The Bad Trip: Experiences of Infinite Solitude and Terror

[sinisterbotanist]

OP, according to much Eastern Philosophy that is more or less what they believe about the nature of the Universe.

Although they consider it a beautiful thing. Like a graceful dance. If you really want to come to terms with this experience I think perhaps you should try studying about said Eastern Philosophies starting with Hindu and Buddhism.

No, it is similar for sure but it is not the same. My experience, at least. It's not as if I'm experiencing a "normal" psychedelic experience and I can't come to terms with it. I've felt the joy and beauty of being one with the universe on mushrooms, but this earlier negative experience still impacts my non-tripping life with panic attacks. There's no way multiple cultures would base their beliefs on a state as terrifying as this (well, that's only partially true). I understand Hinduism and Buddhism. I've read and listened to a lot of Alan Watts. And all sorts of Daoist literature. In Aldous Huxley's Heaven and Hell, he writes about the positive visionary experience which is basically like satori, and the negative visionary experience, which some psychonauts and schizophrenics encounter. In the commentary for the trip report I posted at the bottom of the first post, it is suggested there is a faulty paradigm for the way which Westerners use psychedelics. How could Huxley use mescaline and be in a state of bliss while the same material could send William Braden to a state of existential terror? They each understood eastern thought and mysticism, yet they eventually had different attitudes to psychedelics altogether. And consider the peyote tribes. They do not encounter the negative visionary state or HPPD.

It's not as I'm resistant to becoming one with the universe. There's nowhere else to be!

& getting a bit into the "dancing" thing, when you're dancing, you're completely with it, you're not pondering ontological or existential issues, you're having a dandy time! What we are doing with all of these talk is (in Watts' words) putting legs on a snake.


I'm thinking that maybe the only the to do is to just step out. That place exists right alongside the place of birds and squirrels and simple pleasures, I just have to choose to be with that place. That is Alexander Shulgin's advice. If anyone has a copy of PiHKAL sitting around, I recommend you read the chapter "Crisis" to get an idea of what I experienced.

 

[Ismene]

But for someone who is used to driving in that kind of situation (after ingesting Psychedelics), I would think they would drive better than someone who hadn't.

No, I think it affects your physical co-ordination and attention span too much to drive while high.

I once played pool with someone who was real drunk. He couldn't even hit the cue ball. I was beating him easily, to say the least. Then he smoked a joint of Marijuana. Now he was not only able to hit the cue ball - he started winning and then won the game.

But you don't think people are better at pool when they're high tho?

 

[Ismene]

I understand Hinduism and Buddhism.

Do you find them similar to psychedelics? One of Hinduisms basic precepts is that there is a caste of people known as the "untouchables" who are utterly worthless and unclean. Kinda like Adolf Hitler's thinking.

The Tibetan buddhist monks ran a feudal system of slavery for a thousand years in Tibet - if a slave dared pinch a goat from one of these "enlightened" monks they would gouge his eye out and then cut his hand off.

I put psychedelics as being superior to all man-made religions like this.

I've read and listened to a lot of Alan Watts

Nice guy and he wrote some interesting books but he did drink himself to death so how enlightened he was I'm not sure.

 

[folding_space]

I've read and listened to a lot of Alan Watts[/I]

Nice guy and he wrote some interesting books but he did drink himself to death so how enlightened he was I'm not sure.

Alan Watts never claimed to be enlightened.

As for the way we use psychedelics in the West, if your goal is to have a certain type of narrow, "spiritual" experience then viewing them as a sacrament and controlling your set and setting accordingly is probably the way to go about it. I, for one, prefer to leave things more open-ended and see what happens. This makes for much more interesting and intellectually stimulating trips than just rehashing someone's drug-induced "visionary" fantasy from 4,000 years ago, but it does leave the door open to more negative experiences as well.

 

[Rorthron]

Thank you very much. With your ayahuasca experience, were you concerned about facing the dreadful feeling again? Were you with a guide? How did you transform? Do you think MDMA would be useful? Or a full on assault with LSD? I feel like a "full on assault" would not be useful at all..

Actually I was a bit apprehensive, but not enough so that I would ran into a bad trip. For, as I told you, I had faced the experience, in all its aspects while sober. And instead of wishing for forgetfulness, I struggled to put it in front of me. Yet, Ayahuasca was the factor that nailed it down in my psyche and helped me surpass it for good.

I have no experience on MDMA, but that substance has been used for deep healing, so I guess that would be a possibility.

I would forget LSD until you have sorted it out consciously.

Best of luck!

 

[Ismene]

Alan Watts never claimed to be enlightened.

