• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ
  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

The Big and Dandy Endogenous Psychedelics Thread (mega-merged)!

You want refs:-

http://www.nel.edu/20_5/nel20_5orig3_Csernus.htm

http://www.mcmaster.ca/inabis98/brown/arendt0880/

http://www.erowid.org/smarts/melatonin/melatonin_info.shtml

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1501761&dopt=Abstract

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/282/2/E297

http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/studentdownloads/DEA325pdfs/biorhythms.pdf

http://www.nsbri.org/Research/PublicationLists/SleepTeamPublications.pdf

The last one is a list of refs, as I got sick of copying and pasting (also, you can copy and paste if you want to have a look at them).


Despite the proviso at the end of my post, you still didn't post any refs. Anybody can say they got a reply

See what copy and paste can do:

----- Original Message -----
From: "fastandbulbous" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 3:03 PM
Subject: question about tryptophan metabolism


> Hi, God. I'm not sure if you remember me,
> , I emailed you with
> a question regarding chocolate as a weak
> MAOI, and a possible potentiator with psilocybin last
> year.
>
> This time I come to you with a question you may be
> more familiar with...it's regarding tryptophan
> metabolism into DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. Do you know the
> metabolic pathways that convert l-tryptophan into said
> tryptamines, and the enzymes responsible for the
> reactions? Does serotonin metabolize into DMT (and if
> so, what enzyme removes the hydroxy group)?
>
> respectfully,
> fastandbulbous.


One last thing:
How many times did you confuse DMT and 5-methoxy DMT? at least twice (selected statements from you in italics in my second last post): To paraphrase Oscar Wilde

"To confuse DMT/5-methoxy DMT once can be seen as unfortunate, to do it twice seems like carelessness"


References dear boy, references are the proof of the pudding

PS on everything I've looked at :-

mailto:[email protected]

was the email address given to contact him, such as here
 
Last edited:
http://www.nel.edu/20_5/nel20_5orig3_Csernus.htm

bock bock bwaahhck... nice article, but last time i checked, we don't have chicken brains.

http://www.mcmaster.ca/inabis98/brown/arendt0880/


the last paragraph screams "inconclusive"

"...However many questions remain and much further research is needed on its physiological role and pharmacological effects in humans. It is likely that endogenous melatonin indicates dark onset (the rise) and offset (the decline) and reinforces physiological functions associated with darkness in humans as in other mammals. "

http://www.erowid.org/smarts/melatonin/melatonin_info.shtml

*reconsidered* several refs on this one (old ones too), but none are conclusive either :\

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1501761&dopt=Abstract

yet more rodent studies...


http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/282/2/E297

interesting, but inconclusive

http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/studentdownloads/DEA325pdfs/biorhythms.pdf

?? is this a melatonin abstract?


I asked for refs of conclusive studies.

none of these provide any proof; in order for proof to exist, results must be conclusive, and none of these provide any

and "God" will (as noted in his reply) provide me with a copy of the mentioned paper on tryptophan metabolism, which I will paste with all the hoaxed (as you no-doubtedly will presume) and doctored references 8) still waiting on a reply from Beelzebub too.


PS-- his website is one way to contact him; he also has email with earthlink (his primary) and taosnet.
 
Last edited:
any way I could upload a pdf file on here? this is a really good paper; not conclusive, but far more explanatory (and current) than anything on the net, with plenty of references-- no new age bollocks, psychobabble, nor pretentious scientific skepticism.

It's entitled "Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine", published Nov.5, 2004

in the mean time, I found another interesting link : http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...d=158229&md5=473d6d92172561d103a64a29fafb5591
 
Last edited:
...and reinforces physiological functions associated with darkness in humans as in other mammals.

Dopamine is the neurotransmitter that is responsible for re-enforcement of drug activity in other mammals, and produces the craving symptoms seen as drug seeking behaviour.

That applies to humans as well


Mu opiate antagonists block the painkilling effects of endorphins in other mammals.

That applies to humans


Take any neurotransmitter, and the effect it has in mammals, and it also holds true for humans.

Melatonin- a neurotransmitter (or neuroendocrine secretion, depends upon which way you want to look at it) linked to light/dark cycle in other mammals...

The effects of these compounds are similar in all mammals, because they developed before even pre-hominids walked on the Earth. What makes you think that we are going to have a different mechanism regarding circadian rhythms?

When it comes to things like neuroanatomy, were different (such as Broca's area, because we have developed a symbolic language) in some ways, but the chemicals that get the job done are the same. If melatonin is involved in circadian rhythms in all other mammals looked at they're going to be the same in humans. Man has only been a distinct species for at most 6 million years. Structures in the brain may have changed in that time, but not the function of the neurotransmitters. Noradrenaline is responsible for fight or flight in ALL mammals because that drastic a change doesn't happen over 6 million years.

