Tapering off of poppy pods

[HamClamp]

Ha! Just put the tractor in the barn. I HAD to do it. I could not look at them any longer. That was intense...

You lost me at "gene regulation" but I followed enough to nod in agreement and say this: There is no right way or wrong way there is only the way that works for us individually. If nothing else we'll have two sets of notes to compare. You know, as much as medicine has advanced in the past X years very little is known about addiction/withdrawal/recovery and one theory is as good as the next. I'll agree that your method is as sound as mine and the next guys too. All we want to do is arrive at a time of zero opiate intake with a reasonable amount of physical and mental health and comfort. THAT is ALL that matters!

Keep talking, I'll do the same, and we'll all get through this.

Hang in there!

 

[Help me please]

Ham I am happy that you are controlling your diabetes with diet and exercise. I am shocked at how many people, kids included, are T2's now. When I was dx'd it was still uncommon to have T2 unless that person was obese and old and all the T1's were kids. When I got off the oxymorphone and went to straight morphine I noted a difference in my I:C ratio (insulin to carb). It may change again once I get off the morphine too.

Speaking of which...20 minutes till my next dose and then I nap for a few hours. It's Saturday night and if I don't nap I'll never stay awake till my midnight dose of morphine. Geeze I am aging as I type! This is nuts really. I plan to drop a dose tomorrow going down to every 12 hours and I have a garden with several rows of beets that I need to pull Monday and then can them. Half for plain beets and half for pickled beets with onions! Great time to taper no? Everything is getting ready to harvest which means almost daily canning, freezing, or dehydrating!

 

[podster1985]

Nicely done! That was a brave thing to do, I don't think I would've had the balls. Evil species. I've been wondering, if you look at the sum total across history, whether the poppy has relieved suffering or caused more human misery than it has helped. Given it's importance in early medicine, I suspect it has helped, but not by much.

keeping myself occupied indeed seems to be the real key. If I can get involved with something and get out of my head, I don't feel bad anymore. Heading out to try to reclaim some of the friends that I've ignored for past months. You hang in there too. This shit'll be over soon.

 

[HamClamp]

Ham I am happy that you are controlling your diabetes with diet and exercise. I am shocked at how many people, kids included, are T2's now. When I was dx'd it was still uncommon to have T2 unless that person was obese and old and all the T1's were kids. When I got off the oxymorphone and went to straight morphine I noted a difference in my I:C ratio (insulin to carb). It may change again once I get off the morphine too.

Diet has changed. EVERYTHING is loaded with HFCS. Even bread is loaded with that crap. A kid doesn't stand a chance unless the parents are very aware and diligent.

Speaking of which...20 minutes till my next dose and then I nap for a few hours. It's Saturday night and if I don't nap I'll never stay awake till my midnight dose of morphine. Geeze I am aging as I type! This is nuts really. I plan to drop a dose tomorrow going down to every 12 hours and I have a garden with several rows of beets that I need to pull Monday and then can them. Half for plain beets and half for pickled beets with onions! Great time to taper no? Everything is getting ready to harvest which means almost daily canning, freezing, or dehydrating!

Actually it might be a good time to be tapering as being busy IS helpful. Hard to mope around feeling sorry for ones self while canning a bunch of beets right? I LOVE beets! You just made me so hungry! All I have here is canned beets so those will have to suffice for now. Your sound so much better!

Dropping another dose tomorrow? Good for you! Great job thus far. You're doing great! I've been quite busy today but not too busy to have you and all the others in my thoughts today. I had no idea that so much support would be found here and it really warms my hert and makes a difference. Holy cow! For the first time in a very very long time I dont' feel so damn alone. You have gone out of your way to make me feel so welcome and it means so much to me. Thanks you.

Wish I knew you in r/l so I could help you with the canning. I've only made preserves but it was fun and I eally enjoyed it. I'm sure I'd like canning too.

