The 2018 Trump Presidency thread

[JGrimez]

^ aren't you just blindly trusting and listening to those sources? it's seems like you gent bent when people do that but you're quite happy to do it yourself when it fits your narrative...

those quotes don't prove anything - they're just opinions...

alasdair

This is postmodernist deflection and failure to discuss the issue.
The CIA's actions prove these correct.
More importantly do you agree or disagree? What's your honest opinion of the CIA (and IC)?

 

[JGrimez]

Obama started many wars and killed untold amounts of people.

But Trump is different.,

Trump has started no new wars and de-escalated two major conflicts.

What are we judging the presidents' performances on?

 

[alasdairm]

This is postmodernist deflection and failure to discuss the issue.

you are 100% guilty of the same thing you get so bent out of shape about in others.

i'll try harder but, if you want people to stop annoying you by doing these things, start by not doing them yourself. be the change and all that...

alasdair

 

[spacejunk]

Obama started many wars and killed untold amounts of people.



Trump has started no new wars and de-escalated two major conflicts.

What are we judging the presidents' performances on?

De-escalated?

The post you replied to there is really quite brilliant and succint, and your reaponse is rather typical - ignore the interesting points and change the subject by making a shamelessly dishonest claim.

I think you know that presidents are judged on a huge range of "performance indicators", and trump fails in every single one.
The guy is a fucking dunce, and has done a shitload of harm.

I guess racists must love him though - he's advanced the cause of racist fuckwits and misogynists, transphobes and bigots of all kinds.
That's something he's 'achieved' - which is still not worthy of praise, because it's

A) not a good thing
and
B) not fucking difficult. It doesn't take a smart politician to pander to fear and ignorance.

Speaking of post-modernist deflections, don't you think it is silly to claim you can see the good things in trump's presidency, and that we are simply ignoring them?
This idea that one opinion is as valid as any other is pretty fucking postmodern, but it doesn't really stand up to analysis.

I mean, if someone has to lie and distort the truth in order to praise a president, their opinion isn't worth squat.

 

[JGrimez]

De-escalated?

NK/Syria

I think you know that presidents are judged on a huge range of "performance indicators", and trump fails in every single one.
The guy is a fucking dunce, and has done a shitload of harm.

Yeah so how many new wars has he started?
For myself personally that's a performance indicator, you are either stubbornly unwilling to accept this as a positive or you consider starting wars the sign of "a pretty good president".

 

[spacejunk]

the guy threatened to attack north korea on twitter.

they also went back on the iran deal, which has a number of really bad ramifications.
then there is all this shit with nato. and russia. and the EU.

trump has done massive damage to america's alliances - and america's diplomatic institutions worldwide.

trump has made the global politics a great deal less stable, and far more dangerous.

you've been told this by people here so many times, but you just ignore anything you don't agree with, and bullshit your way through counter arguments.

do you think you're going to change any minds with your posts here?
there are a lot of really negative stereotypes about trump supporters, and you don't challenge a single one of them.

gaslighting doesn't really work when you're trying to tell us trump is anything other than a dangerous embarrassment.


anyway, getting back to actually dicussing the topic - it's all starting to get interesting, because it gets clearer every day that trump is doomed.
he's probably the most hated man alive, as he should be - but it's not only the public he needs to worry about - he's making a lot of powerful enemies, and keeps digging a deeper and deeper hole for himself.

trump''s criminal ties are well-known, and he's been under investigation for a long time now.
i would he shocked if trump hasn't done anything seriously illegal - and more shocked still if the FBI haven't uncovered it.
i'm not a clinton fan or a supporter of anyone in american politics - so all the crap about bias is just nonsense.

trump is a known crook, and bhas been a truly disasterous president who has created a massive stock market bubble, nurtured division in american society and behaved like san obnoxious child on the world stage.
i'm not the kind of person that finds that sort of thing entertaining or amusing.

i mean, i personally don't have a problem with the USA losing power and influence globally - america is just another country, to me. some of my friends think trump is great because he's destroying america.
while i think that's true, but i refuse to support him in that endeavour, because i actually give a fuck about the people that live in the united states. trump doesn't give a fuck about anyone but trump.

so, it's almost entertaining to watch the old man act like he's guilty. to watch him squirm and talk himself into even deeper shit.

i think anyone still supporting trump after last week is deeply sus. not only that, they're missing the only entertaining part of trump's administration - his ungainly, undignified downfall.

one day people will remind trump supporters of the fixation they had on that man. the man who will be exposed as a fraud and a morally bankrupt charlatan - and probably a sex predator also.

i say "will be" exposed, because unlike most of the rusted-on trump devotees i've come across, i don't pretend to know what is going to happen - or what is happening behind closed doors (mueller's never had things leaked from his investigation - unlike the fucking president).

but i do know that where there's smoke there's fire. and it's not just from the dumpster fire of trash in the white house.

