different levels in different people ...i mean if 100ug is nearly inactive in you and in me the one sublingual dose I took (15 mins under the tongue...chewed , swallowed and spit the paper out) resulted in a near saturation level experience...I have done 500-700ug lsd an this felt about the same ....it felt like it could not get more intense......but I could be wrong ....I just can't accept that they are the se however
 
Ok for the sake of science, I'm ready to make blind test with 1p-lsd vs lsd. Please send me 10 tabs of each and I'll do the test :)
 
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It's hard for me to believe it's the same batch or something's up...cause even at 300 it wasn't overwhelming....I've tripped way harder off 2 tabs of LSD
 
let's not forget though that LSD does have affinity for D2r which probably accounts for some inherent difference in effects. I think I remember of a paper from Nichols were ketanserin did not block all of the behavioural effects of LSD in mice, while haloperidol did.
I'm pretty sure it was the other way around.
 
It's hard for me to believe it's the same batch or something's up...cause even at 300 it wasn't overwhelming....I've tripped way harder off 2 tabs of LSD

Was it the premade "official" blotters with 1-P-LSD printed on them, some other blotter, or did you dose it yourself volumtrically from powder?

1-P-LSD should be a strong trip at 100 ug, and a quite overwhelming one at 300 ug. If you don't get any effects from 3 blotters, then I think it's most likely that your blotters were underdosed by mistake, by who ever laid them.

Demand is huge at the moment, mistakes are bound to happen during mass soaking of 1000s and 1000s of sheets. In my opinion, even two adjacent blotters on the same sheet could absorb quite different amounts, because remember, we are talking minute quantities here.

Anyway, I really don't think there's enough proper data for a "metabolism theory". At this point, uneven dosing is a much more simple and likely answer to the mystery.

Solution: Buy the powder, and dose it yourself.
 
Well that was my assumption when my gf and I tripped off 100ug this last time, faggot ...as I said it was near saturation point...we felt like it couldn't get much stronger and I had an experience that I've never had on any trip in my life ...I felt a pleasant warm sensation on my ajna chakra and then all the stereotypical CEVs stopped I saw light emitting from my center forehead ...this overwhelming bad trip/ confusion just stopped and I I felt calmness and clarity...white /silver rays of light coming off of everyone around me...and the atmosphere had this softness to it ...dream like I suppose...but totally lucid ...I no longer felt high...but as I said lucid and sober....I have never experienced this on any psychedelic but if I were to guess perhaps I had a DMT release and I would guess it's not likely this would happen from 100ug....anyway yes my first impression was that my dose was much bigger than 100ug ...perhaps a hotspot on the sheet...my gf and I took a tab each which were connected on the sheet....she said that she tripped way harder than she expected but maybe not quite as hard as I did
 
They are printed with 1P on them

I've had friends get off really hard taking 1 1/2 off the same sheet
Full blown visuals auras around people....and lasted longer for them also

I got effects from 300.....2 hours into it I smoked a bit of hash and it got pretty strong, but nothing like al described
 
Well..peacephrog..I may be mistaken but couldnt you put it in a glass of water and in theory it will convert to LSD? Then just drink the water and voila? If not water maybe theres something that will rapidly convert it...so to bypass your enzyme/body chemistry issue
 
Why not dissolve in water and then plug for faster come up, reduced nausea and increased potency.
 
They are printed with 1P on them

I've had friends get off really hard taking 1 1/2 off the same sheet
Full blown visuals auras around people....and lasted longer for them also

I got effects from 300.....2 hours into it I smoked a bit of hash and it got pretty strong, but nothing like al described
Yeah, I see. That is strange.

But in my opinion, two adjacent blotters on a sheet could easily contain a 50% difference or more, by mistake. So that your friends got off doesn't mean much. In the end, there's probably several factors at play, but I find it most likely that the main culprit is unevenly laid blotters. When your tolerance resets, you should try again :)

I guess that some one who has extensive experience with dosing themselves and others, with liquid, volumetrically, could answer the question. And tell us if they're getting the same effects from the same dose - everytime.

