Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v3; 2010 - 2022
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Captain.Heroin
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Buprenorphine's kappa antagonism should yield anti-depression, not cause depression.
Captain.Heroin
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Surprisingly I think antagonists like naltrexone can work and in theory and actuality, it is compatible with buprenorphine.
You just have to actually be done with full agonist opiates, or very very careful with ultra-low-dose naltrexone.
Either way I don't believe that antagonists are anything most people should use - but they do have their uses.
You just have to actually be done with full agonist opiates, or very very careful with ultra-low-dose naltrexone.
Either way I don't believe that antagonists are anything most people should use - but they do have their uses.
i are spectre
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lowering doses will reduce jerks. i had them on high doses of suboxone.
magnesium, potassium, calcium, and perhaps zinc will help with that, too. especially the magnesium. nuts have lots of magnesium.
the easiest way to reduce dose, i think, is to replace the suboxone with some benzos or opioids for 1-3 days.
then you can take 0.5 to 1.0mg of suboxone and you will feel SO much better. i did at least, and MANY others.
strips or tabs, all you need is 0.5 to 1mg, maybe one to three times a day.
if i took two strips per day, that's fourteen dollars a day, or over 400 dollars a month.
if i take one strip per week, that's a dollar a day, or 30 dollars a month, and i feel better than ^.
i know this is covered extensively but i want to point it out again to the people going broke taking 16mg a day. the side effects are terrible at that dose!
magnesium, potassium, calcium, and perhaps zinc will help with that, too. especially the magnesium. nuts have lots of magnesium.
the easiest way to reduce dose, i think, is to replace the suboxone with some benzos or opioids for 1-3 days.
then you can take 0.5 to 1.0mg of suboxone and you will feel SO much better. i did at least, and MANY others.
strips or tabs, all you need is 0.5 to 1mg, maybe one to three times a day.
if i took two strips per day, that's fourteen dollars a day, or over 400 dollars a month.
if i take one strip per week, that's a dollar a day, or 30 dollars a month, and i feel better than ^.
i know this is covered extensively but i want to point it out again to the people going broke taking 16mg a day. the side effects are terrible at that dose!
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StartedHydro
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Hello all! I hope everyone is doing well and in a great state of mind. =)
I have a question in regards to suboxone pill(s) and Bupe placement throughout each pill. The 8 mg has a "score"(swordish type design) on the backside. I am under the impression that the sword symbol that's placed in the center is not a true FDA score which would assure that both sides of said pill will have equal amounts of medicine?
If not a true score assuring 4mg on each side how would I know proper dosing as I titrate down?
Does anyone have any information regarding this? Anyone know how companies actually insert the medicine in their pills?
Any info would be great. Once again thanks to all who really do a great job maintaining a place with reliable information keeping people safe.
I have a question in regards to suboxone pill(s) and Bupe placement throughout each pill. The 8 mg has a "score"(swordish type design) on the backside. I am under the impression that the sword symbol that's placed in the center is not a true FDA score which would assure that both sides of said pill will have equal amounts of medicine?
If not a true score assuring 4mg on each side how would I know proper dosing as I titrate down?
Does anyone have any information regarding this? Anyone know how companies actually insert the medicine in their pills?
Any info would be great. Once again thanks to all who really do a great job maintaining a place with reliable information keeping people safe.
Pegasus
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^It's not exact-- you're right that it isn't a score. In practice it works out that it is somewhat consistent throughout the pill IME. If you break down 1/4 of the pill for example and then divide the powder into your daily dose, it will be pretty equivalent to the same amount of powder from another crushed quarter.
Just because you can create a mathematical model that "usually" reflects the way drugs act in the body doesn't make it true, models reflect reality, not the other way around.
It's counter-intuitive to suggest that if two people(hypothetical clones) both dose bupe, person A does 32mg and person B doses 1mg that person A will eliminate 16mg of buoe in the same amount of time that person B eliminates 0.5mg
And to me it does make sense to use naltrexone when coming off bupe because it allows you to go through WD's from mu receptors without dealing with the kappa "rebound" at the same timel. Essentially you retain the anti-depressant effects of the kappa antagonism while blocking your mu receptors. The NTX allows you to go through typical opiate detox without having to deal with the kappa rebound.
Also helps because once you are down to small enough doses of bupe in the morning by bedtime most the bupe has been excreted or metabolized into active compounds with lower binding affinities than the naltrexone, so its like detoxing every night(some nights I actually feel like I am WDing and take something to help me sleep, other nights don't notice it at all).
