Subs didn't work :(

[ladyhlove]

Today I started ORT with Subutex. I was really hopeful about it and was let down this morning.

I waited a good 18 hours from my last h (snorted) dose (and barely used that day anyways) and started with 2mg and was observed by the Dr for an hour. Nothing. 2mg more..still nothing.

I went home and wallowed in the pain of my withdrawal slowly getting worse and broke down and called my dealer. After 2 small lines I felt better. Not high, as I would normally, but not sick anymore.

I'm supposed to go in and try 8mg tomorrow. I'm going to give myself a good 14 hours between my last h sniff and my sub dose.

Do you think I need more sub? Or am I feeling better because the sub took longer to kick in or bc of the h? I don't have normal "high" symptoms just am not ill.

I was using about 2g snorted daily for about 8 most before this. Is my habit too much for sub and do I need methadone?

 

[tathra]

if you had a decent heroin habit it can take 8-20 mg to ease the wds. you only took 4mg total? that's not nearly enough unless your habit was pretty minor. at 2g heroin a day you'll prolly need 16+ mg of bupe.

 

[ladyhlove]

They'll only take me to to 8mg tomorrow...I hope so bad it helps.

Just did my last line of h and will redose the sub in 14 hours..will I possibly go into precipitated withdrawal?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I felt relief from 2mg buprenorphine.

It's possible you're not waiting long enough. You should really be in heroin withdrawal for like 2-3 days.

 

[ladyhlove]

Yeah I figure that's what might've happened.

But since I fucked up and used some h today will that mean trouble for me tomorrow when they try 8mg?

 

[cj]

Nah you will be ok tommorow because the bupe is still in your system. Don't give up. This way sucks but it sounds like the doc is good and is looking out for you by starting slow so you don't get PW.

 

[tathra]

I felt relief from 2mg buprenorphine.

It's possible you're not waiting long enough. You should really be in heroin withdrawal for like 2-3 days.

if you're already in wd then a little bit can help but it still might not be enough.

as for the waiting part, I've found that you can take up to 2mg bupe every 2 hrs without precipitating withdrawal, more than that and you're likely to be feeling really shitty for at least 2 hours. definitely don't take 8mg all at once unless its at least 12+ hrs after your last dose of heroin (I've only gone as high as 4mg/2 hrs at that point myself).

 

[bolt77]

I agree with captains that you have not waited long enough..you need to be in serious WDS for the sub to work...however long that takes ... in good times when you have cash ect it is not easy to get that sick on purpose...think long an hard on your decision to take sub and imho it is harder to detox from then opiate..

 

[Captain.Heroin]

if you had a decent heroin habit it can take 8-20 mg to ease the wds. you only took 4mg total? that's not nearly enough unless your habit was pretty minor. at 2g heroin a day you'll prolly need 16+ mg of bupe.

given how pure/impure heroin is and the fact there's fentgate going on, I wonder what the conversions are really like in real-world cases (because conversion charts represent pure dosages, etc. and etc.)

I trust your numbers here, just curious

I used to do about 0.3g of heroin per day, snorted, and I had a hard time affording that. Perhaps I went up to 0.5g per day. I know some of you are laughing at me because some of you would shoot that much in one shot, and go through grams in a day. I get that. I'm not bragging. Not especially proud of any of this.

So from 0.3g to 0.5g per day of snorted heroin I took about 4mg sublingual per day, or shot smaller amounts.

I guess that actually does work out right to what you're saying.

 

[Prescottdave]

Today I started ORT with Subutex. I was really hopeful about it and was let down this morning.

I waited a good 18 hours from my last h (snorted) dose (and barely used that day anyways) and started with 2mg and was observed by the Dr for an hour. Nothing. 2mg more..still nothing.

I went home and wallowed in the pain of my withdrawal slowly getting worse and broke down and called my dealer. After 2 small lines I felt better. Not high, as I would normally, but not sick anymore.

I'm supposed to go in and try 8mg tomorrow. I'm going to give myself a good 14 hours between my last h sniff and my sub dose.

Do you think I need more sub? Or am I feeling better because the sub took longer to kick in or bc of the h? I don't have normal "high" symptoms just am not ill.

I was using about 2g snorted daily for about 8 most before this. Is my habit too much for sub and do I need methadone?

Many people commonly believe the switch to buprenorphine should be painless. This is incorrect. 2-12 mg should be sufficient the first week after that the dose can be lowered. To me this post is a sign that your tolerance is above the ceiling dose. I made the switch from 160 mg of methadone and went into PWD after waiting 80 hours before induction. Instead of jumping ship I waited it out. The first week was really hard but after my body became used to the lowered dose and I adjusted quickly.

I have watched at least 3 different friends all give in because they thought it should be a pain free experience. For some it is and for others it is actually stronger then their DOC. For many long term addicts it is a process. Much better than being tied to the clinic.

Taper your dose down and wait a bit longer and then try getting on subs again. Try them for at least 5 days before giving in.

