The ANGRY thread v2

[Pagey]

Sorry to say this but.........

If you never been addicted to Gear, your view don't count for jack, I wouldn't comment on Quantum Theory‎ as I have no idea about it, follow my logic here folks?

Dunno if that was aimed at me, but I have been...?

 

[knock]

Sorry to say this but.........

If you never been addicted to Gear, your view don't count for jack, I wouldn't comment on Quantum Theory‎ as I have no idea about it, follow my logic here folks?

I understand the sentiment but it's not necessary that someone is directly affected by some condition, event, or state of affairs, to have a valid view on the subject, and in many cases the "bystander's" view is the preferred view:

- In a court of law, the body which decides the case is generally required to be uninvolved to ensure impartiality, and additionally they have no particular expertise, although they rely on expert advice in their decision-making.
- Medical professionals diagnose and treat an illness, and care for patients, without having suffered from the illness, and are usually better qualified than the patient to do so.
- Journalists usually reports on events which they are neither actively engaged in or directly affected by.
- and countless other examples I'm sure any of us can imagine.

You can argue that juries and doctors often make mistakes and journalists often write garbage, but their work is nevertheless essential to our society. But few would argue that the defendant or the victim in a criminal trial should decide guilt, or that a politician should be the primary source for information on their own activities, or that patients should generally prescribe their treatment.

Of course no-one appreciates the subjective experience of drug addiction more accurately and completely than the addict themselves*, no argument, but it's false reasoning to conclude that only insiders can have valid views.

And of course it's often the case that outsiders have incorrect and biased views, but it's not always so. There are ways and means of judging the quality of a point of view, criticising (or approving) a view on the basis of a judgement on the person who holds it, is a logical fallacy, "ad hominem".


(*And this is probably all you were saying, but I just rammed 50mg ethylphenidate up my ring so I needed to let off some surplus energy :D)

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I may know about racism and have what I think is an informed opinion on it but I wouldn't for one second pretend that I could empathise with the experience of an oppressed black population anywhere in the world. And it would be patronising and wrong of me to think I could personally intervene and take control of their situation for them because I think I am informed.

Let the junkies fix themselves.

 

[knock]

I may know about racism and have what I think is an informed opinion on it but I wouldn't for one second pretend that I could empathise with the experience of an oppressed black population anywhere in the world. And it would be patronising and wrong of me to think I could personally intervene and take control of their situation for them because I think I am informed.

Let the junkies fix themselves.

Yes, the people directly affected by a problem are best placed, and entitled, to seek a solution. But I think it's a mistake to detach ourselves from something just because we don't fit the profile of a "victim" or "sufferer", or indeed an "offender".

Example: all men have some responsibility to quench the culture that supports rape. I don't need to be a woman, or a rapist (or have the suppressed urge to rape), to tell a man that his behaviour towards, or attitude to, a woman needs to stop.

 

[parttime crackhead]

I may know about racism and have what I think is an informed opinion on it but I wouldn't for one second pretend that I could empathise with the experience of an oppressed black population anywhere in the world. And it would be patronising and wrong of me to think I could personally intervene and take control of their situation for them because I think I am informed.

Let the junkies fix themselves.

So your views on racism "don't count for jack"?

Everyone that hasn't been directly effected by racism should never bother their arse to talk about it then. Let the darkies deal with it.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Yes, the people directly affected by a problem are best placed, and entitled, to seek a solution. But I think it's a mistake to detach ourselves from something just because we don't fit the profile of a "victim" or "sufferer", or indeed an "offender".

Example: all men have some responsibility to quench the culture that supports rape. I don't need to be a woman, or a rapist (or have the suppressed urge to rape), to tell a man that his behaviour towards, or attitude to, a woman needs to stop.

And I don't need to be black to tell the white oppressor to stop. But to intervene, and take my revolutionary Trotskyist band of white brothers over to Sowetepulcosville to show the black man how Marxist scientific theory says we overcome racist oppression? Nah, that's bullshit.

Self-determination in everything. Tell that nasty rapist to stop by all means, but it won't solve the problem. The problem stems from the disempowerment of women through patriarchy and its structures. Ultimately women have to take that power back for themselves (which obviously is hard to see ever happening, so we'll always have rape) for the culture and psyche to adequately change.

