Bupe Suboxone, Tapering, Quiting, Methadone ? The Truth good and bad ! Shoulda just kicked

[donnie080208]

I dont think the true addiction potential of high dose bupe has been studied throughly enough yet as its a fairly new drug compared to methadone. It may turn out to be the miracle they say. but how many who have started it in the last 4 or 5 years have tried coming of their maintenance dose yet(without resorting to their doc). The anti depressant effects are a positive imo but theses could yet turn out to be a negative, who knows if this permanantly damages the brain chemistry.Its only junkies though, so who cares? right?

 

[jamesBrown]

I dont think the true addiction potential of high dose bupe has been studied throughly enough yet as its a fairly new drug compared to methadone. It may turn out to be the miracle they say. but how many who have started it in the last 4 or 5 years have tried coming of their maintenance dose yet(without resorting to their doc). The anti depressant effects are a positive imo but theses could yet turn out to be a negative, who knows if this permanantly damages the brain chemistry.Its only junkies though, so who cares? right?

Yes, it is fairly new compared to methadone, but it still has been around for a long enough time for us to know how it effects brain chemistry. It was "discovered" in 1968 ad the average person who uses it uses it for less than 42 years, so I would say that we atleast have a fair amount of data on how long term use effects our brain.

 

[SubDude]

I tell people to maintain at a dose lower than 2 mg's for the majority of there sub maintanence and then when they want to quit, lower there dose to about 0.2-0.5mg's and stay at that dose for about a month, maybe more, maybe a little less....and then jump off. And sometiems I even reccommend going from 0.3 mg's/day to 0.2mg's every other day for a while and then jump off.
People are ALWAYS confusing my advice with the people who choose to jump off at 1-2mg's after only being on it for a short period of time. I am constantly stressing the importance of maintaining at these tiny 0.3-0.5mg doses for LONG periods of time before jumping off. that is one of the big differences between my methods and the way all the people who say they have jumped off at 1-2mg's with bad experiences. Atleast, when I have asked alot of the people who have jumped off at 1-2mg's and had a bad experience, they all have told me that they were usually at a much higher dose(12-32mg's on average) and then tapered to 1-2mg's for only a few days before jumping off. There is a monumental difference there. Also, I dont reccommend jumping off at 1-2mg's like I said above....i say 0.2-0.5 is a better dose and thats only after you are at that dose for a long time, much longer than most people would think is needed.

Let me tell you my experience... I slowly tapered from 12mg to .25mg over a period of about 6-7 mos. I got down to 2mg rather quickly. I was in no hurry so I took my time to get down from there.

I finally got down to .25mg and was there for about 2wks when I jumped. The end result was that I had horrible WD's to the point I didn't last 48hrs. I could not sleep a wink had RLS so bad I couldn't stay in bed at night. All the other symptoms weren't severe but were extremely uncomfortable. I tried 50mg seroquel and 1mg xanax for sleep/RLS and they didn't help at all. I'll never forget how good it felt to finally take that first dose and get back on... I guess you could say I'm pretty much 180 degrees different than you... even though I used a similar strategy.

I don't relate this to scare people but this was reality for me. I suspect you are at one end of the extreme and I'm closer to the other.

 

[jamesBrown]

yea, like i say, some people respond differently. that sucks for you man.

 

[DkBlaze1]

I donno why talking about our thoughts on the nature of addiction is wrong. To go through a good learning procces you need to have someone to argue with. yes before it wasnt right. but have been civil the past few pages and was geting to a place of somtthing positive and understnad.. yet Since I dont fall into lock step with your Ideas and your opion. then I will b Infracted and removed.. banned disowned.. I donno its just not very helpful to say this sorta thing when the convo has been rather civil for the past few pages. and the Idea that addiction has to do something negitive to ones life is just an extreme form.

It totally just comes down to the fact that if you dont need it to stay alive and your taking it daily its most likly addictive.. This just brings back to the fact that you dont learn the skils you would have had you not just taken a pill.. theropy with pills is better then just pills but it still lacks the power just theropy has. when you and your mind and soul are driving the train and you know its all you..

and once you stop taking these meds you notice that you were Dependent. (addiction and dependent are almost interchangeable to me ) ..