Did you know that beets make an excellent drawing poultice? If you ever have a splinter that won't come out or a boil that won't come to a head take some beet greens, finely chop them, mix with olive oil into a thick paste, and plaster that on the splinter or boil. Cover with a gauze pad overnight. It will draw it out by morning in most cases. A slice of raw beet will do the same. This has been a lifesave (or so it felt!) many times in the past.

Well there is HamClamps Helpful Hint of the Day. Just took my second daily dose. I've tried to take advantage of this "early in the taper" day and get as much work done as possible. I have a feeling the lawn is gonna grow a little long in the coming weeks. Maybe not- hopefully I'll feel up to keeping up with my chores. I've been SO lazy and unproductive this past year so anything will be an improvement. When I feel like I just can't do my chores you can be sure I'll be thinking about how you canned beets while taperring and you'll motivate me to get up off my ass and get some work done!

Take good care of yourself and I'll talk with you again very soon.

Peace!

 

[HamClamp]

Nicely done! That was a brave thing to do, I don't think I would've had the balls. Evil species. I've been wondering, if you look at the sum total across history, whether the poppy has relieved suffering or caused more human misery than it has helped. Given it's importance in early medicine, I suspect it has helped, but not by much.

Bah! It needed to be done. Interesting thought about the poppy. Very interesting indeed.

keeping myself occupied indeed seems to be the real key. If I can get involved with something and get out of my head, I don't feel bad anymore. Heading out to try to reclaim some of the friends that I've ignored for past months. You hang in there too. This shit'll be over soon.

I agree. As things progress I know damn well that lethargy will kick in and put me down on the couch. I get so lazy it feels like my arms and legs have weights attached. I hate that! I've begun doing some stretching to try to limber up a bit and I've been known to do jumpingjacks and squat-thrusts at the oddest hours, when withdrawing, trying to get the blood pumping and beat the lethargy out of me.

Hope you have a good day catching up with your people and you guys enjoy each others company!

Peace!

 

[Help me please]

Ham, I did not know that about beet greens. I admit that I usually run to the doctor for anything and everything. Always had to be extra careful my whole life. Back later.

EDIT: My daughter had called and we had been at odds for a few weeks and just made peace a few days ago. I love her so much and it hurt for her to be angry with me.

I was going to say that I am scared to death at dropping a dose but it was suggested to me by someone I trust very much. My husband thinks I need to just wait till I see the doctor in a few weeks. My PCP who I saw last week said the same thing. He was more concerned about potential liability on the PM dr should anything happen to me that he (PM dr) did not tell me to do. PCP said something about "you could die you know". Lol, he is a dear friend for many years and even though he is younger than I am he acts like he is my daddy at times. I know for a fact that my husband has told him to say something to me about (insert whatever) and he will. Conspiracy! The thought of the WD being the same intensity as it was for that first drop from oxymorphone to morphine scares the hell out of me! I have said that so many times I worry it is self prophesying <----(this doesn't look like the correct spelling to me) now! I guess I wait to see what happens tomorrow then The plan was to take my 8 am dose and then hold off till 8 pm for the next rather than 4 pm. Going to 60 mg of MS IR per day seems so little compared to what others have been through but we all have our crosses...

 

[HamClamp]

I'm so glad to hear you've mended the fence with your daughter. Life is so short and it is so easy to get caught up in what turns out to be petty differences at such a cost. I remember back many many years ago I didn't speak to my father for almost a year. It was horrible! What if something were to happen? From that point forward I vowed to never allow that to happen again and he did too. I'd rather swallow my pride than be "right" or "win" some stupid arguement!

You won't die from opiate withdrawals but of course mind your sugar, BP, etc. those who don't know can't be faulted. They care Conspiracy! Bless their hearts, huh? Heck yeah!

I'm not clear about how much you dose and at what schedule. If I'm reading you right you're going to skip your 4pm dose or are you pushing it back to 8 pm? Or... you dose every 4 hours so you're skipping your 4pm dose? Could you briefly lay out where you are at right now? Like X mg Y times per 24 hours.