Captain.Heroin
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I am not sure what you mean to be honest.
I was mostly replying to cire113 who said it made no sense to take naltrexone at the end of your bupe taper. But you also.
I know Bupe's Kappa antagonism yields anti-depressant effects, and I believed the consensus was that when you quit taking Bupe there is a Kappa "rebound" effect which results in depression and dysphoria. And this rebound effect lasts longer than the detox, making PAWS worse, and making relapse more likely.
I was under the impression that naltrexone was a mu antagonist, so by taking NTX at the end of your bupe taper you are able to detox from mu agonism without disturbing the anti-depressant effects of Kappa antagonism; avoiding the Kappa "rebound" altogether. You are able to detox from the mu agonism while retaining the anti-depressant effects of kappa antagonism.
While lowering the risk of relapse since NTX blocks full agonist opiates. When quitting Bupe I take small doses of NTX at night for couple weeks(around 3mg), and then when I am ready to jump off I take a larger dose, 25-50mg(to get ldays of blocking while the cravings are at their worse), and try to stay away from bupe.(but take small doses when needed) and then continue LDN at night. The LDN itself causes a positive rebound effect the next day.
And for anyone who doesn't believe in/understand the rebound effect...use afrin for a week straight then stop. Then you'll see the rebound effect, your nose will swell shut for days. This is how people become "addicted" to afrin.
I know Bupe's Kappa antagonism yields anti-depressant effects, and I believed the consensus was that when you quit taking Bupe there is a Kappa "rebound" effect which results in depression and dysphoria. And this rebound effect lasts longer than the detox, making PAWS worse, and making relapse more likely.
I was under the impression that naltrexone was a mu antagonist, so by taking NTX at the end of your bupe taper you are able to detox from mu agonism without disturbing the anti-depressant effects of Kappa antagonism; avoiding the Kappa "rebound" altogether. You are able to detox from the mu agonism while retaining the anti-depressant effects of kappa antagonism.
While lowering the risk of relapse since NTX blocks full agonist opiates. When quitting Bupe I take small doses of NTX at night for couple weeks(around 3mg), and then when I am ready to jump off I take a larger dose, 25-50mg(to get ldays of blocking while the cravings are at their worse), and try to stay away from bupe.(but take small doses when needed) and then continue LDN at night. The LDN itself causes a positive rebound effect the next day.
And for anyone who doesn't believe in/understand the rebound effect...use afrin for a week straight then stop. Then you'll see the rebound effect, your nose will swell shut for days. This is how people become "addicted" to afrin.
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662
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i had a quick question about suboxone and kratom. I am not sure how long or how much kratom i should be taking. ibeen on opiates since summer 2001, so trying to wrap up the 10 year run, which i have no clue went to.
I was tapering suboxone which i been taking for few years. Last 10 months I only slipped and got 2 bags like 4 times driving by the hood. But last few days i been inhaling timy little lines, very minuture and taking 2-4 thai kratom tablets. I just dont have a structure at all. I guess tomorrow i will try not to take suboxone at all, that will be epic.
thing is I feel pretty damn good for not taking subs. what i inhale is more a mental thing. sleeping not issue cause i got xanax. just wanted to know how long i got to take this stuff for, and if 4 grams of leaf non extact can become problem if taken for a month or so? thanks ahead
I was tapering suboxone which i been taking for few years. Last 10 months I only slipped and got 2 bags like 4 times driving by the hood. But last few days i been inhaling timy little lines, very minuture and taking 2-4 thai kratom tablets. I just dont have a structure at all. I guess tomorrow i will try not to take suboxone at all, that will be epic.
thing is I feel pretty damn good for not taking subs. what i inhale is more a mental thing. sleeping not issue cause i got xanax. just wanted to know how long i got to take this stuff for, and if 4 grams of leaf non extact can become problem if taken for a month or so? thanks ahead
Pegasus
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^You should be good taking that amount of kratom for a month. You may have some withdrawal but it will be shorter and likely not as bad as bupe. This is if you get any withdrawal, many people don't get withdrawal from one month of kratom--. longer than that is pushing it though.
Personally, I'd try to aim for like three weeks to get the best of both worlds.
