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Tapering Suboxone taper journal & advice

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kickin74

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Jan 10, 2017
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Hi everyone. I have been a LONG time lurker here. I have read as many threads on suboxone as I can, my eyes are burning. I thought I would post my journey so far and ask for some help.

I started in pain management about 6 years ago. Started on vicodins and ended up on oxy 160mg daily. It has wrecked my life. I was running out of my script in a week. I would then scramble around trying to find whatever I can just so that I wouldn't be sick until I got my hands on some more, you know the drill. Its insidious. I need a change and I am ready. I am in need of some advice and some friends.

I know that a lot of people can cold turkey their withdrawal, I can't. I admit that I am a chicken with no willpower to push through it, I have 3 kids and it's not an excuse, but I just can't do it. So I went to the suboxone doc who had no problem writing me out a script for 28 pills right away. I was told to take 2 a day, of course I know that was way too much. So here is what I did. I am sure I didn't do it the best way, but it was the best I could at the time. I hope I didn't set myself up for more trouble.

Thursday I waited the 24 hours until I couldn't take the withdrawal any longer, I took about 2mg, an hour later still felt bad, so i took another 2, started feeling better, that evening I started getting very anxious and sweating, so I took the rest. That was 8mg for the day

Friday, Saturday and Sunday I took 8mg. I was feeling tired the first few days. I am feeling stable now. I am sure I inducted myself probably with too much. I dont know why I ended up taking 8mg each day. I guess I was so afraid of being sick with anything less.

Monday I took 6mg total. Split doses. 3mg and 3mg later in the evening.

Tuesday. I took 2mg this am and that is it so far. So I am wondering if I should take another 2mg tonight, making that 4mg today and stay on that for 3 days and then reducing 25% and so on??
I have some stomach issues going on and sweating through the day.

I am supposed to go back to the doctor next week but really don't want too. I am sure that I have enough pills left to do a taper, do you think so? My reason for being so concerned is that I am scared since I am an addict, will I need to be on suboxone longer to train my thinking so that I don't want to take any pills? I always hear that withdrawal is the easy part, it's staying clean that is hard. I guess that is why people go on longtime maintenance?

Anyway, I would love to get some advice. Thank you so much for reading!
 
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Hey kickin74, welcome and congrats! I think just making the decision to stop opiates is huge!

I wish I could give you some sage advice about the suboxone, but I've only been on it for about a month so I'm new to this game too. But I just wanted to share a bit of my experience with the subs so far... I started out similar to you in that I only wanted to use the subs to help with WD from the oxy. I was determined to only use it for a few days at the most. And actually just like you I started out at 8mg my first day, went to 6mg my second day and then the third day went to 4mg. I stayed at the 4mg until about a week ago where I then dropped to 3mg, and I've stayed at that since, but will prob drop to 2.5 or 2 in the next couple days.

I know I'm just speaking for myself when I say this, but I'm 100% certain that staying on the suboxone for this entire time (albeit only one month) is what has kept me from going back to oxy. I was in a horrible daily routine of snorting pills at very specific times throughout the day and honestly my first few days sober I still missed that whole routine of things. It was a very weird and unexpected feeling... but I actually missed the whole process of getting things set up to prepare to get high. Being on the suboxone helped me put that routine behind me (I can honestly say I don't even think about that routine anymore). And there have been days, especially early on, where I know I would have gone back to my dealer but I didn't bc I was able to tell myself that it would be a waste bc I had the subs in my system and wouldn't even feel the high.. and bc of that I've made it thru those moments and now I can say they haven't been popping up at all. But I'm VERY glad I ended up taking the suboxone longer than I had planned on, otherwise I know I wouldn't have made it to one month.

I know everyone's experience is different, and I've definitely read differing opinions as to how long one should stay on suboxone, but what helped me was people who told me to do what felt right for me, and I think so far that's what Ive done... with help and guidance from many here along the way!

There are some great people in this forum and I'm sure they'll chime in with some sage advice, bc as I said I'm very new to this as well. Good luck and congrats on your choice to get clean!
 
