Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[Captain.Heroin]

So no one ever answered my question on bupe equivalency. At low doses of 1-2mg how much oxy, hydromorph, heroin, etc is it equal to? After a week binge how long would I have to wait to use bupe recreationally?

I answered your question, it is just limited to my own experience, since I can't tell you what it's going to be like for you.

I'll go find what I said and re-post it.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I think it varies, a lot, from person to person.

I can tell you my experience, though it may not be accurate for you or any other person.

I was IVing buprenorphine at some dosage higher than I am now when I last used a full agonist. I used 1mg of dilaudid IV and got great effects.

I would probably equate 0.1mg to 0.2mg of buprenorphine to 1mg of hydromorphone.

When I tried oxycodone IV, I only used 15mg and got good effects but less enjoyable than the dilaudid.

So, knowing these numbers, buprenorphine, to me, is about 5 to 10 x stronger than hydromorphone, and about 100 to 150 x stronger than oxycodone. Keep in mind that the ROA for all substances in this example would be IV.

If you are using the Suboxone sublingually, then buprenorphine and hydromorphone are probably equi-potent, and buprenorphine would be roughly 15x stronger than oxycodone. (This is comparing sublingual buprenorphine to IV'd oxycodone/hydromorphone).

Reposted. Top of the 29th page.

i know in the UK (live in USA tho), they prescribe buprenorphine for pain management in smaller amounts.

They do this in the US too.

 

[Bupe]

ok well that aside what is equivalent in the best possible scenario with several potentiators.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

ok well that aside what is equivalent in the best possible scenario with several potentiators.

I think that opiate potentiation is really limited IMO, and I wouldn't bother potentiating full agonists. You can potentiate buprenorphine a lot since it's not all that "opiate like" by itself (when comparing it to a very sedating opiate like heroin).

What I quoted above is probably the most accurate that I can think of, for myself, and probably other people with small tolerances.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

wtf

qué?

OIC.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

CH, what's your take on the norbuprenorphine metabolite acting stronger in lower doses?

EDIT: or being allowed to act because of less competition at the mu-opioid receptor sites due to less actual buprenorphine being activated...

I think norbuprenorphine is basically the reason why lower doses work better for me, and others on BMT. I think that there's a point where mu-opioid up-regulation can cause permanent effects, i.e. down-regulation becomes limited upon cessation. This would explain why some people aren't able to get such good effects at lower doses, because they're unable to down-regulate back to being not-opiate-tolerant. These people would do better on a higher dose of buprenorphine.

You can read more about up-regulation and down-regulation here: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=328470&p=8259286

 

[Bupe]

wtf, like .5mg bupe plus 50mg diphenhydramine + 4oz white grapefruit juice = 15mg oxycodone ????

yeah something like that

 

[pixplzthx]

Bupe Doesn't Always Fill up All of Your mu Receptors

I think norbuprenorphine is basically the reason why lower doses work better for me, and others on BMT. I think that there's a point where mu-opioid up-regulation can cause permanent effects, i.e. down-regulation becomes limited upon cessation. This would explain why some people aren't able to get such good effects at lower doses, because they're unable to down-regulate back to being not-opiate-tolerant. These people would do better on a higher dose of buprenorphine.

You can read more about up-regulation and down-regulation here: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=328470&p=8259286

I thought I posted a link in this thread to a pdf that that talked about the percentage of receptors that were used during low and high use bupernorphine.

Basically, IIRC, at 2 mg (might be as high as 8 mg) SL less than 50% of your mu receptors are occupied by bupe. However, at 16 mg SL over 95% of your mu receptors are filled up with bupe.

That's why if you do a wonderfully small amount of bupe, it is possible to get full (or pretty close to full) effects from your regular opiate of choice just a few hours later (around 12 hours).

Keep in mind the half life of bupe, though. If you do 2 mg everyday for a week, you're gonna to need a longer time off/away before you can feel your opiate of choice.

 

[supermarket]

Hey guys - Ive posted in here a few times (one of the mega threads, anyway). I've been addicted to opiates for 6 years, and the worse of the addiction being around 2 1/2 to 3 years.

