The Big and Dandy Endogenous Psychedelics Thread (mega-merged)!

[swilow]

The important part is that DMT can possibly be released endogenously from the pineal gland, which would explain sudden alien abductions. The striking correlation between accounts of abduction and the experiences of DMT-injected users seems far too similar for coincidence..

The striking correlation between experimental clinical setting, using DMT, and achieving an abduction style trip, where real world phenomena of doctors, nurses, machinery became transfigured into aliens, starships etc is pretty striking too, wouln't you say? Rick Strassmans book, which basicaly 'validated' this DMT/alien idea is so flawed- he basically suffered from the worst trait a researcher could, forgetting their own role in determining set outcomes.

 

[illusion25]

i enjoyed the book "the spirit molecule"
But ia also can see how the setting that strassman had people in would effect thier trip.
Setting is a major factor for trips. Sometimes can have more influence than the drug itself.
tim leary talks about "power of suggestion" in his book high priest and i have seen how greatly this can determine ones experence.

If its accepted that plants communicate via pheremones; chemical chatter; why can't molecules? Psilocybes which grow in tryptamine rich habiatas ie. phalaris grasslands have shown to increase psilocin content, even mushroom strains implanted there. They are "talking" to each other, albeit in a wordless, but grammatical way. What i'm saying is, for me, I see the feeling of otherness bought about by DMTspice to be a sensing of the true alien, cognizant, living molecule, communicating once agsgin worlessly- this time, visually. No aliens, in my opinion Anyway

i agree with this.

Trip inside all inside ~ 200 million year old nervous sytem sent haywire ~ well what do you think aliens ? or unplaceable feelings interpreted as best as possible within our current reference frame

i also agree with this.

many different ways to look at "what really happens"

I guess each experience is subjective and relative.

I have also heard some mentions about dmt being released during REM. joe rogan talked about it. Some references would be nice to have. some research.


there is so much more to learn and know. sometimes i find myself feeling like i need to "catch up" on all the knowledge these days.
I percieve the acceleration of knowledge moving faster and becoming more universal available

 

[egor]

To be honest, I have never read Rick Strassman's book. The problem with trying to accurately report studies of this vareity are the results will always be stilted twards the specific beliefs of the people studied. Some see aliens, some see god, some see the void, etc.

 

[winter-owned]

I don't think there's a link between them but I definately think the fact that the two experiences are described so similarly should tell us something about one of them... but what?

 

[fizzacyst]

...

If its accepted that plants communicate via pheremones; chemical chatter; why can't molecules? Psilocybes which grow in tryptamine rich habiatas ie. phalaris grasslands have shown to increase psilocin content, even mushroom strains implanted there. They are "talking" to each other, albeit in a wordless, but grammatical way. What i'm saying is, for me, I see the feeling of otherness bought about by DMTspice to be a sensing of the true alien, cognizant, living molecule, communicating once agsgin worlessly- this time, visually. No aliens, in my opinion Anyway-8)

...

What does this mean? I don't understand what you are getting at. If a fungus that produces 4-ho-dmt is transplanted into an area that is rich in an immediate precursor, DMT, then of course they are going to have higher psilocin content (barring some mechanism that limits this production). They are breaking down the dead plant matter that contains the DMT (and probably other precursor material) and using it.

How is this "talking" to each other in a wordless but grammatical way?

Are you asking why inanimate matter (molecules) cannot communicate with other inanimate matter? I don't get it.

 

[egor]

I don't know how much faith I put into Rick Straussman's theories. Sounds like he had issues with some of his research and associates as well.

Also, could you provide a reference for the elevated brain levels of DMT during REM stage sleep?

Here is one piece of info. I will get you more tommorrow. I'm fucking tired.