2dark2ee Thank you for your response & I just got finished reading your whole thread and it made me stop and think, I've been addicted for 6-7 years now, its not going to be easy for me to quit my routine in a matter of a few days or weeks! I was actually thinking that the route you are taking may better suit me. I am not going to even lie, but the past few days have had me thinking about pills, its been in passing, but its still there! I am not even 100% sure I would turn them away if given the chance, isn't that awful? I guess thats the addict in me. I need to train my mind in a new way of thinking and gain some self control.

So I dont want to rush myself and be unprepared, however I dont want to become physically addicted to another thing, you understand I am sure.

I am so glad I am not alone, maybe we can keep in touch through here together and chronicle our journey. Its nice to have the support. I am going to stay at the 6mg for a few more days and then do the dropping. I guess as long as I am reducing it should be ok?

Thanks for the input and I hope you are doing well and look forward to chatting with you through this. I also look forward to anyone else who would like to comment or offer advice.
 
I used opioids, primarily methadone, hydrocodone, oxycodone, morphine and heroin, for a solid six years. It took me another five years of trial and error before I really had my shit figured out.

Those last five years included lots of failed attempts at the abstinence-only approach (which I found very ill suited for my needs and goals), 1.5 years of buprenorphine treatment, intermittent continued use of heroin, and finally 2.5 years of methadone. Only until methadone was able to remain abstinent from all other opioids for more than a few months. Getting off methadone required a six plus month taper.

I mention all of this to point out that, if you have been using for a couple or more years, it is most likely you will need a lot of support in your early recovery if you are to find success. Lots of good treatment, that you find works well for your individual needs. When it comes to opioid users, the gold standard of treatment is outpatient based ORT, either an extended detox or a period of maintenance (along with an extended detox), if you are to successfully transition of your DOC(s) and achieve lasting success in abstinence.

If you are already dependent on opioids when you start using buprenorphine to get off them, you will not become more dependent on them simply by utilizing the buprenorphine. Particularly if you are employing a taper, even if the taper lasts month or years, to manage your dosage of buprenorphine - if anything by using and slowly reducing your dose of buprenorphine, again even if it's over the course of years, you will become less dependent - less addicted to opioids - if anything.
 
What is ORT? Thanks for your comment toothpastedog. So do you think that the way I'm doing this can be relatively easy? Meaning, not to bad of withdrawals? I know I need to retrain my way of thinking, & I'm trying to keep my time busy, so I'm hoping this can work for me. I have 3 kids we homeschool so that helps & just wanting to be free from pills helps. I'm so sick of the games we play just to get them, ugh. So much time wasted! I'm so angry at myself. I hope tapering will work.
 
Generally you want your dose reductions to be about 10%, not 25%. Also tapers are much more effective when you are reducing your dose no more often than once ever four-seven days (it takes a minimum of four days for your body to fully adjust to the new dose). Now, if you have a very limited supply of buprenorphine to work with, you must make do with what you have.

ORT is opioid replacement therapy. It includes buprenorphine acute detoxes (using buprenorphine for only 1-3 weeks), buprenorphine extended detoxs (using buprenorphine for the acute detox and to address post acute withdrawal syndrome, for a period of 6 months), buprenorphine maintenance (using buprenorphine to stabilize your lifestyle over the course of about 2-3 years, sometime more); then there is methadone acute detoxes (a three week methadone taper to get you off your DOC(s)), methadone extended detox (methadone detox and taper that lasts 6 months) and methadone maintenance (using methadone for a period of 2-3 years, sometimes more, to stabilize your lifestyle).

How much total buprenorphine do you have to work with? Can you get more? Where are you getting it? Is outpatient based buprenorphine treatment available? Generally, considering someone who has been using as long and as much as you have, an extended detox or maintenance is recommended. People seem to be most successful when using ORT for periods of 6 months to about 2-3 years. A short term detox, lasting 1-3 weeks, can be very useful in simply getting off your opioids, but provides no significant long term support in your early recovery.

