Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[caseface99]

If you don't want to read all that and try to figure out what im asking, i guess the answer to my question lies with this one. Does precipitated withdrawal occur no matter what if i have opiates binded to my receptors? because other than the last few days i have been using suboxone not heroin.


I had this whole big thing typed out until i realized my question doesn't involve my ENTIRE current situation, i have a habit of explaining that in length; also i was just wasting time and feeling worse by the minute. So I'll try to make this short.

-Ive been taking 12mg of suboxone for the last 9 months.
-I screwed up and ended up with 3 to last 2 weeks. Typical. -.-
-So i made up for it by using heroin for the last 5-6 days. First I shot 4 for old times sake, the next day 3, then i did 2 for a couple days, then 1 about 8-10 hours ago.
-I cant sleep and im starting to feel sick. I feel confident enough at this point that i can make my last 3 pills last until the 5th, but will i go into precipitated withdrawal if i take a little bit now? Ive got class tomorrow and i don't want to cut again. Its to early in the semester for this shit lol.

So am i sick from heroin or sick because its been almost a week since ive taken any sub and considering the amount of heroin ive used doesn't compare to the 12 mgs of subs i was taking everyday i feel like ive tapered down quite a bit since all the days i did heroin except for when i shot 4 bags i felt like shit before the next day.

Basically i want to sleep, but its hard right now since im starting to get a bit sick. If i take suboxone will it just make it harder for me to sleep? cause i don't want to go into precipitated withdrawal and have no chance of sleep at all.


By the way, yes im searching google and yes im searching bluelight but most of what ive found about precipitated withdrawal is in the case of taking it to soon after the individual stops using heroin, in none of the cases I've found has it been about using heroin only for a few days after using just suboxone for the last 9 months.

Also, yes, i realize this didn't end up being short anyway. Im just going to stop now, probably realize typing all this at 3AM was a waste of time and end up taking some suboxone anyway. fml.
so i suppose ill report back on what happens for future reference i guess.



Oh, and While im on here wasting time anyway, if i shoot my subs can i make them last longer than if i take them under the tongue? ive got 3 8mg pills to last a week when im used to 12mg/day. Im done rambling now. I just wanna feel normal.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

If you don't want to read all that and try to figure out what im asking, i guess the answer to my question lies with this one. Does precipitated withdrawal occur no matter what if i have opiates binded to my receptors? because other than the last few days i have been using suboxone not heroin.


I had this whole big thing typed out until i realized my question doesn't involve my ENTIRE current situation, i have a habit of explaining that in length; also i was just wasting time and feeling worse by the minute. So I'll try to make this short.

-Ive been taking 12mg of suboxone for the last 9 months.
-I screwed up and ended up with 3 to last 2 weeks. Typical. -.-
-So i made up for it by using heroin for the last 5-6 days. First I shot 4 for old times sake, the next day 3, then i did 2 for a couple days, then 1 about 8-10 hours ago.
-I cant sleep and im starting to feel sick. I feel confident enough at this point that i can make my last 3 pills last until the 5th, but will i go into precipitated withdrawal if i take a little bit now? Ive got class tomorrow and i don't want to cut again. Its to early in the semester for this shit lol.

So am i sick from heroin or sick because its been almost a week since ive taken any sub and considering the amount of heroin ive used doesn't compare to the 12 mgs of subs i was taking everyday i feel like ive tapered down quite a bit since all the days i did heroin except for when i shot 4 bags i felt like shit before the next day.

Basically i want to sleep, but its hard right now since im starting to get a bit sick. If i take suboxone will it just make it harder for me to sleep? cause i don't want to go into precipitated withdrawal and have no chance of sleep at all.


By the way, yes im searching google and yes im searching bluelight but most of what ive found about precipitated withdrawal is in the case of taking it to soon after the individual stops using heroin, in none of the cases I've found has it been about using heroin only for a few days after using just suboxone for the last 9 months.

Also, yes, i realize this didn't end up being short anyway. Im just going to stop now, probably realize typing all this at 3AM was a waste of time and end up taking some suboxone anyway. fml.
so i suppose ill report back on what happens for future reference i guess.



Oh, and While im on here wasting time anyway, if i shoot my subs can i make them last longer than if i take them under the tongue? ive got 3 8mg pills to last a week when im used to 12mg/day. Im done rambling now. I just wanna feel normal.

Do you have any other sedative like drugs for sleep? Antihistamines, benzos, blood pressure drugs, etc?

Either way, you could try taking Suboxone. You just have to ask yourself, how bad do you feel, and how bad is acute opiate WD? The trick is to wait until you're in the worst part of WD.

If I took Suboxone again I would take a much lower dose, like 1mg.