I'm not saying there are NO differences between hallucinogens -- they are different drugs. I am saying that it is pointless to try to figure out if 1P is a prodrug based on any perceived subjective differences because of how variable the effects of hallucinogens can be, and because people are notoriously bad at objectively evaluating those differences. People can mistake one drug for another, and they may get qualitatively different effects from different doses or even from factors such as the color of a pill. If the placebo effect works when someone is sober, can you imagine how much it will be amplified in someone after taking 100 mcg LSD?

There were several studies that looked at the differences between individual hallucinations. Here is the one that I was specifically talking about. Again, I'm not claiming that there are no differences, just that they are not apparently useful if you want to try to identify which drug you have taken:
http://eywa.maps.org/w3pb/new/1967/1967_Abramson_1999_1.pdf

I just read that study, and I think I could conclude the exact opposite of it, than what they are. There's only six people in the study. At 150 different occasions they are administered "something" which is either LSD-25. psilocybin, methysergide, BOL, LMP, LAE. LEP, LME, MLD or placebo.

They are also studying cross tolerance, giving one of the inactive LSD analogs for a week, before administering LSD. Which indeed did produce tolerance.

Well, to the point. Looking at these tables, except for one guy, I actually think that the 5 of them are pretty good at descerning LSD, psilocybin and placebo from each other.
Doses of the active psychedelics are pretty low. LSD doses ranging from 25 ug (barely above the official treshold of 20 ug) to 50 ug (which surely is a trip, but not a strong one). But the LSD dose given most often is 35 ug - that is not a strong dose. It just isn't.

Psilocybin is given mostly in either 3 mg or 6 mg doses.

My point is, the lower the dose the more difficult it is to discern different characteristics of that compound. I am sure I couldn't feel any difference either between 25-35 ug of LSD and 3-4 mg psilocybin. But with bigger dosages, I'm sure I could. All psychedelics appear the same at just above treshold, imo. Slight euphoria, slight color enhancement, giddiness and restlessness., or maybe a languid bodyfeeling - nothing more. Maybe some slight color sploches with closed eyes, what could become CEW's at higher doses.

So, of the 6 test persons one is completely hopeless at discerning LSD and psilocybin. It's funny, because I have a friend, and to him 2C-I and LSD is almost the same, while to me, they're worlds apart. Two very different experiences. It just leads me to the conclusion, that some people just aren't really open to the differences between psychedelics - either because they just don't think about it (notice it) or maybe because of how they are built, what do I know.

It's like the whole 4-aco-dmt vs 4-ho-dmt debate. Some people swear they are different, while others swears they're completely identical.

Add to that, the study is made in 1965, Even if they are said to be experienced participants, I think that is a relative concept back then, compared to people on here today, that have litteraly 1000s of trips under their belt, with many many different compounds.

This is from the summary of the study, notice the underscored part:

"Data from more than 150 experiments including placebo trials are presented. Although it was found that differences in the rates of action and in the duration of action were observed, the effects of the drugs, as measured by the questionnaire, were strikingly similar at their respective dosages just above the threshold level and at 2 to 3 times above these levels."

In my opinion, you can't conclude that drugs are similar, because of what somebody answers in a questionair. To draw any certain conclusions on the subjective differences between LSD and psilocybin, a better study than that is needed, surely.

And, I think that chalking any differences between different compounds up to placebo, is making something very complex into something very simple. And while placebo is very real, wine tasting, using your taste buds, and an all-encompasing psychedelic experience just can't be compared.

And just because studies have been made, that prooves that people can get better from placebo medicine, doesn't mean either that that study can be used directly to draw conclusions on psychedelic drugs and placebo.

All that said, it's not that I disagree very much with your last post, it's just that believing everything is down to placebo, is just as silly as completely discounting the placebo effect.

And as I've already said once, 1-P-LSD and LSD are so very very close, that I completely agree with you, that any differences that people are reporting in this thread are probably because of placebo or what ever. :)
 
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I'm pretty sure it was the other way around.

From this article

"By contrast, when LSD was injected 90 min before training (LSD90 rats) it produced a cue that was not fully blocked by 5-HT2A antagonists, but instead was significantly inhibited by haloperidol."