 

[JGrimez]

you've been told this by people here so many times, but you just ignore anything you don't agree with, and bullshit your way through counter arguments.

That's calling debating. I disagree with what you and you say and this is why.
And tbh I generally offer much more evidence when arguing a point. Most people do not know or choose to ignore the intricacies of some of these investigations and legal battles.
I'm open to anyone changing my mind with a solid argument and/or some new evidence. In fact I have changed my stance on a few things or learned stuff from reading things posted by people here I disagree with.

As for yourself, you rarely care to discuss the facts which is a shame. Your MO is ranting and insults.

trump has done massive damage to america's alliances - and america's diplomatic institutions worldwide.

Stop being so vague. If you're going to accuse someone of something then explain what actions they've taken to lead you to thinking a certain way.
To address this point, the US was already being taken advantage of before all this. Trump leveling the playing field and making things fairer for the US is not damaging alliances, and if that's the perception then they are not a true ally.

there are a lot of really negative stereotypes about trump supporters, and you don't challenge a single one of them.

Can you be more specific? Am I dumb, uneducated, racist, sexist etc? What have I said or done to lead you to these conclusions, am I simply in "Group A: Trump supporters"

gaslighting doesn't really work when you're trying to tell us trump is anything other than a dangerous embarrassment.

Trump obviously has inside help possibly with military intel. On his own he wouldn't have been able to beat the establishment and also dodge all of their attacks and attempted coup.
So you can support the movement of Trump (attacking corruption/deep state, securing borders, protecting America, improving economy) without actually supporting Trump as a person.

trump is a known crook, and bhas been a truly disasterous president who has created a massive stock market bubble

Trump created that?

so, it's almost entertaining to watch the old man act like he's guilty. to watch him squirm and talk himself into even deeper shit.

Not sure why you are so certain of this but Trump hasn't even been accused of a crime yet.

i think anyone still supporting trump after last week is deeply sus.

Are you referring to the Putin meeting? So because Trump didn't hypocritically provoke a nuclear superpower that makes him sus?

i say "will be" exposed, because unlike most of the rusted-on trump devotees i've come across, i don't pretend to know what is going to happen - or what is happening behind closed doors (mueller's never had things leaked from his investigation - unlike the fucking president).

Mueller's investigation is all but cooked. The public are now being made aware of just how that "investigation" began, and this can only help Trump.

 

[Xorkoth]

Trump has started no new wars and de-escalated two major conflicts.

What are we judging the presidents' performances on?

Those are only two factors we can judge a president on. There are many others though. We can judge Trump on the people he's appointed to important positions, many of whom are unqualified or in direct opposition to the purpose of the agency they were appointed to lead (Scott Pruitt, Betsy DeVoss, etc). We can judge him on the effect that his boorish and disgusting behavior and words have had on the rest of the world's perception of us. We can judge him on working towards full control of the media. We can judge him for being inconsistent on his positions. We can judge him for the sheer number of people in his administration who have been hired and fired, or quit, stating they can't work with this man anymore. We can judge him for having so little self-discipline that he'll tweet some shit that goes against what his administration is aiming to do, and they've got to run damage control.

The list goes on...

 

[mal3volent]

^ also, it's not as if Trump has chosen to not escalate these conflicts on some moral or ideological basis...he's not escalated them because it wouldn't benefit him in any way. The minute he thinks it would benefit him-- at that point, he wouldn't think twice about doing it.

and even if he hasn't made anything worse in Iraq or Afghanistan, he has definitely put us in plenty of danger by damaging so many relationships with our allies...

 

[JGrimez]

We can judge him on the effect that his boorish and disgusting behavior and words have had on the rest of the world's perception of us.