I highly doubt that dropping a dose will be anything like when they cut your oxymorph and put you on morphine. As you said the worry is more often than not far worse than the reality. Let me know how you dose/schedule and we'll get a better idea how things will go.

Don't compare your dose to anyone else! Its yours, it's real, and it i just as important as ANY other dose, drug, etc. Addiction is addiction and w/d is w/d. you 60mg morphne habit is no less serious and the guy shooting a bundle of dope before lunch. It's all hell and it doesn't matter. You are just as valuable as every other person on this planet and yor struggle is just as important as anyone elses. We're all in the same damn boat and there is NO scorecard!

Hope your evening is going well. I'm feeling really good tonight. Todays drop hasn't hurt yet. Damn long half-life of pods. I'm expecting to feel a little rough in the morning but I'll worry about that when it gets here. For now I'm enjoying a quiet Saturday night listening to music, reading and posting here, cooking, playing wiht my dogs, and talking on the phone.

Things could be much worse for sure. MUCH worse.

EDIT: DUH! I ought to work on my reading comprehension. I see that you're gonna drop down to 12 hours between doses. With extended release tablets I doubt it will be hardly noticeable outside of the mental aspects. Prepare yourself for a good day tomorrow. I think you're gonna be just fine.

 

[Help me please]

Ham here's it all in a nutshell. Went from oxymorphone ER 20 mg every 12 hours and Norco 10/325 up to 60 mg per day to Morphine sulfate IR 15 mg every 8 hours. That's when the bad WD hit.

For the last few weeks this is my schedule:
Morphine Sulfate Immediate release, 30 mg every 8 hours on the dot. 8 am , 4 pm, and midnight.

The fear is from the WD I had from dropping from what I was told was 60 to 70% of my opiate dosage. It was my fault not the doctors.

Yeah, I have been told I could go CT and not feel much at all. I know this is not much of a dose to lots of people. I am old though Can't take as much as the youngin's ya know? Hehehe. Also while I don't work or go to school I have a household to run and a grandson to babysit. The world can't stop for me when I get sick. Why is that again? All because I have an innie instead of an outtie?

EDIT: so yes, I will go to an 8 am and pm dose only. I would be pushing my 4 pm dose to 8 pm and then omitting it completely. Dose that make sense?

 

[HamClamp]

Ham here's it all in a nutshell. Went from oxymorphone ER 20 mg every 12 hours and Norco 10/325 up to 60 mg per day to Morphine sulfate IR 15 mg every 8 hours. That's when the bad WD hit.

Yes I can see why it kicked your butt! That was a huge drop for sure.

For the last few weeks this is my schedule:
Morphine Sulfate Immediate release, 30 mg every 8 hours on the dot. 8 am , 4 pm, and midnight.

Gotcha. 30mg @ 3x/day =90mg IR total per day

The fear is from the WD I had from dropping from what I was told was 60 to 70% of my opiate dosage. It was my fault not the doctors.

And a valid fear indeed. Dropping the morphine you're on now will be much softer that your previous experience for sure.

Yeah, I have been told I could go CT and not feel much at all. I know this is not much of a dose to lots of people. I am old though Can't take as much as the youngin's ya know? Hehehe. Also while I don't work or go to school I have a household to run and a grandson to babysit. The world can't stop for me when I get sick. Why is that again? All because I have an innie instead of an outtie?

Heh heh you're not old. You're a spring chicken BAWK BAWK! And no cold turkey would NOT be easy @ 90mg/day. Compared to a huge H habit? Yes. Compared to a huge pod habit? Yep. Good thing were not comparing, huh?

I read you loud and clear regarding a need to deal with day to day life along the way. I also can not miss time at work. I miss time=I go hungry. It's that simple. We'll get through this as softly and gently as possible.

And yes, being a bit older DOES make a big difference. Us oldsters need to be extra-gentle on ourselves.