 

[NicoOregon]

That's actually the best way to start subs. Dose one day, use h, then get back to dosing. I mean no heroin junkie i know can go 24-48 hours before taking subs

 

[ladyhlove]

The 8mg has me feeling a bit better today. Still not 100 percent. (My phone just showed how much of an addict I am by trying to change that to Percocet).

Gonna try and make it through the day

 

[tjmothy]

My reply from your other thread:

I can't speak for methadone but for the bupe induction, either 1 of 3 things happened IME.

1 - IMO this is the most likely explanation. Maybe 4mg just simply was not enough for you. Everyone is different, so I would suggest bumping it up as your doc suggests.

2 - You said you might have felt a little sicker after taking the bupe. This could be PW. But it's weird b/c you had all the symptoms that would make me think you were definitely in moderate WD which should be fine. Just remember the longer you wait the better bupe will work.

3 - As aforementioned, I can't speak to methadone as I have no experience with it, but it's possible that bupe just isn't for you.

Good luck, keep us updated.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

The 8mg has me feeling a bit better today. Still not 100 percent. (My phone just showed how much of an addict I am by trying to change that to Percocet).

Gonna try and make it through the day

it's never really going to be 100%.

You're in acute withdrawal and even with buprenorphine, it's going to suck. It will pass.

 

[tjmothy]

In my experience, although the first few days can kinda suck, I can get some sleep, eat a little, and get through my day. The major WD symptoms should be gone though. Usually I stabilize after 4-7 days, leaving me feeling relatively normal.

 

[elctrikgypsy]

Subs work but take effort..

G'day guys,

This is my first post on the site, however i feel Ive something to add to the convo regarding Subutex..

Miss Lady H, for me having been on H for 13 solid years and tried everything under the sun to quit, from lock up rehab to remote detox in the Thai Jungle.. subs work!!! i think the really important thing to remember is the dose of H your trying to come off from. IME docs do not understand the translation between doses.. 0.5 to 2g plus a day is a lot of gear.. im not convinced that 8mg will even translate.. For me, once i realised that subs worked so well, they became an excuse to binge on H and i got a pattern down to having a good few months binge and then knowing i could stop relively easy using subs it took the power away that withdrawals have.. the fear slowly disappeared.. yet i wasnt using that much, maybe 0.5 a day..

for what my two pennys is worth, take yourself out of the situation if you can.. change yr environment or at least yr daily habits.. reduce yr H to maybe 0.4 and know that the changeover is gonna be a rough ride whatever.. if you can compensate your addict routines with other stuff an easier transition.. where it gets difficult, if you intend on stopping not just sustaining, is when you drop doses.. a drop in sub dosage can bring on massive cravings.. especially when you get down really low and yr dropping by a larger percentage.. i was eventually breaking 2mg into about 4-6 pieces and alternating the days.. it took a long time..

i still use occasionally, although its Vietnamese white here in Aus, not the Afgan brown i was on for years back home in London.. through doing different things and slowly building a new identity, that wasn't me as an addict or drug monster i regained control.. a geographical jump out of the familiar was the biggest advantage for me.. and to be honest if i went back to London, where i haven't been for 10 years..id go see my man..but equally so i know i could go to Laos have a good couple of weeks on the sticky stuff and come back ok..!

These days i have a philosophy of "use but dont abuse".. find a hut in the mountains and make the change..get some good people around..

As for methadone.. STAY AWAY FROM IT!!! i cant emphasise that enough... just check out the half life of that filth.. !!! I got back on the H to get off the Methadone...

beleive in yourself n good luck..peace and light

 

[jdfisse]

As for methadone.. STAY AWAY FROM IT!!! i cant emphasise that enough... just check out the half life of that filth.. !!! I got back on the H to get off the Methadone...

beleive in yourself n good luck..peace and light

And in many cases the half life of Bupe is double that of methadone (37 hours in some cases vs 17 hours). Best wishes.

 

[ladyhlove]

Well, I'm weak as fuck.

Went out on my lunch break and bought a tiny bit of dope. Same as yesterday, took away the remaining wds but no high. I just officially deleted my dope man's number so this can't happen again.

I'm having a tough time just making it through work. I knew i wasn't going to be right as rain, but I still feel just as bad as if I were doing this CT.

 

[ladyhlove]

I'm wondering if 8 mg still isn't enough. If this were working the way it should, shouldn't I not be getting any relief from the dope?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I'm wondering if 8 mg still isn't enough. If this were working the way it should, shouldn't I not be getting any relief from the dope?

Through opiate use, your brain grows a lot of opiate receptors ('upregulation', etc.). If you're taking 8mg suboxone, and can still feel heroin too, it's likely you may require 16mg/day.

It may also not be an ideal medication for you.

A lot of doctors in the US (not sure where you're at) prescribe 8, 16, sometimes 24 or 32 mg per day.

I would suggest your doctor you're still not feeling alright at 8mg and would like to go higher.

If you use too much Suboxone it will feel unpleasant on its own, so don't attempt to take a massive dosage of it. 16mg should be safe.