And then there is this other article: Further evidence that the delayed temporal dopaminergic effects of LSD are mediated by a mechanism different than the first temporal phase of action.

I'm not sure if the link is working on this last one though, i'm on my phone.
 
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Hardhead probably a bit but I think I not the only one to feel that 1p seems less potent than lsd. However it's difficult to compare because it's impossible to know how much lsd I have on a lsd tab but the general consensus is that there is between 70µ and 100µ on street tabs.

I use Piracetam as nootropic from time to time. No particular psychological issue, I'm a rather positive and stable person.

Yes nadh with lsd or 1p is wonderful (at the right time). Now I'm using nicotinamide riboside. It is better and it has a better bio-availability (nadh has to be taken on an empty stomach). If I take it when I'm peaking (around t+2h), 20 minutes later all the tension disappear and I'm extremely focused. For me the interesting part of the trip starts then.

Hey, I completely missed your response yesterday. It's interesting information. I'll look into NADH and NR. Cheers.
 
I am under the impression that a prodrug will metabolize into the active drug and produce effects identical to the active drug that passes the BBB with possibly minute differences in strength and length, but thats it. With 1p there is more going on than that IME.


Actually, I find it very likely that 1P could provide a different subjective experience than LSD while still being only a prodrug of it. The pharmacokinetics and speed of absorption/administration of a drug can clearly affect its effect profile, specially with drugs that induce acute tolerance like most psychedelics seem to do. This is also why many drugs give qualitatively different experiences when consumed by different ROAs. Think of snorted cocaine vs freebase smoked cocaine, smoked 5-meo-mipt vs oral 5-meo-mipt, etc. in that cases only the speed of administration is what differs. And if a prodrug is being slowly decomposed into it's active form by first pass metabolism, then all the pharmacokinetics of the drug are distorted, which is logical to account for some small differences. Maybe something about its biotransformation make it less likely that the metabolite that accounts for the dopaminergic activity of LSD accumulates in the brain, which would explain what you are saying about the comedown ??
 
I've got 6 100ug tabs and am looking to have an extremely insightful and introspective trip this Sunday; need to figure out what I want with my life at the minute so I mean seriously introspective. I've got years and years of experience tripping - what dose would you recommend? I was thinking 150ug, would that be enough? Thanks :)
My husband will be tripping alongside me and is also very experienced for what it's worth, but I want to focus on myself during this trip.
 
Actually, I find it very likely that 1P could provide a different subjective experience than LSD while still being only a prodrug of it. The pharmacokinetics and speed of absorption/administration of a drug can clearly affect its effect profile, specially with drugs that induce acute tolerance like most psychedelics seem to do. This is also why many drugs give qualitatively different experiences when consumed by different ROAs. Think of snorted cocaine vs freebase smoked cocaine, smoked 5-meo-mipt vs oral 5-meo-mipt, etc. in that cases only the speed of administration is what differs. And if a prodrug is being slowly decomposed into it's active form by first pass metabolism, then all the pharmacokinetics of the drug are distorted, which is logical to account for some small differences. Maybe something about its biotransformation make it less likely that the metabolite that accounts for the dopaminergic activity of LSD accumulates in the brain, which would explain what you are saying about the comedown ??


yes Ive considered this before as well....I noticed alot of people have experienced what I have with 1p as well...that the fractal hologram-esque OEVs and CEVs never fully develop like with the classic.....even on this really high intensity trip this was the case....however visually it was still very interesting....it had stronger effects on dimensional/spacial distortion...and scene splicing....If anyones seen the film "Interstellar" it reminded me of the last thirty or so mins of it...portions of my field of vision would multiply and repeat as if I was standing between two mirrors ....the world appeared to bow and concave...things like that...but not much laser/hologram fractal visual overlay...very interesting stuff!

Im not sure what the point of this post was in response to yours....but I do agree that it could be a prodrug....It just seemed like general consensus was "Its just a prodrug....theres nothing new here" ...and my argument is "..I dont care what it is...theres certainly something novel going on"
 
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