Forget the half century of invasions, regime changes, indiscriminate war, oppression of poor nations, false flags etc...

Nah it's Trump's words that is making America look bad...

My reply was for SJ who said that Trump has failed spectacularly in every area.

 

[alasdairm]

Forget the half century of invasions, regime changes, indiscriminate war, oppression of poor nations, false flags etc...

Nah it's Trump's words that is making America look bad...

you're a big fan of logical fallacies.

of course the former makes us look bad - because it is bad.

does that negate the point made xorkoth made? of course not.

alasdair

 

[Roger&Me]

Forget the half century of invasions, regime changes, indiscriminate war, oppression of poor nations, false flags etc...

Nah it's Trump's words that is making America look bad...

There's plenty of things the United States has done that can be fairly criticized. Nobody in their right mind would argue with that. But you have to give us credit for all the good things we've done too. The "half century of invasions, regime changes, indiscriminate war, oppression of poor nations, false flags," as you put it, was also marked by the establishment of a liberal world order led by the United States that gave the world an unprecedented level of peace and prosperity, the likes of which have never been seen before in human history.

Sure, America plays the game of empires too. And you don't become the greatest of the great powers without twisting a few arms. But we're by far the most benign empire in the history of planet Earth, and I challenge you to find a single great power that did more to help people and safeguard basic human rights than the United States. If anything, America is remarkable in the sense that it possesses--far and away--the most powerful military force that has ever existed, yet also exercises a great deal of restraint in wielding its military power.

But it's simply a fact that if America were to stop projecting its power, much worse actors (e.g., China) would move in to fill the vacuum. Because that's just how human beings behave. It's easy to criticize the United States when you've lived your entire life in a position of privilege and luxury that is, in a certain sense, only possible because of American military power.

 

[SheWasLvL18]

Someone said something that I just wanted to repeat because damn was it appropriate.

"The West has been criticizing the then USSR and now Russian Government over the past 60 years and now it no longer ok to do so? (sic)
Fucking Russian propaganda at work"

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

Someone said something that I just wanted to repeat because damn was it appropriate.

"The West has been criticizing the then USSR and now Russian Government over the past 60 years and now it no longer ok to do so? (sic)
Fucking Russian propaganda at work"

The Russian thing always irks me because I'm always in favor of finding common ground with other countries. Russia has changed a lot since we were at war with them almost 100 years ago. We share more in common with them as a country than we do with a lot of our allies. Obviously they run propaganda campaigns, spy on us, and engage in cyber warfare with us but so do all of our so called allies. The rekindling of that propaganda was strange too. I remember it from when they were still the USSR and it is just the same thing. It was like everyone forgot about Russia for a decade until it was convenient to hate them again. Any time something like that comes up in the news cycle so heavily I'm always suspect of it.

Plus, we fucking complained for years that the voting machines was easy to exploit under Obama and Bush. No one cared until an outsider managed to run and win the Presidency. If they really cared about the voting being rigged they would have done something about it when establishment candidates were the only ones running. The ones here run Windows XP, no way they're secure. Anyone with access to it can get into the OS from the application itself and change the values in the database. This is why no state should be voting on anything without paper ballots, at least then you have a shot at having evidence of what the real totals were.

 

[Roger&Me]

We share more in common with them as a country than we do with a lot of our allies

This is absolutely false. It's literally one of the most egregiously false statements I've ever heard. The Russian Federation and the United States are perhaps the two most disparate societies on planet Earth. No offense, but I'm getting really sick of having this argument with people who've never studied Russian culture or history, don't speak the Russian language, and have no business dealings or personal contacts with Russians.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

The Russians I know shitpost and play FPS games just like I do. They also have a nice hacker culture over there. They can get pretty damn annoying if they outnumber you though. What makes them so different then? I'm not some bumpkin that never cracked a book. I'd say we're closer to them culturally than we are with any of our allies in Western Asia.

 

[Roger&Me]

What makes them so different then?

I can't condense that into one post. Russia is different because it experienced thousands of years of history that was unique to Russia. It is not similar to the United States, in so many ways that you could write volumes of books about it. It was a medieval serfdom as recently as the 1920's, and it has never had a free and fair election in its entire history. The entire history of Russia's political life is profoundly different from America's, and there really aren't any true parallels.