 

[DexterMeth]

Of course you'll get it. You're not looking at only precips but full on withdrawals, although since it's a partial agonist, not as severe; but with the long term half-life if will obviously be more drawn out. I'm talking about if you run out mind you (about full withdrawals).

But to fully answer your question, yes you are likely to go into a mild withdrawal, but it won't be terrible since you have enough for 3mg to last you each day for a week. If I was you I'd just tough out 2-3 days of withdrawals and you won't only have a lot more to work with but you will be able to get out of those withdrawals off far less.

I don't know, but that is what I would do. I'm one to suffer through more in a short time and feel good for the longer haul than feel quasi-"ok"/so-so shitty the whole time.

 

[caseface99]

Eh. Well i just took some, snorted just over 2mg(In my experience that works faster and just as long so whatever). I don't feel any worse but i also don't feel much better. I feel like its best to just try to sleep (unlikely.. drugs or not..) and take some more in the morning.

Also captain, it doesn't matter what i have for sleep. My desk is covered in pill bottles for zillions of different things my psychiatrist has given me, nothing makes me sleep other than the stronger benzos such as alprazolam but he wont prescribe me them even though he knows i physically can't get high off of benzos.


Either way, i definitely don't feel any worse. If anything i feel a bit better. Which doesn't surprise me because if i recall correctly ive taken soboxone before after using heroin and not gotten precipitated withdrawal, i honestly think that only happens if your bodies main addiction is heroin. But all i know is how my own body has reacted.



editt: and now its really bothering me, so im going to do more just for the sake of finding out if it will make me withdraw. Call me stupid but that question is going to bother me more than withdrawal would right now, because i know even in full withdrawals right now i probably wouldn't really be "kicking" the habit. I doubt if it would be worse than the flu. Although im basing this off of experience, and during those experiences i hadn't been on 12mg for 9 months yet. I might regret it in the morning but its already 4 i don't think im going to sleep anyway tonight... again...

.

 

[DexterMeth]

Dude your doctor doesn't really care what your tolerance to benzos is, and I doubt he's a "benzo nazi" (this term is total bs, most doctors that don't carelessly prescribe them have their reasons and are doing the right thing), it's that you obviously have an absurd benzo tolerance, and taking more isn't going to help you. I just detoxed off of 4 years of 16mg clonazepam daily and was abusing the hell out of benzos years before and during this period. I'm actually going through mild withdrawals and definate precipitated withdrawals right now from it, and it's one of the best things I've ever done. My sleep is slowly turning back to how it was before benzo use. It's kind of weird getting used to super vivid dreams again though.

Anyways about precips, yeah you're not going to go into full agonist withdrawals if the main opiate you were using was buprenorphine (in this situation). That's pretty obvious I'd think, seems like you get this and are just looking for some conference.

If you doubt you'll feel any worse and also not much better, then why are you wasting the suboxone? Stop taking it, go into withdrawals for 4-5 days, and then you're have 3 days are 8mg or 2 at your regular.

 

[caseface99]

Dude your doctor doesn't really care what your tolerance to benzos is, and I doubt he's a "benzo nazi" (this term is total bs, most doctors that don't carelessly prescribe them have their reasons and are doing the right thing), it's that you obviously have an absurd benzo tolerance, and taking more isn't going to help you. I just detoxed off of 4 years of 16mg clonazepam daily and was abusing the hell out of benzos years before and during this period. I'm actually going through mild withdrawals and definate precipitated withdrawals right now from it, and it's one of the best things I've ever done. My sleep is slowly turning back to how it was before benzo use. It's kind of weird getting used to super vivid dreams again though.

Anyways about precips, yeah you're not going to go into full agonist withdrawals if the main opiate you were using was buprenorphine (in this situation). That's pretty obvious I'd think, seems like you get this and are just looking for some conference.

If you doubt you'll feel any worse and also not much better, then why are you wasting the suboxone? Stop taking it, go into withdrawals for 4-5 days, and then you're have 3 days are 8mg or 2 at your regular.

First part of your post you mis understood, i *literally* cant get high off of benzos. I don't have a benzo tolerance, i can still count the number of milligrams of xanax i have ever taken. If i take .5 it makes me feel normal. If i take 1mg-1.5mg it allows me to sleep. After that it does nothing more for me. Literally i have taken 6mg of xanax and i didn't feel anything, it didn't even force me to sleep it just made me feel normal. I guess its kinda like ADD and adderall, i have anxiety so xanax works differently for me? I don't know. But ive had the depression anxiety and insomnia my whole life, its not drug induced, its drug inducing. So yeah, i don't have a super massive benzo tollerance they just don't effect me like they effect other people. Atleast xanax klonopin and flurazopam don't anyway. Do you understand what im trying to say? Im severely sleep deprived and i ramble a lot when that happens.