I've scheduled an appointment with my old bupe doc, and I'm planning on going back on bupe. I have a kid now, and need to regulate my addiction. Quitting is not an option right now, because frankly I've quit for 2 months, and 6 months, respectively, and during both stints was not able to function properly, such as household tasks, college, concentration, job, etc etc.

My questions are these:

1) On BMT, since it is a partial agonist (if Im correct) does this mean that over time, your body will start to produce endorphins that it wasn't producing while on a full blown oxy habit?
In other words, will my brain start to repair itself while undergoing bupe treatment?

2) On subs, my insomnia is out of control. sometimes I have to stay up 2 days in a row, and no matter what, my sleep schedule WILL NOT regulate.
A) Will this go away after time? Like say, after 4-6 months my body should become used to the BMT, and the insomnia will lesson or go away?
B) Is there any medications or techniques or something you guys recommend? Does anyone else have this problem? Benadryl, Melatonin, etc don't do shit while I'm on bupe, and ambien makes me crazy, lol.

Also, I've noticed that opiate addiction has affected my concentration in a negative way, and I'm wondering, has anyone noticed their 'spiritual' life coming back to them after stabilizing on bupe? How does bupe affect your concentration?

Thanks guys


[edit: I've read a post from Cpt. Heroin stating that it does, and that is what I've thought. Is this the general consensus? I sure hope so ]

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

anyone else experience this, or not experience it for long-term BMT?

this is the proper venue for this question, right? i suppose it's harm reduction in the sense that if this is a "side-effect" of BMT, people could weigh this negative in when making decisions about opiate dependency therapy, etc.

Happens to me also.. i sweat my ass off but i can have the chills at the same time, but im also scripted .4mg clonidine, and as long as i don't forget to take it, it doesn't happen, but sometimes i will 4get to take something and i will get goosebumps and the chills.. but my whole family has noticed it, all summer long until the heat at like noon i would wear a sweatshirt all morning and everyone else was in short sleeves and shorts and i was freezing.. 3+ yrs on bupe and it's been goin on the whole time.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

My questions are these:

1) On BMT, since it is a partial agonist (if Im correct) does this mean that over time, your body will start to produce endorphins that it wasn't producing while on a full blown oxy habit?
In other words, will my brain start to repair itself while undergoing bupe treatment?

Essentially. It's not necessarily that you're not producing endorphins, it's just that if anything, you're producing fewer than normal, as your body is used to having the full agonist do the work. Even if you are still producing endorphins, they aren't going to be felt correctly due to the fact that your mu-opioid receptors have been massively up-regulated. Down-regulation, and endorphins coming around again, are both possible on BMT, yes.

2) On subs, my insomnia is out of control. sometimes I have to stay up 2 days in a row, and no matter what, my sleep schedule WILL NOT regulate.
A) Will this go away after time? Like say, after 4-6 months my body should become used to the BMT, and the insomnia will lesson or go away?
B) Is there any medications or techniques or something you guys recommend? Does anyone else have this problem? Benadryl, Melatonin, etc don't do shit while I'm on bupe, and ambien makes me crazy, lol.

It depends, has your sleep schedule been this bad before opiate addiction?

You can try to be prescribed to a hypnotic for sleep, but focusing on sleep hygiene, exercising daily, and eating enough can help with sleep. Try to do as much as possible in a day.

Doxylamine is a superior OTC antihistamine, compared to diphenhydramine, in my experience.

Also, I've noticed that opiate addiction has affected my concentration in a negative way, and I'm wondering, has anyone noticed their 'spiritual' life coming back to them after stabilizing on bupe? How does bupe affect your concentration?

Thanks guys

I have ADHD, so my concentration has never been all that great. Again, what was it like before opiate addiction?

Buprenorphine tends to have stimulant-like effects for me, so I am of the opinion that buprenorphine does help your attention. However it's not a fix-all for this sort of thing. It does seem to help me a lot though.