I hope this doesnt cross the line But I think that this talk about the nature of addiction is such a big part of what tapering and quiting subs is about.. this sorta idea( quiting subs) is only ever going to be possible if you have a set Idea on what addiction is and why chemiclly ur fucked ect ect..

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^if its been civil and on topic then I apologize. People reported it so I addressed it and admittedly didn't read a lot of the exchange between the two of you because you guys post a shitload.

On another note: for god's sakes, there is a huge difference between physical dependence and addiction. When someone is taking a necessary medicine for a medical condition then whether or not it produces dependence should be a non-issue.

I used narcotic analgesics for over 3 years daily, extended release pills with IR pills for BT pain for much of that and barely doubled my dose total in that time. This medication allowed me to work and go to school and lead a normal life after having to quit my job and leave school when the pain became unbearable. I was absolutely physically dependent and would have mild withdrawals if I stopped abruptly but there's no reason you need to stop abruptly when taking medication appropriately and therapeutically. This applies to maintenance medication as well.

Addiction is worlds apart from this... addiction hinders your ability to go to school, hold down a job and in general progress in life. Addiction has psychological and social components that physical dependence does not affect whatsoever.

After a lot of time living with chronic pain, I found other ways to manage it and made the decision to have a little more pain in my life then keep needing larger doses of narcotics for the rest of my life and I tapered off without a problem. Was I an addict? According to diagnostic criteria, absolutely not. My use of painkillers didn't interfere with my life, it allowed me to HAVE a life.

There isn't absolute consensus on why people experience PAWS but the general theory is that it is a combination of the physical and psychological effects that extended drug abuse cause. I was taking an average of 100-150mg of oral morphine or equivalent doses of other opioids daily for over 3 years straight and although not large doses compared to some, didn't have a trace of PAWS symptoms.

I believe that PAWS has more to do with the radical adjustment from numbing all of your problems with drugs to having to live with them daily. Its a major change to go from getting high all the time to trying to live life on LIFE's terms and for this reason I believe that PAWs, although having physical components and some causation, is far more psychological and why I think more than a slow taper off sub is necessary to address and mitigate the symptoms and give people a better chance at living a sober life and not relapsing.

 

[jamesBrown]

^if its been civil and on topic then I apologize. People reported it so I addressed it and admittedly didn't read a lot of the exchange between the two of you because you guys post a shitload.

On another note: for god's sakes, there is a huge difference between physical dependence and addiction. When someone is taking a necessary medicine for a medical condition then whether or not it produces dependence should be a non-issue.

I used narcotic analgesics for over 3 years daily, extended release pills with IR pills for BT pain for much of that and barely doubled my dose total in that time. This medication allowed me to work and go to school and lead a normal life after having to quit my job and leave school when the pain became unbearable. I was absolutely physically dependent and would have mild withdrawals if I stopped abruptly but there's no reason you need to stop abruptly when taking medication appropriately and therapeutically. This applies to maintenance medication as well.

Addiction is worlds apart from this... addiction hinders your ability to go to school, hold down a job and in general progress in life. Addiction has psychological and social components that physical dependence does not affect whatsoever.

After a lot of time living with chronic pain, I found other ways to manage it and made the decision to have a little more pain in my life then keep needing larger doses of narcotics for the rest of my life and I tapered off without a problem. Was I an addict? According to diagnostic criteria, absolutely not. My use of painkillers didn't interfere with my life, it allowed me to HAVE a life.

There isn't absolute consensus on why people experience PAWS but the general theory is that it is a combination of the physical and psychological effects that extended drug abuse cause. I was taking an average of 100-150mg of oral morphine or equivalent doses of other opioids daily for over 3 years straight and although not large doses compared to some, didn't have a trace of PAWS symptoms.

I believe that PAWS has more to do with the radical adjustment from numbing all of your problems with drugs to having to live with them daily. Its a major change to go from getting high all the time to trying to live life on LIFE's terms and for this reason I believe that PAWs, although having physical components and some causation, is far more psychological and why I think more than a slow taper off sub is necessary to address and mitigate the symptoms and give people a better chance at living a sober life and not relapsing.