So, when it comes to basic functions of a neurochemical, what it does in rats, cats, dogs and blue arsed baboons is going to be the same for humans. It's the relative structures of the brain that are important in differentiating us, not the neurochemicals

But back to the original point of contention; still no refs for DMT biosynthesis from serotonin? (or 5-methoxy DMT from melatonin?)
 
mad_chemist said:






well, I've apparently come across a 2002 abstract from the Journal of Neuroscience Nursing ( June issue) which says the contrary; in depth study of melatonin, 7-page article...According to the studies, there was no conclusive evidence that melatonin has any specific biological role in humans (because results were inconsistent).
Click to expand...

man, I hate having to quote myself. didn't I ask for conclusive evidence?

and there are refs are in the pdf I'd like to upload, regarding DMT (i stand corrected...bufotenine seems like a more likely by-product of serotonin, not DMT); it's a real hum-dinger
 
Last edited:
If conclusive means that you want data that pertains specifically to humans, then quite a bit of neuroendocrinology and psychopharmacology can be thrown into doubt, as working models for humans are based on investigations of other mammals (or non-human primates for activity involving higher functions). The only way of conclusively proving the same mechanism in man is to start carrying out experiments on human subjects (including things like destroying areas of the brain to see how people function without it). Sometimes, something like a stroke will accidentally destroy selected areas of the brain, and those unfortunate people then further the animal models by showing the same system in man (the book Phantoms in the Brain by V.S. Ramachandran is a compilation of such things), but until a stroke causes that to occur naturally, the only coclusive way of proving it would be to indulge in the practices of people like Mengele.

As PET and NMR (and to an extent studies using magnetoencephalographic (MEG) recording and transcrainial magnetic stimulation (TMS) techniques) become more advanced, we have to depend upon animal models, and the fact that they (as far as is measurable) are the same as in man to characterise the processes.

Are you going to throw into doubt huge areas of research, because one report cites results as inconclusive, whereas others have matched animal data to that seen in humans? There is no conclusive proof of the stages of development of hominids through to modern day man, but in the absence of data to disprove the evolutionary sequence, it's very short sighted to revert to the creationists theory of the origin of man.

but were unable to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that melatonin was the sole neurotransmitter responsible for regulating circadian rhythms..

If you notice, I'm not saying it's the sole neurochemical involved, merely that it's the main one. After 4 billion years of evolution, of course were not going to be that simple; noradrenaline isn't the sole agent involved in fight or flight response, there's adrenaline, glucagon, dopamine and a whole load of other compounds, but noradrenaline is characterised as the main agent

PS Bufotenine is 5-hydroxy DMT, which is in line with what I've been saying all along about the biosynthetic route for DMT and 5-methoxy DMT ie serotonin is the biosynthetic precursor of 5-methoxy DMT, but not DMT
 
Last edited:
The Big and Dandy endogenous DMT discussion thread (mega-merged)!

If this not appropriate for this forum ,feel free to move it

I was unable to sleep the other night and ended up watching a discovery channel special on alien abduction. As I was listening to more and more of the stories being told; I began to notice striking similarities to stories of entity contact with dmt. There are many stories of uncomfortable mental and physical probing by insectiod entitys, which is remarkably similar to dmt creatures. It is also often acompanied by a high pitch buzzing that can be both felt and heard, also common with dmt. I know DMT occours naturally in the brain and has increased levels present during REM (rapid eye mevement; the type of sleep with the most sub-conscieous activity); my question is do you think that there is any connection between the two phenomena??

This ought to strike an interesting conversation!!



Ha, this is my 1000th post!!
 
Perhaps all of those UFO sightings were due to incidental DMT secretions. :)
 
^^ I dont know about ufo sightings so much. There are very few consistent details in those stories and videos. I am far more interested in the full on abduction type stories which seem to be very consistent both in and of themselves, but more importantly, with DMT entity contact stories.
 
wierd. I never knew DMT sometimes makes a buzzing noise heard/felt. can DMT be found in a liquid form? one time i got sold *acid* that totally was something other than LSD. kinda of off topic just wondering.

but i've had some dreams that could have been easily confused with being drugged by aliens. i just thought i was dreaming about doing some unknown drug. everything was black and i couldn't move a muscle in my body...luckily no probbing
I've read quite a bit about people doing DMT and getting abducted...kind of makes me want to try it(if i haven't already)
 
No- i don't think that DMT is linked to alien abduction, though Terence mckenna was convinced all UFO sightings were manifestations of an external part of the psyche, John Lily called it ECCO. I think the sensation of otherness comes from true habitation of others in other dimensions- pervading yours. Or contact with licing mitochondria or neurotransmitters.