EDIT: so yes, I will go to an 8 am and pm dose only. I would be pushing my 4 pm dose to 8 pm and then omitting it completely. Dose that make sense?

Yes. You plan on skipping your 4:00pm dose and dropping to 30mg morning and 30mg night=60mg/day.

That is a 33.3% drop. Very doable. Speaking only for myself here: I have always been able to tolerate a 35% drop with no more than mental craving and MINOR symptoms. If you wish to be even more gentle you *could* cut that 4:00pm tab in half and just take half at 4:00pm. That would be a 16.67% drop and that would be a walk in the park.

You seem VERY determined to do this- good for you! If, however, you feel really bad after skipping that 4:00pm dose please consider just halving it. Sure, that will slow things down, but what's your hurry, right?

If it goes well today it might be a good idea to settle there for a few days (I always sit for three) before your next drop. Here is where the math kicks in: If you were to drop, say, your night dose next, that would be a 50% drop. You will feel that I'm almost certain. You might want to pick up a pill-splitter (makes cutting pills in half a breeze. Prevents crushing them to powder) at the drugstore in the next day or two so that you can keep your drops smaller. As I said: For me it's all about keeping my drops under 35% and as I get down low I keep them at 10% to remain functional. We are all different, though, and only you can make the final call as to how you're gonna go.

You be sure and keep us posted as things progress okay? Treat this thread as your own. That goes for you and anyone else who's taking the plunge.

Today is a milestone day for you! I hope it goes very well for you. No matter, though, you are not gonna do ANY of this alone!

Courage!

 

[HamClamp]

Day Five.

Still sitting here at 10.5g morning/night. Already my patience is wearing thin. I just want to be done with this shit. i am SO sick of scheduling my freaking life around a freaking dose AAAARRRGGGHHHHH!

I am SO temted to start flushing shit or just taking a huge step down but I've GOT to chill out and follow the plan lest I fail like many other times. I need to remember that Rome wasn't built in a day so it's gonna take some time to tear it down.

Symptom-wise I feel fine. Stiff and sore this morning but that is more from working hard all day yesterday. I felt a little bit sniffly this morning but that could also be the fact I slept with the windows wide open and it got a little chilly and damp through the night. I got decent sleep so I'm happy about that. I've never been much of a sleeper.

That's all for me.

Hanging in there and I hope all of the other good taperers/kickers are too!

 

[Help me please]

Ham if I were you I'd follow the plan you set up. You haven't had any problems yet so why take a chance from a bigger jump?

 

[Bojangles69]

I just want to say there was more than a handful of times where I veered from my taper. And there was also 2 times where I rebagged my doses and recalibrated the drops to what I felt I could handle best.
Like one time I was suppose to drop from 70gms, to 35gm (this was in the like the first 4 days when I could get away with it), and only wound up taking 25 the day not feeling too sick at all. I notice you can make those bigger drops the bigger a dose you're taking basically.
And it does actually motivate you through the taper imo. The only thing you need to watch out for is how you actually feel after the drops. If you feel like its something you can't handle, its better to just up a few gms than to fight the wds and be miserable.