I cant help but say that all this^^^^ is what I have been saying from the get go. I guess it takes a mod to say it for anyone to take you seriously and not respond back with harsh disrespectful comments. thanks Cane for posting that so I can atleast say that I have a moderator who has the same thoughts on this subject as me because to some people I guess, that makes a difference.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^meh, the little word in bold under my name shouldn't mean my words carry any more weight than yours. Being a mod doesn't mean I know more than anyone, just that I have time and don't mind doing the dick work.

 

[jamesBrown]

^meh, the little word in bold under my name shouldn't mean my words carry any more weight than yours. Being a mod doesn't mean I know more than anyone, just that I have time and don't mind doing the dick work.

I agree but I know you know that that little word in bold under your name actually does have impact on how people view your posts, and how much respect they give you. There is no denying that and I know you wont even try to deny it...your a smart cookie.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^thanks man, I doubt people give me respect due to my title or knowledge-base as much as my ability to INFRACT THEIR ASSES :D

 

[jamesBrown]

^thanks man, I doubt people give me respect due to my title or knowledge-base as much as my ability to INFRACT THEIR ASSES :D

agreed....but i also think your ability to type with above average grammar(which is a suprisingly rare "talent" nowadays) and your extensive knowledge on certain subjects also helps you get treated with more respect......especially because your a mod. Someone with even more knowledge and even better grammar than you could very easily be treated like a bum simply because his post count isnt high enough or he isnt a mod or doesnt carry some special title.
I can't tell you how many people I have seen talk shit to someone simply because they dont have very many posts, or they havent been a member very long, or they DO have a lot of posts but they arent a mod(assuming that the person SHOULD have become a mod by then since he/she has so many posts). Lots of people dont understand that some people choose not to become mods on there own and just because they have the experience and what not to become one, doesnt mean that they SHOULD become one or else there is something majorly wrong with them and thats why they havent become a mod yet.
We should focus on harm reduction and quality posts instead of post count and status. Allthough.....i still wet my pants at the thought of your ability to infract me...

 

[dankstersauce]

Suboxone has been absolute hell for me to quit. I've been on and off bupe for almost 5 years and the withdrawal for me has been terrible. Even with great taper plans etc. The longer you stay on it the longer it becomes normal and then when you quit everything goes nuts.

Right now I'm 2-3 days clean from suboxone (via clonodine, klonopin, jwh and kratom...and advil/naproxen/benadryl). IMHO depending how long your on it and it can be just as hard as any other opiate to quit. (IMO). At least with heroin or oxy you feel better after a week...with bupe it just drags on and on and on.

Looking back on all these years I wish I had just went cold turkey. Or did like a 1-2 week low dose detox. Its a good drug and it'll save lives but its not a choice to take lightly. It is definitely addictive.

 

[jamesBrown]

yes, getting on suboxone is a very serious decision as it can be a very addictive drug. You are right, it is not a decision to be taken lightly.

 

[SkagKush]

indeed

 

[DkBlaze1]

Suboxone has been absolute hell for me to quit. I've been on and off bupe for almost 5 years and the withdrawal for me has been terrible. Even with great taper plans etc. The longer you stay on it the longer it becomes normal and then when you quit everything goes nuts.

Right now I'm 2-3 days clean from suboxone (via clonodine, klonopin, jwh and kratom...and advil/naproxen/benadryl). IMHO depending how long your on it and it can be just as hard as any other opiate to quit. (IMO). At least with heroin or oxy you feel better after a week...with bupe it just drags on and on and on.

Looking back on all these years I wish I had just went cold turkey. Or did like a 1-2 week low dose detox. Its a good drug and it'll save lives but its not a choice to take lightly. It is definitely addictive.

Hey man thank you for this post. It was pretty much my reason for starting this thread so people could understand that Quiting suboxone for alot of people is not the way it is made out to b and that they are better off trying and failing at least 2-3 times before ever trying the suboxone route..

Its tough though to see this side of things on this forum. because it seems as though the majority of people who do stop taking suboxone are the lucky few whos bodys are good to them and let them get off easy.I wish daily My body was like this, but alas It is not. Currently I am on .5-1 mg a day of subutex.

