Supplements Shown to COMPLETELY BLOCK Serotonin Depletion from MDMA

[atrollappears]

Came across these studies on acetyl-L-carnitine and alpha lipoic acid, thought you might find them useful. According to these studies, administration of either of these supplements completely (alpha lipoic acid) or virtually (acetyl-L-carnitine) blocks long term MDMA-induced serotonin depletion. The acetyl-L-carnitine study actually used quite a high dosage of MDMA so that one is particularly impressive.
Equivalent dosages for a 70 kg human are about 800 mg of acetyl-L-carnitine, and 800 mg of alpha lipoic acid twice daily for two days, last dose 30 minutes before MDMA administration.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306452208015947
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665

A few points if you plan to use this:
1. No, these are not ridiculous doses, I take about these amounts of these supplements daily.
2. That amount of alpha lipoic acid will increase your stomach acidity a lot. Take it with meals, and take an antacid with it before you take MDMA (I'm generalizing from amphetamine to MDMA in assuming that stomach acidity hinders drug absorption).
3. These dosages are not corrected for the oral bioavailability of the supplements. They were injected in the studies, so if anyone can find figures on the oral bioavailabilities of these supplements, you would want to correct the dose by dividing by that number. In the mean time you could always be generous with the amounts, these are not dangerous chemicals

 

[Darksidesam]

But if it blocks serotonin depletion, doesn't it take the fun/ desired effects out of MDMA?

http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_03/i_03_m/i_03_m_par/i_03_m_par_ecstasy.html

 

[snafu]

But if it blocks serotonin depletion, doesn't it take the fun/ desired effects out of MDMA?

That's what I'm thinking

 

[atrollappears]

The acetyl-L-carnitine study was measuring levels two weeks after. Any depletion at that point is a sign of neurotoxicity, regardless of amount released. I don't know at what point they measured serotonin levels in the alpha lipoic acid study, but if they were attempting to measure neurotoxicity (which they were) it would be around the same time, i.e. a couple weeks. Non-neurotoxic serotonin releasing agents really don't deplete serotonin for more than a day or two, so the body only needs a day or two to rebuild its serotonin if neurotoxicity hasn't occured.

Edit: Also that little flash diagram isn't showing how ecstasy works, it's showing how prozac works -.-

 

[Darksidesam]

So your telling me that mdma doesnt release serotonin in that fashion?

 

[ChiLights]

Came across these studies on acetyl-L-carnitine and alpha lipoic acid, thought you might find them useful. According to these studies, administration of either of these supplements completely (alpha lipoic acid) or virtually (acetyl-L-carnitine) blocks MDMA-induced serotonin depletion. The acetyl-L-carnitine study actually used quite a high dosage of MDMA so that one is particularly impressive.
Equivalent dosages for a 70 kg human are about 800 mg of acetyl-L-carnitine, and 800 mg of alpha lipoic acid twice daily for two days, last dose 30 minutes before MDMA administration.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306452208015947
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665

A few points if you plan to use this:
1. No, these are not ridiculous doses, I take about these amounts of these supplements daily.
2. That amount of alpha lipoic acid will increase your stomach acidity a lot. Take it with meals, and take an antacid with it before you take MDMA (I'm generalizing from amphetamine to MDMA in assuming that stomach acidity hinders drug absorption).
3. These dosages are not corrected for the oral bioavailability of the supplements. They were injected in the studies, so if anyone can find figures on the oral bioavailabilities of these supplements, you would want to correct the dose by dividing by that number. In the mean time you could always be generous with the amounts, these are not dangerous chemicals

That's actually quite interesting - I was taking act-l-car daily for working out, including days id roll

Never impacted the roll/high negatively

But since I started taking workout supplements I've never really felt a hang over or any undesired after effects. Crazy!

The only times I felt a bad hangover was before I knew about pre post load sups, and wasn't takin supplements for strength training (trying to go au naturale)

 

[atrollappears]

So your telling me that mdma doesnt release serotonin in that fashion?