I personally didn't notice the annoying wds till I got under 6gms. Which is when all a sudden my sleep went to shit and RLS popped up out of nowhere (with a vengeance I might add). The hot flashes/chills/goosebumps/ and aches should for the most part go away once you get super low. Thats just when the phase seems to change and everything turns into insomnia and RLS. Just keep that in mind because it was exactly how mine went.
So now I'm starting back at 6, and doing a different type of landing. I said you need to land the habit like a plane which is true, you do slower drops at the end so it becomes shallower and shallower. But one thing I forgot about planes is sometimes the wheels touch ground, than jump back up into the air before touching ground again. So my wheels were on the ground for 8 days just that now they're in the air again lol. But as soon as they touch the run way again I'm sure they'll be on the ground for good.
In all honesty tapering off pods is not as bad as I expected, I just had absolutely no plan at all for the insomnia, and if I had planned that out before I wouldn't have needed to go back to using. So definitely get something outlined for insomnia it will help a lot for the final jump. I stocked up on things I need for the actual taper, but had not stocked up on things for after the taper. Its really not hard to get to the end of the taper, and if you have something to combat the insomnia you're golden imo. I should mention one of my thoughts was "if the sleep gets that bad I'll just load up on antihistamines and have a few shots" but antihistamines DO NOT do a thing for sleeping during wds. And I'm not sure why I thought I'd just start drinking when I haven't had a beer or a shot in years. I just can't push myself to do it as I loathe the anxiety I get from hangovers. I've always reacted to alcohol that way but it *may work for you, as it worked for Jay somewhat.
Whatever the case I'm happy there so many recovering poppy addicts in this forum with so much knowledge on getting off that shit. There was COUNTLESS times where I was generally confused or something had changed in my taper (like an increase in wds for no real reason) and people would tell me "its normal just fight through the spikes for a couple of days" and like clock work things always slowly got better. Its just funny how the taper is like a giant scorpion holding you with his claws, and you learn how to escape his grip by simple tapering. But the second you're "free" his tail is still there waiting for you (the insomnia) and if you dont have a plan the tail will come around and sting you right in the ass. So thanks to my brilliant metaphors lol, now you can escape the sneaky tail that got my ass.

 

[podster1985]

Yeah, I understand now why people say it is the mental rather than the physical symptoms that get you. Definitely feeling the weight of the world today, coping capacity seems to be reduced to nearly non-existent. Ate my daily dose a bit early, but staying the course. Already, I am taking so much less than I was before the shortage started. Was thinking about fushing things too, just get it over with already. But, I have work to do, and getting a little relief and being able to sleep everyday is keeping me afloat.

Ham and Help, I hope you both are doing well. It helps to know ya'll are fighting this too.

 

[podster1985]

Oh, and bojangles, thanks for the advice. I like the landing metaphor. I may have to re-portion a bit with that in mind. Best

 

[Help me please]

Well Ham et all, I fucked up. I forgot and took the 4 pm dose. I had to shoot some insulin and just grabbed the bottle of morphine and took one. Spent all day thinking about it too. Oh well...tomorrow is another day.

 

[HamClamp]

Reading you loud and clear Bo. I guess I'm lucky in that I have no problem tapering. It's staying off the shit AFTER the taper due to, in order of how badly they mess with me, Anxiety, depression, lethargy. Where you're struggling with insomnia and subsequent depression I struggle with those three. Where I've choked in the past was prepping for the taper but not prepping for the first few weeks of readjustment. So yeah- I'm feeling you big time here.

This time I've looked beyond the taper and stocked up. I've got an herbal pharmacy here that's outta this world. I've got herbal stims for the lethargy, herbs for anxiety, herbs/vitamins/supplements for depression. I've also got some pharms but I try to avoid them if I can. I will, however, do whatever the hell I have to do to make it this time. I'm sick of bouncing back and forth and almost constant tapering. Ugh.

I'm seriously considering an adjustment/recalibration here soon. Tomorrow is my last day at this dose (10.5g 2x/day). I might skip 7.5 and drop down to 5 on Tuesday. I'm growing VERY impatient and already I feel like I'm gonna run out of steam. This might sound absurd but I feel too good right now. I've got zero symptoms and because of that I feel like I'm not really accomplishing anything. I'm not one to make rash decisions so I'll be sleeping on this for a couple more nights before I make any move. Just throwing it out there.

Podster- I swear the biggest battle, for me, is AFTER the taper when the days all of a sudden become painfully long. Boredom leads to depression, anxiety, and laziness. Tapering/kicking IS easy. It's staying clean that I keep fucking up at. This is the first time I've looked beyond the taper and prepped for that first week or two that I need to get through until I'm in my new life without pods. I can take the runs for weeks. What I can't take is the depression, the inability to get moving, and that freaking gut-wrenching anxiety. Those are ALL mental issues. And those are the things I've tried my best to prep for. I hope to hell I've done enough homework and can pull this off. I'm SO tired of it all. Like yu I had the thought that I just ought to flush everything but I'd probably regret that around noon tomorrow when I'm at work shitting down my leg :-| Hang in there and we'll get through this, okay?