When I do take days off, I still get sweety as hell, a runny nose and ass, also the level of Dysphoria is so freaking high. ( the Bad Pins and needles, goose bumps and shit) the way I got the most time between doses was this. I took .5-1mg in the morning when I woke up, Then did my day and fell to sleep.(by the time im going to bed and falling asleep, I have no W.D symptoms.) But When I wake up I am drenched in sweat. and I always make a point to stay up as late as possible so Im able to sleep as much into the Detox symptoms as possible.. Anyway so Once awake Im not feeling good the dysphoria is shity as all hell. And I am wanting my next dose from then untill the night time when I take it. 2 times I was able to take ritalin and stay up through the night playing games ect. but this was such a shitty night i rarly want to do it untill I am actully going to kick.

Heroin withdrawl symptoms from coming off 1 Gram of dope IV A day. for 1 year and prior to that 3 months of daily 240 mg oxy a day.. the dope was East coast NJ quality powder.

Duration 5-7 days till all this is gone but slight dysphoria that lasts 2-3 weeks

Sweats 5
Dysphoria 8
Eye,nose watering 4
Ass watering 8
Restless leg syndrome 4-6
Mental obsession to find/use specific drug (heroin) 10
Mental obsession with how bad the W.D are 10
(last 2 are linked to but diffrent in suboxone this is why i have them both there.)

Cotton Fever feelings

Duration 6-12 hours. Ive gotten to sleep from utter fatigue for the w/d symptoms most of the times within 4-5 hours.

Sweats 10
Dysphoria 10
Eye,nose watering 7
Ass watering (10 if the first shitdidnt handle it the 4 times i got Cotton fever )
Restless leg syndrome 8
Mental obsession to find/use specific drug 0
Mental obsession with how bad the W.D are 15 (i know its not w.d but the symptoms are the same to me )

Thoughts about level of severity. This is the closest to the Feelings of Cotton fever. so it is extremely severe but also rather short if you get through the first 4 days you have made it if you really want to stay clean..

Suboxone/ subutex feelings caused by stoping .5-1 mg Daily

Longest gone without bupe is 36-48hours ish.. Have read 100s of posts and talked to hundos of people that tell me that suboxone withdrawls are the same from the first feelings you got from the W/d To months later.. this is scary
and very hard for my mind to wrap around.

Sweats 7
Dysphoria 7
Eye,nose watering 6
Ass watering 4
Restless leg syndrome 2
Mental obsession to find/use specific drug (BUPE) 8
Mental obsession with how bad the W.D are 12

Thoughts on severity. It is considerably smaller in severity but still rather high, and the mental obsession stays with you for so long that it makes it harder to stay off a relapse. If the reports I hear so often are not lies ecct. Then I will have about 2-4 months 4 hopfully being a max. But that long before feeling normal like i would have after 5-7 days off heroin. and then I believe a small amount of PAWS stay with you for a period after that. but this is not fact more so conjecture. (the paws part after the 2-4 months the mean time for the W/d is 3 months. )

Over all I think this sorta table is good to show that for me the path that I should have picked was, to just be a man and kick. but now I am going to have to fight a very long battle to kick ...

in regaurds to addiction, I understand that People do not think that if A drug is being taken as perscribed it has the ability to b addictive. like it can't cause you to become an addict when a doc perscribes it. this is simply incorrect when I thought that this was the case i simply had a convo with my doctor who gives me subs and he explained to me that yes I am an addict dealing with a addiction , and the substance is BUPE.

He explained to me that I am both physically and mentally addicted. He then said that he hoped I understood this point and that suboxone is replacing one addiction (heroin) for another (BUpe) and the reason this is better then just heroin is because it is always avalible so I dont waste time searching for it and money to buy it. But just because I dont feind I should never believe this isnt an addiction that I should be slowly tappering off. W.e you take a substance that plays with the plessure receptors in the brain it is most often always an addictive substance, there are of course drugs like SSRI's that are hard to believe are addictive and you being an addict to them but alas I do and they are addictive.