As for the second part of your post, your exactly right. I assumed that i would NOT go into precips because i have been using bupe for 9 months, and only used heroin for the past 5 days. So yeah i was just looking for conference in that and since nobody else understood my situation or confirmed that with me i went ahead to try it for myself. I have done some more suboxone and waited a bit more to see how my body would react and i feel a whole lot better. I suppose i was right. no precips for me

Still no sleep though.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Also captain, it doesn't matter what i have for sleep. My desk is covered in pill bottles for zillions of different things my psychiatrist has given me, nothing makes me sleep other than the stronger benzos such as alprazolam but he wont prescribe me them even though he knows i physically can't get high off of benzos.

What benzos have you tried?

I find temazepam, midazolam, flurazepam, and triazolam work the best.

 

[caseface99]

Im pretty certain the only one he was willing to try was flurazepam but im not sure, ill talk to my psych on the 5th about it. Either way, i don't really care what benzos work in the long run. Im not looking for a psych to prescribe me xanax for the rest of my life i would rather find a non addictive drug that will alter my brain chemistry to normalize my sleep schedule once i take it for long enough, and that most certainly will not happen with benzos. It would just be nice if i could be prescribed them UNTIL i find a non addictive one that works. Why would i want to become physically dependent to something with withdrawal that nasty when i cant even get high off of it? I know that sounds like something a druggie would say ha but its true i would rather find a drug that comes with little to no dependence and just use a benzo until then.


Either way, im happy i was right for once when people were telling me i was wrong. You can absolutely use heroin for a short period of time in the middle of a suboxone regime and continue taking suboxone whenever you want and not get precipitated withdrawal. I just proved that. The only question is how long does it take for bupe dependence to become heroin dependence and visa versa. I used heroin for about 5-6 days then when back to bupe with the heroin still in my system. I just hope i can make my now 2 and a half pills last until the 5th. I know pills aren't the best candidate for intravenous injection, but setting aside the risk factors could i make them last longer by shooting smaller amounts?

and as far as the risk factors go, im probably not going to do much damage to my body if i only shoot them once a day for a week, assuming i triple maybe even quadruple filter them?

 

[DexterMeth]

*Dammit, I wrote a really detailed long imformative response and it got deleted, so I'll make this short*

My bad. Being that you don't have a benzo tolerance, take it from me and many others, don't start one. You DO NOT want to start benzo use for anxiety. That is a terrible idea. First off it will stop working after a while. It's terribly addictive both mentally and physically, you will eventually be taken off it anyways, and by this time your anxiety will be much worse, and you said you have a depressive anxiety. Depressants don't help someone that's depressed. They will end up making you far more depressed. Now there's certainly nothing wrong with being RX'd benzos and using them for a very bad anxiety/panic attack, bad day, etc; but there are not many people that end up using them this way compaired to those that get addicted, it's certainly worth a shot though, but if you start to use them everyday for more than a few weeks, you know you should stop immediately and that they aren't for you. (They aren't for anyone really, not like that anyhow. You just don't on a daily basis. Once every 3-4 days max would PROBABLY be fine as a routine. They also slow down your thinking, literally in a physical nature, by blocking/stopping the firing of "too" many neurons in the brain. God I wrote so much about this, you probably won't get the whole idea now....



Ever try a sleep clinic? How about trying daily melatonin to put your circadiun rhythm back to normal? RX'd Rozarem might be a great thing too. You also might be over-stressed all the time which is keeping you up.. In this case I'd see an anxiety specialist and psychologist for proper med(s) and therapy for learning coping skills. Your regular doctor isn't going to cut it for this issue imo. I'd be completely open and honest with your doctor/psychiatrist about how you feel and what is and isn't working. They don't respond well to lying, be it that you're too anxious, shy, or you're a strait up schemer. Don't look at them as another person, but more as the lid to the box you have to open to get the things out you need to feel normal again...but don't forget they're a person, they have feeling.
-good luck

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Im pretty certain the only one he was willing to try was flurazepam but im not sure, ill talk to my psych on the 5th about it. Either way, i don't really care what benzos work in the long run. Im not looking for a psych to prescribe me xanax for the rest of my life i would rather find a non addictive drug that will alter my brain chemistry to normalize my sleep schedule once i take it for long enough, and that most certainly will not happen with benzos. It would just be nice if i could be prescribed them UNTIL i find a non addictive one that works. Why would i want to become physically dependent to something with withdrawal that nasty when i cant even get high off of it? I know that sounds like something a druggie would say ha but its true i would rather find a drug that comes with little to no dependence and just use a benzo until then.