I'm saying that MDMA releases serotonin, but it also damages the serotonin-containing neurons. If it didn't damage those neurons, then your body would be back to normal in a day or two. Because it does damage them, serotonin is actually depleted for weeks or months after MDMA use depending on the amount taken (at least in mice ). So these studies show that there isn't any depletion a couple weeks later, so they're showing that the second part, the damage, is not happening when these supplements are given with MDMA. The MDMA is probably releasing serotonin the same, it's just not causing neurotoxic damage.
I know some people already take these supplements with MDMA (so it probably doesn't take away from the experience), but my point in posting this is to say that they should be the first thing to go in anybody's regimen, and to suggest specific doses and dosing patterns.

 

[atrollappears]

That's actually quite interesting - I was taking act-l-car daily for working out, including days id roll

Never impacted the roll/high negatively

But since I started taking workout supplements I've never really felt a hang over or any undesired after effects. Crazy!

The only times I felt a bad hangover was before I knew about pre post load sups, and wasn't takin supplements for strength training (trying to go au naturale)

Ah awesome. Did you ever roll with ALC but without pre/postloading?

 

[dezz]

Wow really interesting, considering buying this to see if it helps the comedown

 

[brimmy]

Couldn't further messing around with your serotonin regeneration spark Serotonin Syndrome? I'd rather just wait out the couple weeks tbh.

 

[Darksidesam]

I'm saying that MDMA releases serotonin, but it also damages the serotonin-containing neurons. If it didn't damage those neurons, then your body would be back to normal in a day or two. Because it does damage them, serotonin is actually depleted for weeks or months after MDMA use depending on the amount taken (at least in mice ). So these studies show that there isn't any depletion a couple weeks later, so they're showing that the second part, the damage, is not happening when these supplements are given with MDMA. The MDMA is probably releasing serotonin the same, it's just not causing neurotoxic damage.
I know some people already take these supplements with MDMA (so it probably doesn't take away from the experience), but my point in posting this is to say that they should be the first thing to go in anybody's regimen, and to suggest specific doses and dosing patterns.

Good explanation, See ive always followed a really high in L-Tryptophan diet.
Even that hasn't allowed me to use mdma once a month without minor side effects.

The 'rewiring part' of the neurons is the part where the damage is being repaired.
I understand that many other substances probably have an influence on our serotonin levels.

So all this time, ive basically been using my high in L-Tryptophan diet, paired with a long wait (what started off 30 day, turned into 40 day, and now its about a 50 - 60 day wait) the long wait's purpose being to allow the damage to be repaired, and give the receptors and other parts a chance to repair.

I found even on a serotonin boosting diet, that my experience started to diminish ever so slightly, when waiting only 30 days.

 

[atrollappears]

Couldn't further messing around with your serotonin regeneration spark Serotonin Syndrome? I'd rather just wait out the couple weeks tbh.

Well the idea is that taking ALC and/or ALA block damage, so unless your brain has to be damaged for you to not get serotonin syndrome, then no. And that would be pretty unlikely, because a first time E user's brain is not yet damaged (damage doesn't occur until at least a few hours after effects start) and they don't seem to get serotonin syndrome.

Good explanation, See ive always followed a really high in L-Tryptophan diet.
Even that hasn't allowed me to use mdma once a month without minor side effects.

The 'rewiring part' of the neurons is the part where the damage is being repaired.
I understand that many other substances probably have an influence on our serotonin levels.

So all this time, ive basically been using my high in L-Tryptophan diet, paired with a long wait (what started off 30 day, turned into 40 day, and now its about a 50 - 60 day wait) the long wait's purpose being to allow the damage to be repaired, and give the receptors and other parts a chance to repair.

I found even on a serotonin boosting diet, that my experience started to diminish ever so slightly, when waiting only 30 days.

You know, it might be more useful to take 5-HTP, because all your body does with L-tryptophan is turn it into 5-HTP, and the rate at which it does that is severely limited and really just depends on how much of the relevant enzyme your body decides to make.

But yes, that is exactly why ALC/ALA might be helpful; if they prevent the damage, your brain doesn't have to go about the long process of repair.
In one study, researchers studied the effect of vitamin C (an antioxidant like ALC and ALA, though not as effective, and ALC/ALA do some other beneficial things too) on tolerance to MDMA's serotonin release. Presumably, because oxidative stress is one of the steps through which MDMA damages neurons, an antioxidant like vitamin C would go a long way in preventing the damage. So, some mice (or rats, i forget) were given MDMA, some were given MDMA plus vitamin C, some were given vitamin C, and some were given saline (inactive). A week or so later, they were all given MDMA. The rats given only MDMA the first time showed severely diminished serotonin release, while the rats given MDMA plus vitamin C showed about as much serotonin release as the rats who had been given only vitamin C, and actually more than the rats who had been given saline. This suggests that damage to neurons is responsible for the reduced effects seen when MDMA is used frequently, and so possibly "loss of magic."