None of them do tho do they - they just suggest that by following their methods you might become enlightened one day far in the future..presumably when you've purchased all of their books. Watts did say he'd got the message and hung up the phone tho didn't he - the only trouble was the message he appeared to have recieved was "Drink 3 bottles of whiskey a day"

This makes for much more interesting and intellectually stimulating trips than just rehashing someone's drug-induced "visionary" fantasy from 4,000 years ago

Doesn't have to even be 4000 years ago - when I was just starting out tripping I began noticing I was seeing everything I'd been reading in the Terence Mckenna book the previous night. That's when I tried to tune out of Terence and just get my own freak on.

 

[somaeye]

No, I think it affects your physical co-ordination and attention span too much to drive while high.

I once played pool with someone who was real drunk. He couldn't even hit the cue ball. I was beating him easily, to say the least. Then he smoked a joint of Marijuana. Now he was not only able to hit the cue ball - he started winning and then won the game.

But you don't think people are better at pool when they're high tho?

Yes I do think that - although to me it's a waste of time to be playing pool when you're in the Presence of God (Psychedelics).

I used to know people who were "pinball wizards" who would smoke Marijuana and play pinball. They would rack up free game after free game. It was like in the song from "Tommy" (the Who). They told me they would let the Marijuana play the game and they practically weren't even watching.

 

[Ismene]

^^

Yeah but do we actually have any evidence other than your mates somaeye? God bless them but just because a stoner says he can play pinball better after smoking a doobie it's not what you'd call scientific is it mate.

The british army tried giving LSD to troops to see how it affected performance. There's a famous film of a british army unit sent out to do simple tasks after taking LSD - after an hour they are unable to even advance in a straight line or carry their rifles. After a couple of hours they are all sat on their arses laughing and one is climbing a tree to feed bread to the birds.

 

[somaeye]

You are probably not to much fun to trip with. I don't want to party with you.

Well, I don't go to parties. I also don't "trip".

"Tripping" is for people who think that Psychedelics are dead metal vehicles that take you on a voyage (trip) to god. They think that Psychedelics are a "short-cut to enlightenment" (Ken Kesey?).

My belief and understanding is that Psychedelics are Living Beings. They are not only Conscious Beings, They are the essence of consciousness - Omniscient.

The only "trip" involved is the journey that They take you on to meet Them. It's more like our bodies are the "dead metal vehicles" that They use to transport us to Them. (The amount of life our bodies have is like being dead, compared to Them.) There is no "short-cut". If you "hang up the phone", then you have failed to receive the Message.

"Didn't you realize that you were God's temple and that the Spirit of God was living among you?" -- 1st Corinthians, 3,16

 

[folding_space]

Well, I don't go to parties. I also don't "trip".

"Tripping" is for people who think that Psychedelics are dead metal vehicles that take you on a voyage (trip) to god. They think that Psychedelics are a "short-cut to enlightenment" (Ken Kesey?).

My belief and understanding is that Psychedelics are Living Beings. They are not only Conscious Beings, They are the essence of consciousness - Omniscient.

The only "trip" involved is the journey that They take you on to meet Them. It's more like our bodies are the "dead metal vehicles" that They use to transport us to Them. (The amount of life our bodies have is like being dead, compared to Them.) There is no "short-cut". If you "hang up the phone", then you have failed to receive the Message.

"Didn't you realize that you were God's temple and that the Spirit of God was living among you?" -- 1st Corinthians, 3,16

I think you need to take less drugs...

 

[sinisterbotanist]

I think you need to take less drugs...

yuuuuup

I've read and listened to a lot of Alan Watts

Nice guy and he wrote some interesting books but he did drink himself to death so how enlightened he was I'm not sure.

You really think there are varying degrees of enlightenment? We are all human and that's really all I care about. Goddammit off-topic shit, I have no interest in enlightenment in the first place. "Seeking" it won't make me a better painter, or get me a house. It just bores and confuses me, and I could be spending time enjoying myself by doing something I like! An ancient Daoist (Joni Mitchell) once said, "To see teenagers sitting around trying to solve the problems of the world, I figured, all things considered, I'd rather be dancing." I know I'm contributing to the off-topicness but if you would, please take your psychedelic/enlightenment discussion elsewhere.

Actually I was a bit apprehensive, but not enough so that I would ran into a bad trip. For, as I told you, I had faced the experience, in all its aspects while sober. And instead of wishing for forgetfulness, I struggled to put it in front of me. Yet, Ayahuasca was the factor that nailed it down in my psyche and helped me surpass it for good.