It will take 90 days for your brain to really stabalize and only then it will begin heal from all the exogenous endorphins you've been using (in the forms of your opioid use). This is why I generally highly encourage people to use ORT for a minimum for three months, first stabilizing then slowly tapering off. Depending on how you feel, you can either jump off at three months, or continue for six if you feel it would be helpful. The concern is of course if you only have a super limited supply or are forced to secure you buprenorphine from the black market as opposed to a doctor or clinic.

See the three month taper schedule I have suggested to 2dark2see: https://bluelight.org/vb/threads/81...ut-excited?p=13906603&viewfull=1#post13906603

Also see this addiction to the SL Directory I have just added (thanks to your question about ORT :)): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874458/#S16title
 
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I have 22 pills right now, I go back next week for 28 more. It's this skeevy doc up the street from me, he makes you pay cash. I can go again but really don't want to go every month after that. Do you think that's enough to do a 3 month slower taper & will my brain heal while on the subs? Thank you SO much!
 
Are they 8mg pills? 400mg of buprenorphine is more than enough for a three month taper, so going back to get another 28 pills would be ideal.

My pleasure, always :) Keep up the good work kickin!

The best part about an extended 3-6 month taper (which will be possible with 400mg, you will be able to jump off at the three month mark or extend it to the full six if you feel better about that when the time comes) is that is guarantees you'll be able to remain fully function to take care of your kids!
 
Yes they are 8mg pills. That's my number 1 fear was being sick and not being able to take care of the kids. Ugh, so many days of being to sick to get up without a pill! I hate myself for those days. You know sometimes these forums can scare you, I was reading some other place where they say suboxone is like the worst thing that you can do since the WD is horrendous, that had me SO scared. Now I'm feeling much better having talked with you all here. I guess as long as I continue to reduce my doses I should be ok, right? I will say that today I feel a little "high" and I'm not sure that is possible. But I've read where people can get buzzed off of it. I'm even on a lower dose too! This medicine is crazy but if it keeps me from abusing pills and buying them, then I'm cool with the process.
 
kickin74 said:
Oh and will my brain start to heal while I'm on the subs? Thanks again!
Click to expand...

i was told that it takes a total of 5 or more years until the brain is 'back to normal', i've been sober going on 5 months now and i still suffer from PAWS (post acute withdrawal symptoms ),

if you taper right, then your brain will have less receptors, which is a good thing! because right now your brain has to find a job for all those receptors in your brain, and over time and tapering the right way then your brain will have less and less receptors (meaning you wont feel like you have to take more to feel normal), i'm not a doctor i'm just saying this from my experience.

peace
<3
 
Oh buprenorphine can definitely get you high. If the buzz is bothering you, simply reduce your dose when you use it tomorrow a bit. But don't be afraid of the buzz - feeling good and keeping cravings at bay is EXACTLY what the medication is supposed to do. Perhaps, try and enjoy it a little, while keeping in mind it is only a temporary thing. That worked really well for me on the more enjoyable lower doses of methadone I was on for some time.

Yes, as long as you continue to steadily, slowly decrease your dose about once a week you will be fine. Especially if you can get yourself some gabapentin and clonidine (and ideally a bit of diazepam or clonazepam, preferably the former) for the eventual jump off at the end of your taper, you will be amazed at how inaccurate all those horror stories about buprenorphine withdrawal are when you use the medication properly, as it is intended.

Sadly most doctors don't even seem to know how to use it as intended, so it should be no real surprise so many people struggle when they get off of it. It's really a shame considering how useful it can be as a foundation for one's lasting recovery.

And yes, once you have stabilized on the buprenorphine (which is sounds like you already have if you're feeling any euphoric effects from it; the pleasurable effects of the buprenorphine usually disparate by the two week point BTW, with at most only a tiny, barely perceptible buzz remaining; don't expect the buzz you're experiencing now to last into the second month) and begin to slowly reduce your dose, your brain will begin to heal.

You will still need to give it a full three months off all opioids/exogenous endorphins for it to really start healing more rapidly. The stability buprenorphine provides your opioid receptor systems will allow this process of healing to begin far before you stop taking it however. As you're coming to know well, the process, particularly early in recovery, takes at times an excruciatingly long (or so it seems in subjective terms) amount of time.