Personally, I'd try to aim for like three weeks to get the best of both worlds.
fakenamedotcom
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question.....
i have been on subutex for close to a year now, like 7-9 months.. i am down to about .5mg a day. (sublingual) however its spelt.
if i were to stop, how long would the WDs last, not the mental shit, the actual withdrawls and how bad would they be. i know i probably won;t be able to sleep because that's what would happen to me when i would withdrawl from oxycodone. (plus anxiety, sweats, shits, and all the bonus')
insight please.
i have been on subutex for close to a year now, like 7-9 months.. i am down to about .5mg a day. (sublingual) however its spelt.
if i were to stop, how long would the WDs last, not the mental shit, the actual withdrawls and how bad would they be. i know i probably won;t be able to sleep because that's what would happen to me when i would withdrawl from oxycodone. (plus anxiety, sweats, shits, and all the bonus')
insight please.
amapola
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.5mg a day of buprenorphine is still a solid dose. It's half life is quite variable (wikipedia gives it at 20-70, mean 37 hours) so it builds up in your system taken daily to say 1.5mg. If you compare this to withdrawing from a 50mg/d oxycodone habit which has a half life of 8h and lasts 3 days, you'd be looking at a week or so of less intense symptoms. Same pain just spread out over a longer periods so not so acute. That's just from the numbers though and not actually experience which I can leave to someone who has gone through it. Many people say your first time getting off bupe is almost painless with a proper taper. I'd try and get lower if I were you.
Starting Study on Naltrexone to Ease Bupe W/D Symptoms - Advice? Comments?
Hi to all -
I thank everyone in advance for reading this posting and for any help that you might be able to contribute; I am really just quite ignorant when it comes to the chemical backgrounds of most of the drugs that are discussed on these forums and, really, particularly ignorant about Naltrexone in general. I'll discuss the study below, but first some details about me:
I've been on Suboxone for 3+ years (my dose is currently 1mg a day and has been for about 3 months - a 2mg or lower daily dose was actually one requisite of this study) and am ready to be off of opiates entirely, so when I saw the opportunity to participate in a study that would "have me off of suboxone/opiates in a week" for FREE, I jumped at the opportunity, despite the fact that I was not sure exactly what this Naltrexone is and why it would be involved. I just figured that if I'm ever going to get off of this stuff then why not do it in a hospital setting where there are nurses/doctors there to provide you with "medications to help ease withdrawal symptoms" and also to look over you in general - plus, of course, I'm much more likely to go through with the full jump-off of suboxone while in the hospital for one straight week, as opposed to attempting to do it on my own. And it's free!
However, the more I've read about Naltrexone over the past week or so the more I've grown quite wary of its potential effects (really I've read mostly horror stories!), and the more that I've read about Bupe withdrawal and detox have made my doctor's assertions that the intense withdrawal symptoms should only last about 2-3 days of the study from the 1mg of suboxone (that I've been on for 3+ years) now seem to me to be downright incorrect!
The details of the study, in brief, are that I'm to take my last dose of suboxone (been on it for 3+ years) on Friday (1mg) and then check into the hospital for a week, during which they monitor my vitals, give me medicine to keep me "comfortable" through the w/d of the bupe (they offer, if I'm not mistaken, clonodine, ambien and some sort of benzo in addition to the usual tylenol, etc.) and then three days after the suboxone is stopped (so Monday, I suppose) I will be started on a very low dose of Naltrexone, by which time my doctor has told me "withdrawal symptoms will have begun to subside or at the very least have plateaued."
I'm under the impression that the purpose of the naltrexone in this study (in addition to the fact that it blocks one's receptors from taking other opiates) is to moderate the severity of the withdrawal symptoms. My doctor has told me that the 2-3 days of withdrawal should not be at all too bad and that the final 4 days of my hospital stay (when I'll be on the Naltrexone) should be pretty much a breeze.
On my final day at the hospital I'll be given a shot of Vivitrol, which, I guess, lasts a month, and I'll have weekly check-ups to the hospital once I am discharged to check up on the effects of the Vivitrol/Nalrexone.
I am tired of having this crutch of opiates in my life and want them out of it ASAP. Although suboxone has been a godsend in my transition from opiate-abuse, it is still something I am addicted to and something I no longer want in my life. That being said, when I was presented this opportunity I thought that it was the best thing that could happen: the possibility to be off of EVERYTHING in one week's time (I start this Friday)! However, and this is probably partly my fault, I've been filling my time leading up to the study scouring the internet for testimonials of people who have done similar tapers to jump off of suboxone (not really much out there) and finding information about naltrexone that is downright scary! Most people say to stay away from it like the plague! I realize that I will be receiving a small dose of it, but it is just hard for me to imagine it helping these symptoms when people have so many bad things to say about how it can negatively impact someone's road to sobriety...and this is scaring the @#%# out of me! Add that to the fact that I really think my doctor is underestimating the length and severity of the withdrawal that I will be going through from the 1mg of suboxone, and, honestly, I'm currently doubting even checking in on Friday now, three days before this study that I was previously so excited for.