Edit: Here's an erowid page about it, explains it very well. http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_article3.shtml They make a good point about the difficulties of extrapolating from rats to humans, note that just that ALA/ALC/vitamin c block neurotoxicity in mice, does not necessarily mean that they block neurotoxicity in humans. Also, the approximation I used for an equivalent human dose of ALC and ALA was based on surface area, which most studies use to correct dosages between species, but it's not a perfect approximation.

 

[Darksidesam]

Na i dont like to take supplements every single day,
I enjoy food.

Ive had a few people try the L-Tryptophan diet,
and some of them said it increased their experience on mdma better than 5-htp did

 

[Folley]

No drug or supplement can completely block serotonin depletion related to MDMA, because then it wouldnt release any sert at all, and would be a complete waste.


These kinds of things can sure HELP, but time is the only thing that is going to heal your brain after a roll.

 

[atrollappears]

The "serotonin depletion" i refer to is specifically long-term, so that which is induced by damage to neurons.

 

[Andronicus]

The evidence is very much preliminary for this and for other anti-oxidant protection studies but there might be some mileage in it. I know some other vitamin studies used vitamins injected directly into the brains of the rats which is obviously very different to dietary use so I'd like to know whether this one is the same.

Plenty of people on this site take anti-oxidants before rolling. Seems to me that it's a low-risk precaution that MIGHT have a huge benefit so why not?

 

[Darksidesam]

like many other harm reduction/mdma boosting techniques.
They haven't really been tried all that much, seeing as mdma is illegal.

But i think studies and research like this are really important, for the people who want treatment for PTSD for example.
If they can be dosed and suffer the bare minimal side effects.

I mean, last thing you want is a patient to be treated with mdma, only to face "terrible tuesday"


I actually have a friend who dosed mdma for first time, who then did some ketamine.
he only took 100mg as i advised him to do so,
but I also suggested he eat some dark choc, bananas etc,

Come tuesday, I asked how he was feeling, he said he was feeling good still,
he didnt get a comedown.

Then he went on about a speed comedown he had, how bad it was, and how he is feeling nothing at all like that. I agreed with him, on my one off experience with speed, my comedown was awful, so so empty.

 

[Andronicus]

No drug or supplement can completely block serotonin depletion related to MDMA, because then it wouldnt release any sert at all, and would be a complete waste.
/QUOTE]

It's not supposed to block depletion it's just preventing the damage to the cells which then reduces depletion. It's not saying there is any effect on the production of serotonin during the trip and there is no implication that this is the case.

 

[atrollappears]

The evidence is very much preliminary for this and for other anti-oxidant protection studies but there might be some mileage in it. I know some other vitamin studies used vitamins injected directly into the brains of the rats which is obviously very different to dietary use so I'd like to know whether this one is the same.

Plenty of people on this site take anti-oxidants before rolling. Seems to me that it's a low-risk precaution that MIGHT have a huge benefit so why not?

The abbreviation "i.p." in the studies stands for intraperitoneal, meaning the injections were in the abdomen.

Then he went on about a speed comedown he had, how bad it was, and how he is feeling nothing at all like that. I agreed with him, on my one off experience with speed, my comedown was awful, so so empty.

Yes, ketamine is theoretically protective against MDMA-induced damage. He should have done it after speed too, would have protected him there too xD
But actually I've never gotten a comedown from speed (or MDMA for that matter) but I used a lot of amphetamine as an adolescent so my brain is probably very resistant to damage (as happens with adolescent rats).

 

[F1n1shed]

Yes blue light has known of these supplements for years , especially ALA. It does not completely block the damage, that is near impossible. If there was a supplement that completely blocked the damage of MDMA i would imagine you would only get half the roll/ half the high. Anyways it does help reduce oxidative stress after but i'm pretty sure your serotonin levels will take near the same amount of time to recover. I remember taking ALA twice with and after a roll and something about the roll felt more pure and clean. Was hard to explain, maybe less ampyness and i remember recovering from those rolls would be a much shorter amount of time.