If you take pain killers for a injury, you will get addicted if your on them long enough. because this causes a chemical imbalence to occure. your natural opiates will b left by the way side due to them being weak in compairison to man made opiates. So once this happens when you get taken off the med because the injury has gotten better. you begin to tapper or the doc might just cold turkey you, and without any suprise you experince w.d, this is indicative of you having become addicted to the substance. thus you were an addict.

you dont need to act like a junkie to b an addict, people on benzos are all addicts for the most part. that drug you build tolerance super fast, become unable to not be anxious w.o it.

Pretty much I take the simplest most true to the word definition of addiction.

****Addiction is a persistent, compulsive dependence on a behavior or substance. The term has been partially replaced by the word dependence for substance abuse. Addiction has been extended, however, to include mood-altering behaviors or activities..****

Suboxone falls under this as well as benzos, SSRI's, methadone,, and so many other drugs people do not believe are addition causeing.

IF I stop a drug today that i have been taken daily would it affect me negitively. If it would in anyway, even just if quality of life would go down. this would b a sign of addiction for me. This is me being Dependent on a Drug which means I am addicted on w/e substance I am dependent on. the word is interchangable.

I learned that I am dependent on the days were My appointment with the Sub doc would get messed up or I had a problem filing the script and had to wait 3 days.. this showed me very clearly that I was dependent on a perscribed med. other meds i need are adderal and ambein. and heroin.

**** http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Psychological+addiction ****

 

[DkBlaze1]

And please folks if you dissagree Do me the respect to read these
http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-Buprenorphine-Suboxone-Addictive


This one shows both sides of Suboxones addictiveness and a better over veiw of its affects once discontinued.

http://www.steadyhealth.com/suboxone_addiction_withdrawal_t142911.html
yes its a forum just read the first page tho its good insight.. i think its a large change kicking subs will suck for most people so its a warnign to all them.. I just dont get he feeling many people have actully done it on this forum,,, and tappering is soooooo fucking easy. no one really feels that bad doing that. i got from 16-.5 never really stressing but cold turkey is hell
PLEASE READ THIS SITE IF YOU DO NOT READ ANY OTHERS This is KEY TO KNOW before starting suboxone

http://www.thatspoppycock.com/library/addiction/suboxone-faq/

this is a quote from the aboves is suboxone addictive section .. ^^^^
"Is Suboxone addictive?
Yes. The active ingredient in Suboxone that keeps withdrawal at bay is buprenorphine, a partial opioid agonist. Buprenorphine has an extremely high binding affinity to opioid receptors in the brain, but because it is only a partial agonist, full effects, as produced by full agonists (e.g. oxycodone, heroin), are not present. Many people are grossly misinformed about the addictive nature of buprenorphine, and claim that there is no withdrawal syndrome, which is incorrect;however, because of its long half-life and partial agonist properties, the withdrawal is longer, but milder than that of full agonists. Some people have horror stories of their attempts to get off of Suboxone, but most of them come from people who did not taper properly. The bottom line is Suboxone is addictive, and eventually some withdrawal has to be dealt with. Suboxone will soften the fall, and withdrawal from it is certainly not as bad as withdrawal from oxycodone or heroin."

I mean the underlined is what I have been trying to say throughout this whole thread.. if you get withdrawal symptoms from a drug "bottom line it is addictive"..

I truly hate argueing about this, I just think that its scary that some people deny the obvious. People are misinformed and confused. This thread has fell victim to denial of the facts that are present and bold.(most likly due to a very comman trait of those with addiction problems. the trait is the ability to deny or justify anything even if it is irrational, to feed/serve our addiction. the 1st step in aa has to do with admiting the fact that you have an issue, this is the 1st step to any recovery, and if I am unable to admit suboxone is addictive ect I will b unable to quit.) I never thought these things were said on purpose or trying to mislead. I have finnally put together a post with facts form other sites that are liget not just anti suboxone sites. but sites that give the whole picture.