Hemp- So you fucked up. Welcome to the human condition. Tomorrow IS another day. Do you think you subconsciously talked yourself out of it? Maybe think about a 1/2 dose drop if that's the case. Not quite so scary dropping half a dose. Food for thought...

Has anyone gotten swollen ankles from these shitty weak pods that everyone is selling for the past month? I've noticed that my ankles/feel are swollen and puffy starting a day after I started on these shitty weak pods. Kinda freaking me out. This is another reason I am thinking about stepping up my effort and taking a bigger drop. I don't want to mess myself up while trying to get better!

Alright enough of this thinking out loud here. Took my evening dose uneventfully a couple hours ago. I'm gonna try to get to bed early tonight as I'm trying to reset my body-clock. I've been staying up to almost sunrise most nights with the typical pod insomnia. I want to get back on a "normal" somewhat human schedule.

You guys and gals hang in there and keep at it. This shit will pass and it will get better. Bo- I hope you get some sleep brother. Podster- hang in there pal. Hemp- don't work too hard tomorrow. Maybe tomorow is the day to drop that dose or half-dose as you're gonna be one busy lady. Everyone else hang tough and carry on and lets get our sorry asses through this and get to the ther side. See you all tomorrow.

Peace.

 

[HamClamp]

Whoa!

No need to cut my dose; Woke up with a pod jones this morning. Yep- it finally caught up with me. Pupils starting to dialate a little bit, aching lower back and legs, major craving. Yep todays 10.5g dose is looking really yummy right about now.

And so it begins. This show is officially on the road!

Here goes....

 

[JayJohnson]

Ham, I've had some batches of pods that would make my feet/ankles swell up. (A friend of mine said he would get swollen feet from certain prescription opiates also.) It's strange but not unheard of. When it happened to me I'd put on two pair of socks and spend what time I could lying down with my feet raised above my heart. No biggie...

 

[HamClamp]

*Whew!* ^ Good to know. I was kind of worried. Well actually I still sort of am. I mean these pods are shitty seven different ways so I'm not surprised but still- it's kinda freaky to look down and see these two fat feet lookin back up at me. I'll kick in the recliner back tonight with a pile of pillows under my feet and see if it helps.

Thanks for putting it out there Jay!

These shitty pods ARE different. The alkyloid profile is weird. I don't really feel them come on but if I eat something, especially something fatty or rich an hour later, I can feel them and they make me feel VERY sleepy. Probably some experimental mutant pod or some other sort of weirdness. Gosh I'm gonna be SO glad to not eat this mystery crap every damn day.

I'm almost regretting mowing down my poppy garden as I'm thinking I'd have been better off tapering with my homegrowns rather than these foot-swelling mutand shit-pods form hell. At least I know that they are organic. Bah- it would have taken me a week just to sort out the dosage and what's done is done. This bigfoot thing I've got going on has me kind of freaked out so don't mind me. I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm going to work. See you guys and gals later.

Thanks again Jay!

 

[Help me please]

Morning all. I am sick after all. My thigh has been bugging me and husband looked at it and turned out I had a huge sliver about 4 inches below my butt cheek! He really had to dig to get it out. I'm spending the day doing nothing and waiting till tomorrow to can beets. I need to call the doctor to have him call in an antibiotic for me too. There's an infection there for sure!

Ham...My PCP has me on maxzide which is a potassium sparing water pill. I take it because my toes swell up which probably is from the opiates since it started about that time. It's the weirdest thing but just the toes. The two weeks I was using the clonidine patch I quit taking the maxzide and there went the little piggies! I don't even run it through insurance because it's a $4 script at Walmart pharmacy and probably everywhere else too.