FROM: Banchanida.com/brain/dreamvision.html
Serotonin has also been known for some time to play a role in sleep regulation. Numerous recent findings specifically implicate the 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 receptors in regulating sleep (Pastel et al. 1993; Sommerfelt et al. 1993, Tortella et al. 1989; Sharpley et al. 1994, 1990; Dijk et al. 1989; Kirov et al. 1995; Seifritz et al. 1996; Loas 1991). Sleep studies monitoring the effects of selective 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 agonists and antagonists administration in humans and laboratory animals have had impressive findings. It has been shown that the post-synaptic stimulation of 5HT1A receptors suppress REM sleep and increase slow wave (NREM) sleep in humans and laboratory animals (Seifritz et al. 1996; Loas 1991). Additionally, recent evidence establishes that antagonists at the 5HT2 receptors caused identical disruptions in sleeping pattern (Pastel et al. 1993; Sommerfelt et al. 1993, Tortella et al. 1989; Sharpley et al. 1994, 1990; Dijk et al. 1989; Kirov et al. 1995). In other words, when the relative activation of 5-HT2 to 5-HT1 was reduced, REM sleep (where the longest and most vivid dreams take place) was suppressed. Therefore, the relative activation of 5HT2 pathways compared to other 5HT pathways is implicated in REM sleep activation. The subjective experience of dreaming is likely a result of that activation, much like the pathway responsible for the effects of entheogenic drugs.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Rick Strassmans book, which basicaly 'validated' this DMT/alien idea is so flawed- he basically suffered from the worst trait a researcher could, forgetting their own role in determining set outcomes.

Unfortunately that seems a lot more common in research involving psychedelics than you'd get in most other drug/psychological testing. I feel it's down to the way the experience instills a 'psychedelic evangelism' in people afterwards and just because they're researchers it doesn't mean that they're impervious to such things (although they should have their methods assessed & critiqued by a non-psychedelically enthused fellow researcher before they even start, with monitoring of their behaviour as much as the test subjects

 

[elfdancer]

Hynagogic hallucinations- which are what essentially? I love trying to extend the period of falling asleep, filled with utter fantasy, but impossible to remember.

My mind is filled with the most beautiful music just before I black out, every night. That's how I know sleep is imminent. I can barely remember any of it in particular, much less play it...

 

[Trogdor]

I seem to recall reading something about a link between endogenous dmt and schizophrenia. I don't recall what it was exactly, but I have a relative who both is schizophrenic, and claims to have been abducted twice at very young ages.

The connection between dmt and alien abduction is something that's been on my mind for quite some time.

 

[Dondante]

Hynagogic hallucinations- which are what essentially? I love trying to extend the period of falling asleep, filled with utter fantasy, but impossible to remember.

I think these abductions are probably some kind of extreme hypnogogic hallucination. And sleep paralysis would fit the bill as well. Here are some common characteristics of hypnogogic hallucinations from wikipedia.

Most common

Vividness
Impending doom
Falling sensation
Fear

Common

Sensing a "presence" (often malevolent)
Pressure/weight on body (especially the chest or back).
A sensation of not being able to breathe
Impending sense of doom/death

Fairly common

Auditory sensations (often footsteps or indistinct voices, or pulsing noises). Auditory sensations which are described as noise instead of sensations of distinct or comprehensible sounds, are often described to be similar to auditory sensations caused by Nitrous Oxide by persons who have experienced both.
Visual sensations such as lights, people or shadows moving around the room

Less common

Floating sensations (often described as out-of-body experiences)
Seamless transition into fully immersive lucid dreaming, also associated with out-of-body experiences
Tactile sensations (such as a hand touching or grabbing)

Putting all those facts together does seem to imply (well to me anyway) that most cases of alien abduction are most probably a result of the bizzare ideation of REM sleep (everyone must have had at least one bizzare dream that stayed with them until they were fully awake) impacting on the normal, semi-concious waking state, all the time the system that inhibits movement of the limbs etc still being switched on. That would account for a lot of the features of alien abductions as having been misinterpretations of a poorley co-ordinated emergence from REM sleep.

Where DMT comes into it, re the bigger picture, I can only guess at, but serotonogic and dopaminergic systems are in opposition in some parts of the brain, and dopamine one of the main neurotransmitters controlling wakefulness in the ascending reticular activating system, sooo DMT's agonist activity at some 5HT receptor subtypes migh just extend the time between sleep and fully concious (and I've seen that described as being a dissociated state. (god I can remember next to bog all about the anatomy of the brain and trying to doesn't half give me a headache!)

I said it was a guess, not a good guess!

From what I understand, monoaminergic systems are predominant during the day (with cholinergic systems being slightly less active). Sleep results in a drastic decrease in both systems bottoming out in Stage IV sleep. During REM sleep, the cholinergic system becomes active once again almost to the levels found in the waking state. I think any stimulation of the reticular activation system would cause immediate waking and desynchronization of the EEG. Serotonin, dopamine, and histamine also cause wakefulness, although perhaps some radical imbalance could leave the person asleep, while having some very realistic hallucinations. I really don't know.