I would like to know who has come off suboxone and there experince with it. and if it was succesful or not. Succes to this question is having two years completly clean. And if a relapse happened after 2 years out from last suboxone dose it is no longer related in my mind.

please explain your experince and what you delt with due to it..


very Importent is IF you did not experince w/d symptoms then please explain in exacting detail what your tapper plan was. your period on suboxone, your jump off dose. your length and use of reall opiate. and your ROA of both subs and the real opiate. If you used any drugs to make the W.D's far less extreme. explain which they were and ur dose, and how many Times daily taken to hold off W/D. and anything im missing that you feel would b helpful please add. also a chart like i did breaking down the W/D of your full opiate experince and then of suboxone w/d broken down and put int o numbers

 

[DkBlaze1]

So how are people doing with there Suboxone treatment.

For those who have stoped it all together, how is it going and how long has it been since you stoped, what sorta Withdrawls are happening if any.

For those who are trying to stop lets here your plan and doseing guide sorta stuff.

For those who are Tappering lets hear how its going what your tapper plan is and how its going in terms of withdrawls and mental need to dose even if w/drawls are not present.

And anyone doing the Methadone to Suboxone switch lets hear how thats going and your thoughts on it. and Issues your having with it if any. and also your plan for once on suboxone.

To anyone who is content were they are on there suboxone plan. either because there content because it stops heroin urges. or because they are not interested in stoping yet and or like me unable to due to legal issues.(fearful that when I quit I will need Benzos to aid in my cold turkey from 1 mg daily .) Well for anyone in this boat, mabye you can just lay out why your content. If you have a plan to tapper and quit, please explain that.

If anyone has any other thoughts, you may have about the subjects please do share..

I am not speaking to anyone directly I am just hoping to breath some life back into this thread with some thought provoking questions.. either way I really wish the best for anyone and hope to hear some good stuff..

 

[CitioKid]

So how are people doing with there Suboxone treatment.

For those who have stoped it all together, how is it going and how long has it been since you stoped, what sorta Withdrawls are happening if any.

For those who are trying to stop lets here your plan and doseing guide sorta stuff.

For those who are Tappering lets hear how its going what your tapper plan is and how its going in terms of withdrawls and mental need to dose even if w/drawls are not present.

And anyone doing the Methadone to Suboxone switch lets hear how thats going and your thoughts on it. and Issues your having with it if any. and also your plan for once on suboxone.

To anyone who is content were they are on there suboxone plan. either because there content because it stops heroin urges. or because they are not interested in stoping yet and or like me unable to due to legal issues.(fearful that when I quit I will need Benzos to aid in my cold turkey from 1 mg daily .) Well for anyone in this boat, mabye you can just lay out why your content. If you have a plan to tapper and quit, please explain that.

If anyone has any other thoughts, you may have about the subjects please do share..

I am not speaking to anyone directly I am just hoping to breath some life back into this thread with some thought provoking questions.. either way I really wish the best for anyone and hope to hear some good stuff..

I have been off of suboxon for maybe 4 months now, and off of all opiates used to help me taper off the suboxone for more than two months.

The withdrawals are completely gone and have been for a long time. I sleep fine, no longer have rls or creepy crawley skin, I no longer feel drastic temperature fluctuations, and aside from some dysphoria (which has improved from horrid depression to just a less than great mood) I am fine. Sometimes I feel the wd's come back and I feel antsy and sweaty, but it's always all just in my head.

Getting off opiates, for the most part, only really sucks for about 6 weeks. I always pictured months and months of misery, but it isn't that bad.

 

[DkBlaze1]

very positive, and really happy to hear your doing well, could u explain ur tapper plan and then how u jumped off.. like u said u used other opiates to help the sub W/d What did u use and how much and what was the dose of suboxone u jumped off from. also how long were you on suboxone for and before that how long were you on real opiates.. sorry for all the questions but i think there worth asking..

 

[edtree]

JamesBrown, we are the same animal!!!
I hate where my life's at (especially where I live) but I jsut cannot walk out on my family and taking opiates not only improves my issues with pain but also this mind-set. I want to kick the oxy habit though because they won't give me the dose I require but I just cannot get my GP to put me on Sub or Bupe. Anyway the thing is when Im full of morphine I'm a better person and I really can't see what up with that either. It's just the morning craving and the fact that 4x80mg is not enough that I find a worry!