One thing I have yet to do, though, is reach out on a forum like this, or, really, anywhere for that matter, and just writing this all out has been a little cathartic for me. But, obviously, what I would love to hear (and truly, truly appreciate) would be people's experiences with anything similar to this study, what people may have heard about similar experiences or really just any comments or suggestions you might have for me, be they positive or negative, encouraging or discouraging with regards to the study. Essentially, I don't like the idea of going into this study completely blind, so I am seeking any sort of additional information anyone can provide me which might make what I will be going through more predictable.
I thank you once again for taking the time to read this whole thing, and I can't say how much I would appreciate any responses/comments you might have for me, be they in this forum or privately. I don't mind them being public, obviously, so please be honest and give it to me straight! Thanks again for your help, in advance, and the best of luck to you all as well.
Regards,
B
P.S. I found an e-mail from my doctor, which stated the actual "purpose" of the study:
"The study is meant to investigate whether naltrexone's antagonism of kappa opioid receptors leads to an amelioration of withdrawal symptoms. Kappa antagonism is believed to help with withdrawal symptoms."
Hi to all -
I thank everyone in advance for reading this posting and for any help that you might be able to contribute; I am really just quite ignorant when it comes to the chemical backgrounds of most of the drugs that are discussed on these forums and, really, particularly ignorant about Naltrexone in general. I'll discuss the study below, but first some details about me:
I've been on Suboxone for 3+ years (my dose is currently 1mg a day and has been for about 3 months - a 2mg or lower daily dose was actually one requisite of this study) and am ready to be off of opiates entirely, so when I saw the opportunity to participate in a study that would "have me off of suboxone/opiates in a week" for FREE, I jumped at the opportunity, despite the fact that I was not sure exactly what this Naltrexone is and why it would be involved. I just figured that if I'm ever going to get off of this stuff then why not do it in a hospital setting where there are nurses/doctors there to provide you with "medications to help ease withdrawal symptoms" and also to look over you in general - plus, of course, I'm much more likely to go through with the full jump-off of suboxone while in the hospital for one straight week, as opposed to attempting to do it on my own. And it's free!
However, the more I've read about Naltrexone over the past week or so the more I've grown quite wary of its potential effects (really I've read mostly horror stories!), and the more that I've read about Bupe withdrawal and detox have made my doctor's assertions that the intense withdrawal symptoms should only last about 2-3 days of the study from the 1mg of suboxone (that I've been on for 3+ years) now seem to me to be downright incorrect!
The details of the study, in brief, are that I'm to take my last dose of suboxone (been on it for 3+ years) on Friday (1mg) and then check into the hospital for a week, during which they monitor my vitals, give me medicine to keep me "comfortable" through the w/d of the bupe (they offer, if I'm not mistaken, clonodine, ambien and some sort of benzo in addition to the usual tylenol, etc.) and then three days after the suboxone is stopped (so Monday, I suppose) I will be started on a very low dose of Naltrexone, by which time my doctor has told me "withdrawal symptoms will have begun to subside or at the very least have plateaued."
I'm under the impression that the purpose of the naltrexone in this study (in addition to the fact that it blocks one's receptors from taking other opiates) is to moderate the severity of the withdrawal symptoms. My doctor has told me that the 2-3 days of withdrawal should not be at all too bad and that the final 4 days of my hospital stay (when I'll be on the Naltrexone) should be pretty much a breeze.
On my final day at the hospital I'll be given a shot of Vivitrol, which, I guess, lasts a month, and I'll have weekly check-ups to the hospital once I am discharged to check up on the effects of the Vivitrol/Nalrexone.