I believe this is in part due to buprenorphine's action at delta, kappa, and sigma opioid receptors.

 

[pixplzthx]

Accolades and a Question

It's not necessarily that you're not producing endorphins, it's just that if anything, you're producing fewer than normal, as your body is used to having the full agonist do the work. Even if you are still producing endorphins, they aren't going to be felt correctly due to the fact that your mu-opioid receptors have been massively up-regulated. Down-regulation, and endorphins coming around again, are both possible on BMT, yes.

It's because you explain things in terms like this/these that make you the king of this thread. I've read all sorts of articles and white papers on up-reg and down-reg of mu-opioid receptors, but no other cause and effect relationship comes as close as your wonderfully easy to understand definition of the process.

Speaking of getting those receptors back to a normal number, how long does it take? Is there an average or is it different for every (ab)user? I'm specifically asking on behalf of those who haven't totally messed-up this particular brain function. I realize that for some, BMT will be with them, potentially, for life.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

It's because you explain things in terms like this/these that make you the king of this thread. I've read all sorts of articles and white papers on up-reg and down-reg of mu-opioid receptors, but no other cause and effect relationship comes as close as your wonderfully easy to understand definition of the process.

Speaking of getting those receptors back to a normal number, how long does it take? Is there an average or is it different for every (ab)user? I'm specifically asking on behalf of those who haven't totally messed-up this particular brain function. I realize that for some, BMT will be with them, potentially, for life.

Thank you!

I'm guessing how long it would take is dependent on the individual, but for me, I know it took a while. Probably at least 6 months to 1 year, maybe 1.5 years. I am pretty sure I am back to normal now because I barely experience WD symptoms.

For some users it might be 3 to 6 weeks, for hardcore users, it might be over the course of their life, years to decades. Even if it takes a year or two, that isn't too long for someone who is still relatively young in life. So to those of us out there who did use pretty regularly/hard, you will recover. The more time you spend sober, the quicker your recovery is.

I would say for people who had a light/moderate habit, weeks to months is the longest you are looking at. For harder/high tolerance users, months to years (probably not exceeding 3 to 5 years) is what you're most likely looking at.

This is also assuming you are an otherwise healthy adult. If you had a certain issue before abusing opiates, and that issue became worse afterward, it may take more than sobriety to recover fully (like medicine but not necessarily just ORT, therapy, etc).

 

[pixplzthx]

Cool.

I actually feel lucky because after using opiates for almost ten years to control chronic pain, I decided that they weren't actually working the way I needed/wanted them to. So, I told my doctor that I was done with them and after one (really quick) month on a methadone taper I have stayed (mostly) opiate free. (I ended up at ER for a three day Percocet script yesterday)

It's been almost three weeks since I last had opiates daily and I have had one random panic attack, a day of the runs, but no other PAWS symptoms. My mood is way better off of opiates, too!

There was a time at the beginning of the year that my primary recommended the use of bupe to try and reassess my pain levels, but after two months I was back on OxyContin. I don't know how they get pain relief overseas with this stuff. Of course, it didn't help that I was coming from 120 mg/day of OxyContin.

I used to get these horrible hot flashes (in specific body parts: such as just on my upper left thigh or just on my right hand) on anything approaching 12 mg (maybe less). But after I dropped my dose to 4 mg/day, all of those side effects went away.

Heck, I still have some bupe in a drawer upstairs!

 

[revned04]

so I'm prescribed the 8 mg, and I was just wondering how people make the tiny doses out of it that have better effect. I used to shoot it but without a micron filter so I'm trying to stop that. Would it be sanitary for me to make a solution in water to save and plug, such as .2mg/ 10 ml or something and just keep it on my shelf? And whatever people say I haven't been able to get the same good effect from bupe from pluging or snorting, that I get from IV. Snorting isn't my favorite, but I was thinking I could crush up a pill into one of those coke bullets, and just snorting a bump every morning or something. Just want to know what other people are doing for the awesome small doses.