Blacks have to take power for themselves, not be given it by the white man.

And junkies should be left to fix themselves rather than being forced to listen to specialist drug workers' whose only specialism may be an ability to follow a political agenda at work without even realising they are fucking doing it.

Erm...

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

So your views on racism "don't count for jack"?

Everyone that hasn't been directly effected by racism should never bother their arse to talk about it then. Let the darkies deal with it.

Don't think you're quite getting it PT but if it helps improve your Sunday feel free to keep misrepresenting my words.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

i know what you're trying to say Bodda. Ive never tried gear but i have been addicted to opiates/opioids for 18 months. When i ran out of odt and no more was available i felt the bleakest of depressions ive ever felt. However, as soon as i found a new source for opiates the depression lifted, despite the fact that i hadnt taken any new opiates, i just knew they were coming.

I suppose heroin is the King Pin of the opiate world, and users think non users dont have a clue. But I have heard many a gear user saying they prefered odt as the quality of gear they could get was so poor. Heroin may well be the one that leaves the greatest void when you leave it behind, but other opiates do that too, so people that use other opiates/opiods have some idea what its like IMO.

Pagey - have you tried anti depressants ? Im not sure if they could help a little in getting you through the immediate aftermath of leaving heroin behind. Some people say the PAWS lasts for six months or more, some only have it for a week or2, some have it come and go for years. Everyone reacts differently.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Sorry if that was a bit short PT. Look, I think (I may be wrong) Bodda was trying to make a point that you know jack shit, relatively, about protracted heroin addiction unless you've been there. I think that's fair comment. I can sympathise with the heroin addict but not empathise. And then I'm just making the point that drug services are run by people who largely have no experience but think they 'know' about drugs and how to 'help' (loaded term, are you following?) addicts.

Rapists and blacks were shit analogies. Blame me and knock.

 

[knock]

Sorry if that was a bit short PT. Look, I think (I may be wrong) Bodda was trying to make a point that you know jack shit, relatively, about protracted heroin addiction unless you've been there. I think that's fair comment. I can sympathise with the heroin addict but not empathise. And then I'm just making the point that drug services are run by people who largely have no experience but think they 'know' about drugs and how to 'help' (loaded term, are you following?) addicts.

Rapists and blacks were shit analogies. Blame me and knock.

Bodda's comment was fair according to that (most likely totally accurate) interpretation, but it was expressed as an extreme sweeping generalisation that I think is a bit counter-productive. That's why I piped up, and I think the "shit analogies" are actually fine analogies for countering that generalisation

 

[parttime crackhead]

Don't think you're quite getting it PT but if it helps improve your Sunday feel free to keep misrepresenting my words.

I do, I was simply disagreeing with Farmaz statement that you seemed to be agreeing with - "If you never been addicted to Gear, your view don't count for jack, I wouldn't comment on Quantum Theory‎ as I have no idea about it, follow my logic here folks?"

Sorry if that was a bit short PT. Look, I think (I may be wrong) Bodda was trying to make a point that you know jack shit, relatively, about protracted heroin addiction unless you've been there. I think that's fair comment. I can sympathise with the heroin addict but not empathise. And then I'm just making the point that drug services are run by people who largely have no experience but think they 'know' about drugs and how to 'help' (loaded term, are you following?) addicts.

Rapists and blacks were shit analogies. Blame me and knock.

I agree with that. I disagree with his original statement though. What Knock just said basically.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Bodda's comment was fair according to that (most likely totally accurate) interpretation, but it was expressed as an extreme sweeping generalisation that I think is a bit counter-productive. That's why I piped up, and I think the "shit analogies" are actually fine analogies for countering that generalisation

I think the nature of strong addictions are different and make those analogies less than perfect.

As for what Bodda said, "jack shit" is a street term, you're not meant to grab the OED and get offended by a literal interpretation. "But that nasty man said I know nothing and my life is worthless!". I know what he meant, as did MDB.

And I'd also argue a) it's not necessarily counter-productive and b) even if it is, ask yourself where such an attitude comes from. People aren't born arseholes saying deliberately counter-productive things. That goes against ego and logic. It's a reflection of the alienation and frustration of someone who lives in a constantly different world every single day of their lives and has to put up with people from another world saying they know more about it than him.