I have no experience on MDMA, but that substance has been used for deep healing, so I guess that would be a possibility.

I would forget LSD until you have sorted it out consciously.

Best of luck!

Thanks. From what I've read about MDMA, it seems like it's just what I would like to experience. I would use it in a spiritual context so I can concentrate on my own emotions and such. I now like to follow the tripping guidelines psychedelic psychotherapist use. Serial pictures of yourself and family, music, nature, reflection, understanding, catharsis. Sasha Shulgin gave MDMA (snake-oil!) to a friend who was having a hard time with integrating a difficult LSD experience, and he was healed. I've always wanted to use 2C-B as well. I've read of it being able to bring you "into" your own body and that sounds magical to me, especially since I don't enjoy transcending reality.

 

[Ismene]

Goddammit off-topic shit, I have no interest in enlightenment in the first place. "Seeking" it won't make me a better painter, or get me a house. It just bores and confuses me

Oh right, I thought you were talking about Alan Watts as tho he was someone you wanted to emulate.

From what I've read about MDMA, it seems like it's just what I would like to experience.

It might be, it might not be. Reading about a drug you've never tried is like reading about fucking - it's always better to have the experience rather than read about it.

 

[lastest]

I certainly can't imagine having any sort of ontological crisis on MDMA. A good dose provides the feeling that everything is exactly right with yourself and with everything around you. Pure perfection in everything you see, think and feel. Neutral sensory input like the way your shoes feel on your feet becomes intensely pleasurable. Music is... indescribable. There are mild psychedelic aspects which are fascinating and enjoyable, because every damn thing is fascinating and enjoyable on MDMA. Even confusion feels great.

You have to pay for it with the comedown of course, which isn't bad at all from a single dose, but can be appallingly unpleasant if you redose more than once.

 

[Brayn]

For me, personally, MDMA has been great for about 5 or 6 hours and then I experience 2 days of regret and depression, hating my life, hating myself, hating my choices. I'll admit though, these experiences were with the wrong people in the wrong places and wrong mindset. And of course there's a pretty good chance "something else" was in these pills and powders, maybe no MDMA at all.

I've considered perhaps getting into it again in combination with a decent dose of mushrooms in order to artificially push that mushroom experience to a positive space, but I may be better off just improving my set and setting without chemical positivity.

 

[somaeye]

Goddammit off-topic shit, I have no interest in enlightenment in the first place.

If you have no interest in enlightenment, then you have no interest in Psychedelics, because enlightenment is what Psychedelics are all about. Even Leary, Kesey, Ginsberg, et. al., knew that.

What you are doing is going to meet God and saying, "ok - just don't talk to me about the spirit."

 

[somaeye]

I think you need to take less drugs...

yuuuuup

I guess the Native American Church, which has over 100,000 members, needs to "take less drugs" also since they believe that Peyote is a Deity and say prayers to Peyote. Also, the Mexican Nahua curanderos need to "take less drugs" since they call Psilocybin "Teonanacatl" which means "God's Flesh".

Or the Hindus need to "take less drugs" since they believe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_spiritual_use_of_cannabis): "Wise drinking of bhang, according to religious rites, is believed to cleanse sins, unite one with Shiva and avoid the miseries of hell in the after-life. In contrast, foolish drinking of bhang without rites is considered a sin." (Bhang is made of Marijuana.)

"Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A person ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks their own condemnation. " 1 Corinthians, 11,27

 

[Ismene]

I guess the Native American Church, which has over 100,000 members, needs to "take less drugs" also since they believe that Peyote is a Deity and say prayers to Peyote.

Seeing as it's a church wouldn't you expect it's members to be religious tho?

Also, the Mexican Nahua curanderos need to "take less drugs" since they call Psilocybin "Teonanacatl" which means "God's Flesh".

That was the translation that the early spanish gave to it - no-ones sure if it's accurate or not.

Or the Hindus need to "take less drugs" since they believe

But why do you need to combine God with taking psychedelics unless you were brought up in the religion? If you arn't particularly religious then fuck religion.

You are your own church. Go to the temple within using the psychedelic of your choice. Don't follow any bullshit manmade religons. They arn't worthy of psychedelics.

 

[somaeye]

Also, the Mexican Nahua curanderos need to "take less drugs" since they call Psilocybin "Teonanacatl" which means "God's Flesh".

That was the translation that the early spanish gave to it - no-ones sure if it's accurate or not.

This is from "Teonanacatl: The Narcotic Mushroom of the Aztecs" by Richard Schultes.