I am tired of having this crutch of opiates in my life and want them out of it ASAP. Although suboxone has been a godsend in my transition from opiate-abuse, it is still something I am addicted to and something I no longer want in my life. That being said, when I was presented this opportunity I thought that it was the best thing that could happen: the possibility to be off of EVERYTHING in one week's time (I start this Friday)! However, and this is probably partly my fault, I've been filling my time leading up to the study scouring the internet for testimonials of people who have done similar tapers to jump off of suboxone (not really much out there) and finding information about naltrexone that is downright scary! Most people say to stay away from it like the plague! I realize that I will be receiving a small dose of it, but it is just hard for me to imagine it helping these symptoms when people have so many bad things to say about how it can negatively impact someone's road to sobriety...and this is scaring the @#%# out of me! Add that to the fact that I really think my doctor is underestimating the length and severity of the withdrawal that I will be going through from the 1mg of suboxone, and, honestly, I'm currently doubting even checking in on Friday now, three days before this study that I was previously so excited for.
One thing I have yet to do, though, is reach out on a forum like this, or, really, anywhere for that matter, and just writing this all out has been a little cathartic for me. But, obviously, what I would love to hear (and truly, truly appreciate) would be people's experiences with anything similar to this study, what people may have heard about similar experiences or really just any comments or suggestions you might have for me, be they positive or negative, encouraging or discouraging with regards to the study. Essentially, I don't like the idea of going into this study completely blind, so I am seeking any sort of additional information anyone can provide me which might make what I will be going through more predictable.
I thank you once again for taking the time to read this whole thing, and I can't say how much I would appreciate any responses/comments you might have for me, be they in this forum or privately. I don't mind them being public, obviously, so please be honest and give it to me straight! Thanks again for your help, in advance, and the best of luck to you all as well.
Regards,
B
P.S. I found an e-mail from my doctor, which stated the actual "purpose" of the study:
"The study is meant to investigate whether naltrexone's antagonism of kappa opioid receptors leads to an amelioration of withdrawal symptoms. Kappa antagonism is believed to help with withdrawal symptoms."
Pegasus
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^You're right, there are a lot of horror stories. There are not too many positive stories that I have read either. You're already down to 1mg, why not just drop that dose to under 0.5mg over the next few weeks and get off that way? This method would worry me much less. If bupe withdrawal is too much for you (it almost certainly won't be unbearable, it may be unpleasant and drawn out however) at the dose that you quit from, something like kratom can help tie you over for the 10 days or so if you need it to. It works damn well for this purpose.. I'd recommend this approach-- with or without kratom-- over naltrexone by a mile.
Janja
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I am confused why a LDN regime would help with rebound anxiety/depression from the lack of kappa antagonism from the buprenorphine if it is solely a mu receptor antagonist. If you're trying to remove buprenorphine, I can understand how it may modulate the mu receptors to make you go through withdrawal quicker, but do not understand how it would have a "leveling" effect on bupe's kappa antagonism, thus in theory helping to reduce excess anxiety/depression during withdrawal.
This topic is interesting and pertinent to me as well. I am about to enter an fairly lengthy inpatient program soon and am thinking whether or not this is the time to "kick" buprenorphine as well, and/or whether it is worth it to just remain on bupe to help with any opiate cravings I have when I get out. I have been taking buprenorphine rectally at 1.0-1.5mg / day for over 3 years now. Not a huge dose yes, but I am sure to experience withdrawal as it's come when I tried a test taper before.
Also, how does the layman obtain naltrexone? Is it possible to get a prescription for it?
This topic is interesting and pertinent to me as well. I am about to enter an fairly lengthy inpatient program soon and am thinking whether or not this is the time to "kick" buprenorphine as well, and/or whether it is worth it to just remain on bupe to help with any opiate cravings I have when I get out. I have been taking buprenorphine rectally at 1.0-1.5mg / day for over 3 years now. Not a huge dose yes, but I am sure to experience withdrawal as it's come when I tried a test taper before.
Also, how does the layman obtain naltrexone? Is it possible to get a prescription for it?
Wolfmans_BrothEr
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IMO if you have the opportunity to be in inpatient where your cut off from all your dealers and shit, you should kick while in rehab. Since it's longterm like you said the worst of the urges you'll experience in there, and I'd rather experience urges in a place where I have no chance of getting high since I'll be less likely to use.
Plus you'll be in a place where your surrounded by sobriety and support, sounds like the best option to me. What do you consider longterm inpatient?
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Can anybody tell me if I take 30mg of lope and then take bupe a few hours later will I go into w.d?
Captain.Heroin
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You can be prescribed naltrexone.
Knowing two people who experienced positive results from it, it can work. However, you truly have to want to be off of opiates. You have to be off of full agonists for a very long time before taking it.
Knowing two people who experienced positive results from it, it can work. However, you truly have to want to be off of opiates. You have to be off of full agonists for a very long time before taking it.
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