We can all have opinions about addiction. I'm more likely to listen to the addict than the average Sun reader though. We all draw the line somewhere, you follow?

Anyway, this is a lot of shit Farmaz is causing. Ban the cunt.

 

[knock]

I'm just a pedantic cunt, it's what I do! :D

edit: I'm being unfair to myself, I sincerely believe that it's better to be accurate and precise with words, as I think things do get misinterpreted and faulty ideas enter general consciousness by way of exaggeration and generalisation.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I'm just a pedantic cunt, it's what I do! :D

edit: I'm being unfair to myself, I sincerely believe that it's better to be accurate and precise with words, as I think things do get misinterpreted and faulty ideas enter general consciousness by way of exaggeration and generalisation.

Cool but you've also got to accept others aren't the same and terms get banded about that are reliant on context (who is saying them and why).

And to out pedantic you...if you want analogies, you have to use drug analogies. We exist outside of most of what others see as reality. So here's my drug analogy.

If you ain't used ketamine you don't know jack shit about the k-hole.

Or, if I'm in a k hole, whose words about will you put most weight on? Me? Or the stranger off the street who sees me staring zombie like, dribbling unable to move for 45 mins?

You can read a billion words about ketamine. If you ain't been there...

You can read a billion words about long term addiction. If you ain't been there...

Drugs bring a unique hand to the board.

I'll stop now, promise.

 

[knock]

Cool but you've also got to accept others aren't the same and terms get banded about that are reliant on context (who is saying them and why).

And to out pedantic you...if you want analogies, you have to use drug analogies. We exist outside of most of what others see as reality. So here's my drug analogy.

If you ain't used ketamine you don't know jack shit about the k-hole.

Or, if I'm in a k hole, whose words about will you put most weight on? Me? Or the stranger off the street who sees me staring zombie like, dribbling unable to move for 45 mins?

You can read a billion words about ketamine. If you ain't been there...

You can read a billion words about long term addiction. If you ain't been there...

Drugs bring a unique hand to the board.

I'll stop now, promise.

I'll stop now too, I don't have any argument with this, the drug user is the only one who knows exactly what the drug experience is like. But everyone, including non-users, has shared experience of some of the emotional states and thought processes which are involved, like obsession and sadness, and through language it's possible for users to give a hint of an idea about it to non-users. And by understanding the psychological and physiological processes that are involved in addiction, it is possible for a non-user to make some correct observations about a user's experience.

But yes, there's no explaining the psychedelic experience, it has to be experienced.

 

[Pagey]

Pagey - have you tried anti depressants ? Im not sure if they could help a little in getting you through the immediate aftermath of leaving heroin behind. Some people say the PAWS lasts for six months or more, some only have it for a week or2, some have it come and go for years. Everyone reacts differently.

I haven't no...I've been using xanax to deal with PAWS, problem being my script has now run out and I don't trust myself to get benzos online. I quit heroin about 3 and a half months ago and PAWS were starting to get manageable until I slipped last week and used for a few days, and that seems to have put me back on square 1...which is really doing my head in. PAWS are fucking evil
I'd rather not get onto anti-depressants though, it's just a matter of not slipping like this really...

 

[Dark Side]

The reason you lot hit the heroin and drugs in general is because life is meaningless, the only thing we live for is pleasure. At the end of the day thought and communication lead to all out misery in us. If we didnt have both life would be like one massive ecstasy roll. But because of evolution we have to deal with this sober state of being which in itself is insanity. Some people are happy with the day to day mundanities of life. us lot? Nah and we never will be

I got my self addicted to co co's, cant say im pissed off at anyone but myself for being such a tit. Even worse is i have landed myself a decent job last week so i cant really cold turkey

 

[swampdragon]

The reason you lot hit the heroin and drugs in general is because life is meaningless, the only thing we live for is pleasure. At the end of the day thought and communication lead to all out misery in us. If we didnt have both life would be like one massive ecstasy roll. But because of evolution we have to deal with this sober state of being which in itself is insanity. Some people are happy with the day to day mundanities of life. us lot? Nah and we never will be

Trolling, much? 8)

 

[Dark Side]

Im not trolling what so ever. What do you want me to say "Dont kill yourself peeps everything will be ok"

 

[parttime crackhead]

Why would you think he was trolling? I think that made a reasonable amount of sense.