But you can do this. Just keep you head up and stick to your plan, adjusting it as necessary and listing to your body and intuition to guide you. It's all just a matter of being strategic and well informed. You got this.

IME the length of time it takes for a more "full recovery" to happen is somewhat immaterial. I mean, I'll be in recovery in one very real sense from my issues with substance use for far, far longer than five or ten years in all probability. I am okay with this, as over the last three or five years my QOL has improved so much, even if I never got there I'd be so much infinitely more happier than were I was five or ten years ago.

I have found the crucial time to be in the first 90 days to the end of the second or third year. This tends to be where most of the foundational changes are made that really can propel one into lasting recovery. This is where I'd really focus your efforts, particularly as it's what is right in front of you now, and not worry about how long "full recovery" (I don't even know what that would be like TBH) will take. The increase in your QOL as you end your reliance of opioids to regulate your mood will be so significant you'll be totally fine with however long it needs to take in the end.
 
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Ds thanks for the response! I'm really hoping it won't take 5 years! I need all the brain help I can get, lol.
 
Tooth that all makes so much sense, thank you! I told my husband I felt high & he was like "enjoy it while it last!" I mean, I'm not out shopping for anything & honestly, it feels like I've taken a roxy 30 without the euphoria, if that makes sense. The first few days I was so tired, no energy, not eating & then yesterday when I went to 6mg it all changed. But I'm cool with it, lol. I'm just doing what I have to do, staying busy with the housework & kids. I've ordered a few books on addiction & recovery. For some reason I'm having this internal battle where I think I'm not really an addict because I never did any drugs until pain management. I wouldn't touch a pill, nothing! Once I started at PM I started going through pills like crazy! But I'm not stupid, obviously I am an addict or I would've taken them the right way, not ran out, not buy any, & flip out all the time when low. I guess since I'm thinking clearer, reality is hitting a bit. Ugh. O'well. I will make it through. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well with your journey, it's inspiring. Oh & i have tons of gaba, xanax, & k-pins if needed. I just hate taking benzos, i will only do that at last resort. Thanks so much!!
 
What good did you order? The best I've read on the subject are: Chasing the Scream, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, High Price and Unbroken Brain.

With all those comfort meds you'll be absolutely fine when you come off. You're in a superb place for what you're trying to accomplish.
 
The Addicted Brain by Michael Kuhar, Hearts & Scars by Jake Parent & The Mindfulness Workbook for Addiction. I will have to check out the one you've mentioned. I LOVE to read a good book. I also like to read a good thriller so I'm going to check out Girl on the Train, just saw the movie & loved it so the book should be better.
 
Oh I just got a sample of Chasing the Scream, it looks awesome, the reviews are great.
 
Right on! In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts (freely available online as a PDF btw), Chasing the Scream and Unbroken Brain are by far the best books on substance use and addiction I've come across in the last few years - and as you might imagine I read more than a few books on such subjects.

Where did you hear about the Mindfulness Workbook on Addiction? Who wrote it?
 
Rebecca E Williams wrote Mindfulness Workbook. The reviews were really good & I love to journal, well at least used to until I started to obsess with pills, so I thought it would be a good tool to keep me occupied.

Today I took my dose & it made me so tired! Man, I can barely keep my eyes open.

Do any of you notice that you either have more dreams, OR start to dream again when you stop using? I used to dream all the time, but throughout my addiction I noticed that I hardly ever had a dream, if I did it would only be on occasion & was usually about pills! Now for the past few nights I've been having dreams. Its crazy. Could be just a fluke.

I think I'm taking my last dose to late in the day, maybe that's keeping me up late at night cause I can't fall asleep until after 2am. I do however get a little tired throughout the day. Any of you have any trouble with sleep on subs?

Thanks. I hope everyone is doing well & has a great day!
 
Yup, having issues with sleep is not at all uncommon. Particularly during the first few months and weeks you are on it, they often experience significant amounts of sloth and torpor.
 
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