"In the works of Serna, a very complete description of the use of "coloured mushrooms," quatlannamacatl, as a narcotic for divination is found: And it so happened that an Indian had come . .. bringing some of the coloured mushrooms which are gathered in the hills, and, with these, he had performed a great idolatry. But before explaining this (idolatry), I wish to explain the nature of the said mushrooms which, in the Mexican language, are called quatlannama- catl .. . these mushrooms were small and yellowish, and to collect them, the priests and all mnen, appointed as ministers for these impostures, went to the hills and re- mained almost the whole night in sermonizing and in superstitious praying. At dawn, when a certain little breeze which they know began to blow, they would gather them (the mushrooms), attributing to them deity. They have the same effect as ololiuqui and peyote, for when they are eaten or drunk, they intoxicate, depriving those who partake of them of their senses and making them believe a thousand absurdities.

 

[bunnyhentman]

Has anyone had a frightening ontological trip such as mine and continued using psychedelics to better their lives? I was thinking that maybe using a substance with less mind fuck, I would be able to explore the things I want to without encountering metaphysical crap. The obvious substance to try would be MDMA. I'd love to try 2C-B, but I've read an erowid report of someone having a bad trip similar to mine. I've heard of 2C-I being "down to earth" and that sounds so wonderful, but I still think it could go off into weirdness. Any advice or experiences would be much appreciated. Thanks.

The first bad trip I had was on 2c-b (after taking it hundreds of times) and I am sure it had nothing to do with the chemical and everything to do with my set and setting. Generally 2c-b in a public setting would have been fine for me, much easier than the 2 strong doses that set you off -- but my set was terrible, so there you go. Just as I was coming up I realized I really didn't want to be tripping in the situation I was in, and it was as if someone hit a switch and all the faces around me turned cold and evil, the music became hostile, panic overtook me. I'm saying this because avoiding a bad trip is not about finding the perfect chemical, it's about addressing the issue that triggered the bad trip.

Although it also sounds like you may not have taken what you thought you were taking. The cognitive dissonance of expecting to feel one way and then getting something very different could have influenced your dark thoughts? It's so important to allergy test new chemicals and always know your source.

Two books have that really been useful for me are The Secret Chief: Revealed, which you can read online here: http://www.maps.org/books/scr/noframes.html and James Fadiman's Psychedelic Explorers Guide. Although generally I go for more recreational trips, having some tactics for dealing with psychedelic emergencies and knowing more about the therapeutic process makes me feel more secure and consequently less likely to panic or have a bad experience (& also in a better position to help others).

 

[sinisterbotanist]

The first bad trip I had was on 2c-b (after taking it hundreds of times) and I am sure it had nothing to do with the chemical and everything to do with my set and setting. Generally 2c-b in a public setting would have been fine for me, much easier than the 2 strong doses that set you off -- but my set was terrible, so there you go. Just as I was coming up I realized I really didn't want to be tripping in the situation I was in, and it was as if someone hit a switch and all the faces around me turned cold and evil, the music became hostile, panic overtook me. I'm saying this because avoiding a bad trip is not about finding the perfect chemical, it's about addressing the issue that triggered the bad trip.

Although it also sounds like you may not have taken what you thought you were taking. The cognitive dissonance of expecting to feel one way and then getting something very different could have influenced your dark thoughts? It's so important to allergy test new chemicals and always know your source.

Two books have that really been useful for me are The Secret Chief: Revealed, which you can read online here: http://www.maps.org/books/scr/noframes.html and James Fadiman's Psychedelic Explorers Guide. Although generally I go for more recreational trips, having some tactics for dealing with psychedelic emergencies and knowing more about the therapeutic process makes me feel more secure and consequently less likely to panic or have a bad experience (& also in a better position to help others).

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I absolutely agree. It's quite obvious I would have had a bad trip. I'll make a list of the reasons.
Reasons why SinisterBotanist had a negative experience
-Probably wasn't even LSD, when I was expecting it to
-In public
-Probably would have wanted to be elsewhere while sober!
-Had a trip friend, but she was with her boyfriend, so I was the third wheel
-Always making sure I wasn't acting weird, in front of friends I didn't want to know I was tripping
yeah that was dumb

I have read The Secret Chief and I loooooove it. If I ever trip again, I will for sure model my trips after his therapeutic practice. I'd like to be in nature, in my garden for a while. I haven't read any of James Fadiman, though. I also like Myron Stolaroff's Thanatos to Eros. He talks about his use of psychedelics bringing him a permanent sense of inner peace. I'd like to learn to live with more contentment in my life. MDMA (er.. myself!) as my teacher.