 

[Roger&Me]

trump''s criminal ties are well-known, and he's been under investigation for a long time now.

It's been an open secret since the 80's that Trump is a de facto member of organized crime (which is mostly controlled by Russians, and the reason for that is a complex topic in and of itself. For further reading, check out Red Mafiya by Robert I. Friedman). Trump is a close associate of some of the worst mobsters in the world, e.g. Felix Sater (who is a lieutenant of Simeon Mogilevich, the head of the Russian mafia and the person who, in all likelihood, Vladimir Putin actually answers to). The Trump Organization was (and is) a giant washing machine for dirty Russian money (and the taxi companies owned by Michael Cohen and Gene Friedman probably were too). Trump was protected in New York, but he's quickly learning that Washington is a different ballgame entirely.

Russian society is very poorly understood by most westerners, and there's a lot of nuance that gets lost. The Russian state and Russian organized crime are two organs of the same body, and that concept is totally inconceivable to most westerners. But it's a tradition with ancient origins in Russian society; so called "thieves in law" have existed for almost as long as Russia has. There's no analogue for that in the west, where the state is the only recognized source of legitimate power. Even the descriptor "Russian mafia" is inherently wrong, because it implies that it's similar to other organized criminal organizations that have been referred to as "mafias" in the past, but its fundamentally different. It's more accurate to think of it as a co-equal branch of the Russian government with a built-in mechanism for plausible deniability.

As an aside, the Russian state itself is also generally misunderstood by most westerners. The only real power in the Russian state is the cheka, it is the true hand that guides every domestic function of the Russian government, and that too is an ancient tradition in Russian society. Russia is a police state where Vladimir Putin plays the role of first policeman. It's a bureaucratic autocracy where nobody can escape the menacing eyes of the secret police, the same as it's always been. Rule of law is nonexistent, private property rights don't really exist, and people are not free to speak their minds. I cannot wrap my head around how anybody could praise Vladimir Putin or think he's an okay guy. The only possible explanation for that is profound ignorance (or some kind of perverse admiration for neo-fascism, I guess).

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Taking away Comey's security clearance = brilliant idea. Next step: lock him up.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

It's been an open secret since the 80's that Trump is a de facto member of organized crime (which is mostly controlled by Russians, and the reason for that is a complex topic in and of itself. For further reading, check out Red Mafiya by Robert I. Friedman). Trump is a close associate of some of the worst mobsters in the world, e.g. Felix Sater (who is a lieutenant of Simeon Mogilevich, the head of the Russian mafia and the person who, in all likelihood, Vladimir Putin actually answers to). The Trump Organization was (and is) a giant washing machine for dirty Russian money (and the taxi companies owned by Michael Cohen and Gene Friedman probably were too). Trump was protected in New York, but he's quickly learning that Washington is a different ballgame entirely.

Russian society is very poorly understood by most westerners, and there's a lot of nuance that gets lost. The Russian state and Russian organized crime are two organs of the same body, and that concept is totally inconceivable to most westerners. But it's a tradition with ancient origins in Russian society; so called "thieves in law" have existed for almost as long as Russia has. There's no analogue for that in the west, where the state is the only recognized source of legitimate power. Even the descriptor "Russian mafia" is inherently wrong, because it implies that it's similar to other organized criminal organizations that have been referred to as "mafias" in the past, but its fundamentally different. It's more accurate to think of it as a co-equal branch of the Russian government with a built-in mechanism for plausible deniability.

As an aside, the Russian state itself is also generally misunderstood by most westerners. The only real power in the Russian state is the cheka, it is the true hand that guides every domestic function of the Russian government, and that too is an ancient tradition in Russian society. Russia is a police state where Vladimir Putin plays the role of first policeman. It's a bureaucratic autocracy where nobody can escape the menacing eyes of the secret police, the same as it's always been. Rule of law is nonexistent, private property rights don't really exist, and people are not free to speak their minds. I cannot wrap my head around how anybody could praise Vladimir Putin or think he's an okay guy. The only possible explanation for that is profound ignorance (or some kind of perverse admiration for neo-fascism, I guess).

The Russian government is illegitimate. I don't care how it functions. It has to be stopped.