If its accepted that plants communicate via pheremones; chemical chatter; why can't molecules? Psilocybes which grow in tryptamine rich habiatas ie. phalaris grasslands have shown to increase psilocin content, even mushroom strains implanted there. They are "talking" to each other, albeit in a wordless, but grammatical way. What i'm saying is, for me, I see the feeling of otherness bought about by DMTspice to be a sensing of the true alien, cognizant, living molecule, communicating once agsgin worlessly- this time, visually. No aliens, in my opinion Anyway-8) :)

I don't think DMT so much inspires these alien trips, moreso all the memes surrounding DMT. While there are stories of spacemen and heavenly bodies in Amazonian shamanism (excuse the broad use) using DMT, the theme seems much more common in western, or American trips specifically. I recently had a massive smoke of acacia obustifolia extract- the world, after typically spreading, oscillating and descending through increasingly tight colored Pythagorean spirals, became, to me a sandwich. Yep, I was bread, and to make contact with my girlfriend (who appeared to be a raspberry jam) I had to spread her on to my new bread body. Pretty profound hey? And I still saw God. %)
 
dankstersauce said:
wierd. I never knew DMT sometimes makes a buzzing noise heard/felt. can DMT be found in a liquid form? one time i got sold *acid* that totally was something other than LSD. kinda of off topic just wondering.
Click to expand...

DMT cant really be 'found' in liquid form and you would never be sold it i'd say, unless you were in the dark amazon one night and a witch doctor traded your soul for it.... Seriuosly you can't "eat" DMT and feel effect without cosuming a MAOI, which you'd be hard pressed to mistakenly do. Adultered blottere does exist, just never with DMT.


Is anyone else paranoid about their wording at the moment? IMO, I am....
Click to expand...
 
I don't know how much faith I put into Rick Straussman's theories. Sounds like he had issues with some of his research and associates as well.

Also, could you provide a reference for the elevated brain levels of DMT during REM stage sleep?
 
Trip inside all inside ~ 200 million year old nervous sytem sent haywire ~ well what do you think aliens ? or unplaceable feelings interpreted as best as possible within our current reference frame.
 
Well from what i've read about alien abductions and seen on serious tv documentaries, they also generally being restraind so they can't move while all these probing proceedures ae going on.

Now during REM sleep, the motor cortex is inhibited from initiating movement of the limbs etc so that the dreaming person cannot physically act out what's happening in their dreams and possibly inadvertantly injure themselves. I can't remember exactly which structure(s) are actually directly in charge of the inhibition, but if you've ever watched an animal in REM sleep, their limbs twitch & jerk, but not in a coordinated way. Sleep paralysis is where such motor inhibition occurs not only in rem sleep, but in states of conciousness normally encountered when going from sleep to being totally awake. The sleep paralysis type symptoms are commonly encountered in descriptions of alien abduction.

Putting all those facts together does seem to imply (well to me anyway) that most cases of alien abduction are most probably a result of the bizzare ideation of REM sleep (everyone must have had at least one bizzare dream that stayed with them until they were fully awake) impacting on the normal, semi-concious waking state, all the time the system that inhibits movement of the limbs etc still being switched on. That would account for a lot of the features of alien abductions as having been misinterpretations of a poorley co-ordinated emergence from REM sleep.

Where DMT comes into it, re the bigger picture, I can only guess at, but serotonogic and dopaminergic systems are in opposition in some parts of the brain, and dopamine one of the main neurotransmitters controlling wakefulness in the ascending reticular activating system, sooo DMT's agonist activity at some 5HT receptor subtypes migh just extend the time between sleep and fully concious (and I've seen that described as being a dissociated state. (god I can remember next to bog all about the anatomy of the brain and trying to doesn't half give me a headache!)

I said it was a guess, not a good guess!
 
Hynagogic hallucinations- which are what essentially? I love trying to extend the period of falling asleep, filled with utter fantasy, but impossible to remember.
 
The important part is that DMT can possibly be released endogenously from the pineal gland, which would explain sudden alien abductions. The striking correlation between accounts of abduction and the experiences of DMT-injected users seems far too similar for coincidence..
 
I will dig up the article with the reference about rem sleep and dmt asap.

Interesting topic isnt it??
 
I find all of it quite interesting, though I don't put too much faith in some of the theories I read. I really didn't care for Straussman's book.

I would definitely like to read up on any good research that shows elevated levels of DMT during active dreaming. Also if you know of any other books or compilations of documents or musings on the topic, I'd be interested in reading those as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top