I'm not sure how 5HT agonists would extend the time between sleep and fully conscious, but I'm interested. I highly doubt that DMT plays a role in alien abduction, but I do think that weird sleep phenomena definitely do. Hypnogogic hallucinations/sleep paralysis or the poorly coordinated emergence from REM sleep are the best bets IMO.

 

[Xorkoth]

Most common

Vividness
Impending doom
Falling sensation
Fear

Common

Sensing a "presence" (often malevolent)
Pressure/weight on body (especially the chest or back).
A sensation of not being able to breathe
Impending sense of doom/death

Fairly common

Auditory sensations (often footsteps or indistinct voices, or pulsing noises). Auditory sensations which are described as noise instead of sensations of distinct or comprehensible sounds, are often described to be similar to auditory sensations caused by Nitrous Oxide by persons who have experienced both.
Visual sensations such as lights, people or shadows moving around the room

Less common

Floating sensations (often described as out-of-body experiences)
Seamless transition into fully immersive lucid dreaming, also associated with out-of-body experiences
Tactile sensations (such as a hand touching or grabbing)

Interesting... I've experienced most of those things within 3 hypnagogic visions I had within the past few months. Two of them are in my two most recent trip reports in the TR forum. Very interesting... I've also experienced sleep paralysis for up to a few minutes on a number of occasions throughout my life.

 

[Dondante]

^Have you ever experienced a false awakening? This is by far the weirdest sleep phenomenon I've experienced and it's only happened once. I've had sleep paralysis probably 4 or 5 times, but one time, I felt it coming on and just let it go ... didn't try to fight it. Noises kept getting louder and louder, until I decided I had to get out of this state. So I strained just to try and move a finger, which I finally did after a lot of effort. I forced myself up out of bed and walked to the kitchen, still kind of in a daze and I felt like something wasn't quite right (I remember this distinctly). Then suddenly I was transported back to my bed, and caught in a fit of sleep paralysis once again. This time I broke out of it and realized that I'd never woken up and walked to my kitchen in the first place. It was eerie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening

 

[egor]

^Have you ever experienced a false awakening? This is by far the weirdest sleep phenomenon I've experienced and it's only happened once. I've had sleep paralysis probably 4 or 5 times, but one time, I felt it coming on and just let it go ... didn't try to fight it. Noises kept getting louder and louder, until I decided I had to get out of this state. So I strained just to try and move a finger, which I finally did after a lot of effort. I forced myself up out of bed and walked to the kitchen, still kind of in a daze and I felt like something wasn't quite right (I remember this distinctly). Then suddenly I was transported back to my bed, and caught in a fit of sleep paralysis once again. This time I broke out of it and realized that I'd never woken up and walked to my kitchen in the first place. It was eerie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening

That would hapen to me pretty often when I was using gbl as a sleep aid.

 

[Xorkoth]

I experienced a really dramatic series of false awakenings once when I was high on cannabis and took some kratom, and then laid down in my bed, waiting until a slightly later time before I took some DOC that night.

I suddenly decided to get up and go downstairs to get a drink of water and measure out the DOC. This all was felt completely real in every way. I got up and started downstairs, and halfway down, I was suddenly back in my bed again. So I got up again, got all the way downstairs, then was suddenly back halfway up the stairs, then back in my bed again. So, realizing now that I was actually dreaming waking up, I got up again and went down to the fridge and started pouring some water, when I was suddenly at the bottom of the stairs again, then halfway up, then back in my bed. This process repeated, snapping back through each successive step in the exact same places each time, until I finally managed to measure out the DOC, at which point I snapped back through every step and woke up on my bed with sleep paralysis more intense than any I'd ever had before. I had a tremendous pressure on my chest that made it hard to breathe. I couldn't move any muscle at all, even blick my eyes. This went on for a few minutes... strangely my eyes never got painfully dried out. Then suddenly I could move again. I warily went downstairs to get a drink and meaure my DOC, just exactly like I had done in my series of "dreams", and this time apparently I was actually awake. I then took the DOC and had my most profound DOC experience to date.

This occurrence was the most vividly I have ever dreamed. Each time I was fully conscious and fully convinced that that time, I was actually awake.

 

[e1evene1even]

The Big and Dandy endogenous DMT discussion thread (mega-merged)!

I just re-read this description by Gopi Krishna of his initial Kundalini arousal (in 1937), and to me, it seems almost identical to a DMT/5-MeO-DMT experience that I thought I would post it to see what others thought.

