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Supplements Shown to COMPLETELY BLOCK Serotonin Depletion from MDMA

Yeah I knew they were mentioned in the harm reduction thread, but I thought these studies warranted special attention. At least in the study I linked, ALA did completely block the two main markers for monoaminergic neurotoxicity, glial activation and neurotransmitter depletion. And yeah, some depletion is necessary because MDMA releases serotonin, but without damage your brain can replenish it in a few days at most, whereas otherwise it takes weeks or months depending on the dose.
 
Alpha lipoic acid increases the brain's primary anti-oxidant gluthianone.
Glial cells are able to protect neurons by 'spraying' gluthianone around the brain.
And anti-oxidant supply is thought to be the last line of defense against neuronal damage and peroxidation!

So ALA and LOTS of vitamin C is called for before and after every roll.
There is no reason not to and possibly great protective benefits.
VIT C should be taken in 3000mg doses before during and after the roll, because only VERY high intravenous doses showed neuro-protection in animal studies.
ALA doesn't need such high or repeated doses, because gluthianone reaches a full status.

It wouldn't suprise me at all if such high level of antioxidant supplementation slightly lessened the effects of MDMA.
It is possible that 'toxicity' or cell damage is partly responsible for the euphoria!
And plenty of research scientists assume that the neurotoxic properties are at least partially responsible for the experience itself - perhaps in a way that escapes the threshold of detection currently.

But it is accepted that much of the neurotoxicity occurs after the experience, so taking a competitive serotonin agonist at three hours post dose offers substantial neuroprotection. But how many of you want to shut off the experience completely at three hours post MDMA? While you are still feeling pretty nice?
Exactly...

ALCAR will protect the brain against ischemia during a stroke, but its other benefits to the brain are not well understood.
Acetyl-l carnitine increases dopamine concentration in the nucleus acumbens shell, and this is a likely candidate for reduction of neurotoxicity from MDMA. It is the flow of dopamine into serotonin receptors and transporters that causes oxidative stress, receptor down-regulation, membrane peroxidation, and axotomy!

So by altering the flow of dopamine around the brain to the meso-limbic pathway and away from cortical regions, 5HT degeneration may be lessened or stopped altogether.

But much of this is theory based on limited observation.
Yes, in rats ALCAR completely blocks detectable serotonin toxicity at two weeks post.
This does not automatically translate to humans...

And I have been told that ALCAR in itself has damaging properties and MUST be paired with ALA.
But I have not researched this myself.

I must add that at month 8 or 9 of my recovery I tried ALCAR + Piracetam.
It was VERY intense for many hours.
Lots of anxiety, anger, head-pressure...

But after about 3 hours it felt like a switch was flipped.
Suddenly and without warning - I was NORMAL.
Very normal.

I felt like my old self - 99%.
No other supplement has caused such a transformation, not even Piracetam.
The 'increase of dopamine in the NA shell' must cause an alignment of the higher cortical circuits.
Because for about 6 hours that night I felt like the old me - it was a very profound and emotional experience.
I actually experienced powerful regret and empathy that I had not been capable of for over six months.
And I read through research and wrote that night as efficiently as I used to!

It is hard to describe just how amazing the transformation was.
A very surreal experience that may never occur for me again.
I tried to replicate it many times over the next few weeks, without success.
Only the negative effects like anxiety and anger occurred - no transformation.
And I was very wiped out during the days that followed!
Perhaps I needed the ALA...

I have not tried since and it is has been about 8 months.
But I still have some and I'm tempted.
Whatever ALCAR does to cortical and limbic serotonin and dopamine function is quite incredible and worthy of further study.

Again, I expect it to lessen the MDMA experience at least mildly - because dopamine flow into the PFC is critical for the euprhoric and empathic properties. But a little sacrifice for real protection sounds damned reasonable.
If only I had known.
 
I'll try this next month (after my poor little brain recovers from friday) when I do MDMA and I'll compare my comedown to Friday's one, it's the same batch of MDMA too (tested with marquis) it's possible it's cut very slightly with speed because when I tested it the marquis went straight to black with a slightly red/orange tint which then became a dark purple/jet black tint. and i did feel quite speedy towards the end of my roll but i redosed a fair bit which i know is bad and induces more dopamine heavy effects.