 

[Drifter74]

QUESTION - I have been insufflating 1.5-2MG Suboxone (lines, one 8MG Sub broken into eight equal amounts) per day for several months. Over the last two days I've only been taking a little piece of a line in the morning and @ night.

Right now I'm in pain from a chronic condition that I aggravated about a week ago... Motrin and Flexeril isn't even touching it.

Anyways, I've had thirty 10MG 'dones sitting around for MANY months and am in pain and want to use them up.

What would be a good dose to start at?

Will answer my own question for the benefit of others:

I took my my last dose of Suboxone & 6:00AM yesterday, which was quite a bit less than 1MG insufflated.

Took a few MG's (2-3) of Xanax throughout the night last night trying to get some sleep. Didn't work. Ended up being up pretty much all night, irritable and in pain. I finally fell asleep around 4ish.

Woke up @ 6:00AM and ate 20 MG's of Methadone and laid back down and slept till 9:00AM, A miracle in itself - I can never usually sleep past 6-6:30 or so. I usually wake up every morning with bad anxiety and generally feeling crappy, which is what happened @ 6 this morning.

Woke up @ 9:00AM feeling absolutely WONDERFUL. The best I've felt in ages, with barely any pain in my arm. Just sleeping 'till 9:00AM was great in itself... I wasn't HIGH, I just felt great. (the way I'd love to feel everyday.. but we all know that's not going to happen until I'm COMPLETELY clean)

Took 20 more MG's of 'Done at 9AM and am just starting to feel it pretty good now. (11:30-ish) I'll probably take another 10-20 Mg's in a while and see where that puts me.

Anyways, it certainly worked for the pain...and now I'm hoping I can catch a little buzz since my day is clear and don't have any obligations.

I honestly feel so good I want to do some physical work around here but I don't want to hurt my arm anymore than it already is, so just gonna hang around the house and download movies and such.

Which brings up another thing I think is funny/scary that I noticed last night. Over the last year a few new release groups have shown up in the warez scene named Suboxone, Ritalin & Xanax. Not a good thing, since most of these "groups" are younger kids. Sigh. The "scene" certainly has changed since I was deeply involved as a kid. But that's another topic.

Really not sure what I'm going to do at this point though -- I have an appt. with a Dr. for my specific condition (got the referral from my Sub Doc yesterday) so we'll see what he has to say.. I'm likely going to require surgery, so I'm sure that's going to suck. I've never been under the knife, ever. When I asked my Sub Doc about this yesterday he said to not worry about it until I'm evaluated and the surgery is scheduled.... so we'll see what he decides to do.

Ugh - I know it's not going to be fun making the switch back to Subs in a couple days when my 'Dones run out but at least I'll be pain free for a bit... I wish I never severed my ties with most of my dealers who all think I'm clean now. (No, I don't consider myself clean. I take Suboxone - I'm just delaying the inevitable) .. Oh well. At least I've been able to save up more than 500 Subs. By the end of the year I should have more than 1000.

BAH.. I wish I never touched Opiates at all. To think two years ago I was making over $100,000 a year at a great job.. Now I'm unemployed with an Indian doing my job for less than 40k. (no, not prejudiced at all, towards anybody) I really liked the guy I trained to do my job... and I knew the whole time that's exactly what I was doing. They are a GREAT bunch of people with a rich & beautiful culture. Just a fact of my life.

How is this related? Well, I can't afford to live the lifestyle I like to live AND spend my play $ on my DOC anymore!

 

[nchz]

lololzzz warez scene on AOL... thoz were the days ... back in like the late 90's early 2000's


fuck steve case


pwn AOL

 

[Drifter74]

lololzzz warez scene on AOL... thoz were the days ... back in like the late 90's early 2000's


fuck steve case


pwn AOL

Mid to late 80's..

Now I'm showing my age.

Before AOL was AOL they were QuantumLink. The first online service for the C-64.

Now we're getting off topic and a little to close to TMI re: my real identity.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

26 micrograms of buprenorphine and I am feeling quite lovely.

How's everyone doing tonight? :D

 

[jamesBrown]

feelin lovely like you....but off of 0.5 mg's