There was a sound like thunder or like a waterfall in my ear, and it grew louder and louder. At the same time, I began to expand. I cannot describe exactly what I mean by this, but it seemed that my consciousness was now gaining a wider and wider space, and I was leaving my body behind and projecting myself, all around in the universe. My body grew dimmer and dimmer, and I hardly hear any noises coming from the street, I remained totally engrossed in the vision that was unfolding before me.

It was the vision of a silvery luster, alive, living, vibrant with life, conscious and spread all around me. The small self that was "I" seemed to become like a point of awareness, watching this great personality that had now developed and seemed to encompass the whole universe. I was like a small cork floating in an ocean of consciousness, aware of the whole surface at every point of the compass. I felt myself expanding more and more, and this expansion was attended by a happiness that is not possible to describe. I was in a state of jubilation, happiness, and elation that I had never experience in my life before that time. It was an incredible spectacle, and I was completely baffled as to what had happened to me.

What I perceived at the height of the experience was an ocean of consciousness, an infinitely extended area of awareness which made me feel as if I were spread everywhere, as if my body had been replaced by a bright ethereal mantle of light that accompanied me everywhere. I saw myself floating in a lustrous world of being in which the material world had lost its tangibility. Only pure consciousness persisted everywhere, with an overwhelming sense of rapture impossible to describe.

In a 1970 lecture entitled "The Biological Basis for Religion and Genius" put forward an interesting thesis, which makes quite a bit of sense to me.

In every form of life, the production of nerve and psychic energy is constantly going on to feed the brain and the nervous system, although the manner in which this is effected is yet not known to science. What I affirm is that the process of evolution leads to the production of a more potent form of those biochemical substances that act as fuel for psychic energy in its various forms and that these processes can be accelerated.

In an infinitesimal dose, lysergic acid diethylamide, popularly known as LSD, can create a revolution in consciousness and may even lead in rare cases to insanity, an apparently incredible performance for such a minute quantity. It would be ridiculous to contend that the most elaborate chemical laboratory on earth, the human body, cannot readily manufacture a substance of this nature under the influence of evolutionary processes active in it. Scientists cannot trace what happens to LSD when it is in the body but can recognize its action by its results. In this analogy, it is east to imagine that the body can manufacture a substance so subtle that it cannot be detected either, and yet so potent that in the form of radiation it can raise one's consciousness to such higher levels of cognition that other planes of existence and other orders of being come into the range of perception.

So what do you guys think? Could some endogenous psychedelic like DMT be the cause of this experience? Is it possible as Gopi suggests, that such substances can be a biological basis for not only the religious/spiritual impulse in man, but also other forms of intellectual and creative genius?

 

[Xorkoth]

I have often wondered this. However, I can be of no help in determining whether or not it's true.

I can say that you're right, the experiences (especially the first) really do sound like DMT, or some sort of tryptamine psychedelic.

 

[e1evene1even]

actually the first quote is all one experience.

The hypothesis in the second quote could be a reasonable theory of how certain mystics and yogis appear to be in a psychedelic state constantly.

For those interested in spiritual and mental transformation, the life of Gopi Krishna provides in my opinion, one of the most fascinating contemporary examples.

 

[squerll]

I think most eastern mystic and yogis have to alter their bodies over time to achieve and live in these states. On a subtle level they open energy channels that are dormant in most people, which opens awareness in their minds. Physically they open channels that blood circulates through. So maybe on a physical level the new channels that are open could pick up and create new chemicals in the body?
Maybe I don’t know, I just classify it as magic because it cannot be explained.
I have wondered about chemicals in the human body before. It seems like some will never be discovered because they are so fragile if they left the body they would turn into something else, and like that guy said in such small amounts that they would be virtually untraceable.

 

[squerll]

I decided to read the Gopi Krishna Kundalini book after seen this thread. I made it though about 2/3 of it I skipped a few sections like his childhood and the last part.

I must say it is the most I have every read of an Indian religious autobiography most of them have way too much dogma and mental masturbation. This was pretty free of most of that.

It had a nice down to earth description of the religious culture of India. Interesting psychological angles of a mans battle with insanity. It kind of reminded me a little of Zen and the art of motorcycle matianance. But I never thought a book could contain that much whining.

Interesting read.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It is possible of course, but, I would be more confident in the thesis that there are multiple types of neural mechanisms for precipitating mystical experiences.

This is somewhat close to what I'm studying right now so I'm going to get back to you on it with a more final answer.

Peace and Love,
S_S