You guys reckon doses of this for 2 days before and 2 days after doing MDMA would prevent neurotoxicity from redosing in the night?
 
Who can say. People are just extrapolating from tiny amounts of preliminary research done on animals. Most prelim research turns out to be wrong in biological and medical science. So it might not do anything and it's possible that it's even harmful in way nobody has thought of yet. But it would seem that it is likely to be harmless and IF it works the benefits would be of immense value so seems to me that it's worth a shot.

Anecdotal evidence is pretty worthless but I'll add mine all the same. The last time I rolled took large doses of antioxidants - Vit C, Vit E, Green Tea Extract and so on, plus piracetam. I took them directly before the roll, immediately afterwards and for the following week. My comedown was best I've had and the next week was fine even compare to normal weeks. Whether it was down to anti-oxidants I cannot be sure, but I'll be doing this again although I might drop the piracetam for the night itself. I'm going to be adding CLA/ALCAR to the mix too.
 
Andronicus said:
Who can say. People are just extrapolating from tiny amounts of preliminary research done on animals. Most prelim research turns out to be wrong in biological and medical science. So it might not do anything and it's possible that it's even harmful in way nobody has thought of yet. But it would seem that it is likely to be harmless and IF it works the benefits would be of immense value so seems to me that it's worth a shot.
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That's true, I'm not so skeptical about this though for a couple reasons. First, the metabolic pathways for MDMA are almost certainly the same; these result in oxidative products which are probably what govern the neurotoxicity. Second, the doses of MDMA used in rat studies are pretty high, especially the ALC study (20x a recreational MDMA dose in mg/kg). Third, even then, the equivalent dose of antioxidant for a human in mg/kg that completely blocked damage could feasibly be taken if you're good at swallowing pills.

Obviously no excuse to go binging on MDMA, but it's a pretty exciting prospect. I don't even take amph anymore without selenium, ALA, vitamin C, and CoQ10.
 
Why are they doing all these studies on mice? I would gladly participate in a study where they give me some free MDMA.
 
atrollappears said:
Too much paperwork I think :P

Also I don't know how easy it is to measure serotonin levels in humans.
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i dont know how easy it is but i think it's doable because i have heard of some studies where they measure human serotonin levels.

and i'd gladly do all the paperwork for them if they gave me some free 100% pure mdma.
 
atrollappears said:
That's true, I'm not so skeptical about this though for a couple reasons. First, the metabolic pathways for MDMA are almost certainly the same; these result in oxidative products which are probably what govern the neurotoxicity. Second, the doses of MDMA used in rat studies are pretty high, especially the ALC study (20x a recreational MDMA dose in mg/kg). Third, even then, the equivalent dose of antioxidant for a human in mg/kg that completely blocked damage could feasibly be taken if you're good at swallowing pills.

Obviously no excuse to go binging on MDMA, but it's a pretty exciting prospect. I don't even take amph anymore without selenium, ALA, vitamin C, and CoQ10.
Click to expand...

Yes it's possible to make a convincing sounding case. I read widely on science and skepticism in general and one thing I've become aware of is that convincing sounding stories mean zilch, single studies are very often just plain wrong, and that animal models are often entirely irrelevant to humans which is why they should only be used for preliminary research. Many thousands of potential and well-researched drugs that looked promising even in primates have proved to be useless or worse in humans. Also the body is extremely complex and measuring one parameter often leads to false conclusions as other systems are in play that mean the overall effect is different. Even what appear to be very straightforward situations turn out not to be. I'm also aware that anyone who is not a specialist in the field is usually incapable of picking out all the faults in studies and therefore I and nobody else on this site can really understand the full implications of it. This is a bugbear of mine about this site actually - people trade anecdotes as truths, cling to tiny bits of possibly useless research and extrapolate their shallow knowlege of brain chemistry as if they really understand it like a neuroscientist researching the area.

However since the research confirming whether these supps are likely to be beneficial or not is not likely to happen any time soon, and the fact that they occur in our food naturally anyway, chances are they're probably not harmful and might be beneficial, I'm willing to go with that and try them. However if it turns out to be totally wrong in 10years I would not be even the tiniest bit surprised.
 
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