That's very true, which is why I use them when absolutely necessary, and do my best to get regular sleep on the days I don't use benzos. There's other medications, like antihistamines that work well. I find hydroxyzine hcl actually is effective at putting me to sleep, but I will be groggy the next morning.

Flurazepam is a very long lasting benzo. Most benzos are also not long term solutions, they're better used for the short term, or at least intermediate (not daily or anything close to it) use. This can be difficult when it seems you need them more often than not.

Working on my sleep hygeine has been very good. By the way: if you don't like/want to use antihistamines (or they don't work on you), then have you tried melatonin?

Either way, im happy i was right for once when people were telling me i was wrong. You can absolutely use heroin for a short period of time in the middle of a suboxone regime and continue taking suboxone whenever you want and not get precipitated withdrawal. I just proved that. The only question is how long does it take for bupe dependence to become heroin dependence and visa versa. I used heroin for about 5-6 days then when back to bupe with the heroin still in my system.

Why not enjoy the heroin until it's gone? *shrugs*

 

[DexterMeth]

^No benzos are good for a long term solution, as they are in no way a solution. They are splint for a broken leg. They can work great for the short run but in no way should they even be prescribed for the long run. It's irresponsible to prescribe them for long periods of time, unless the person is completely aware that they will have to detox and that it is going to be terrible. This isn't just from personal experience, it's how they work/don't.

 

[caseface99]

Why not enjoy the heroin until it's gone? *shrugs*

Because i didn't take enough to get high. Believe or or not it only took 9 months to get my will power back im not joking when i say i only got fucked up once this week everyday afterwards i took basically the bear minimum to feel normal, at most i got a *slight* rush for no more than a minute the days i took 2 and felt little to nothing within a couple minutes, yet i had more in my pocket and didn't do it. So yeah it is(was?) in my system but that doesn't mean i was high.

And about the benzos i get what you mean dexter. I know they are best for short term relief and thats exactly what i want it for. Do either of you (or anyone else) think that antidepressants such as SSRI's would help me for sleep in the long run? I have tried melatonin before i really think i should do a sleep clinic, because i could very well have some type of sleep disorder, in fact i would bet on it based on how my sleep schedule has been most of my life.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

^No benzos are good for a long term solution, as they are in no way a solution. They are splint for a broken leg. They can work great for the short run but in no way should they even be prescribed for the long run. It's irresponsible to prescribe them for long periods of time, unless the person is completely aware that they will have to detox and that it is going to be terrible. This isn't just from personal experience, it's how they work/don't.

A lot of people go into it thinking they'll never have to come down. Thanks for posting that!

I think only some individuals could use benzos daily for the long term and not get a tolerance to it. That's just not most people's experience.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Do either of you (or anyone else) think that antidepressants such as SSRI's would help me for sleep in the long run? I have tried melatonin before i really think i should do a sleep clinic, because i could very well have some type of sleep disorder, in fact i would bet on it based on how my sleep schedule has been most of my life.

Yeah, a sleep clinic should be able to help.

I did not find zoloft or wellbutrin to help my sleep at all. That's not to say you may not find positive results.

But don't use zoloft it has horrible WD's.

 

[caseface99]

Ehh... I've always had sort of a stigma against SSRI's, and zoloft in particular. As my sisters boyfriend killed himself shortly after being prescribed that way back when i was in like 8th grade. I don't know all the details but im fairly certain he was bi polar, in which case whoever gave that shit to him should have been charged with criminal neglect.


I can't remember the name of it right now but i have atleast 2 friends who are prescribed an ssri that they both claim helps them a lot. But every case is different so i know that doesn't mean it will work for me. Its going to bother me if i don't think of which one though ha.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Ehh... I've always had sort of a stigma against SSRI's, and zoloft in particular. As my sisters boyfriend killed himself shortly after being prescribed that way back when i was in like 8th grade. I don't know all the details but im fairly certain he was bi polar, in which case whoever gave that shit to him should have been charged with criminal neglect.

Honestly, the problem is what drugs are approved for depression, and how many drugs are illegal without reason.

It is known that most SSRI's can increase suicidial ideation in depressed individuals. It's also only approved for people under the age of 18 for OCD, and not depression.

Wellbutrin worked a lot better for me.

 

[caseface99]

Either way, ill probably stay away from Zoloft unless literally nothing else works.

And by the way sorry for hijacking this thread with my own problems, the suboxone issue has been confirmed.

 

[caseface99]

Oh yeah, except for the question about whether or not i can make my suboxone last longer by taking it under my tongue or shooting smaller amounts of it? Don't forget my goal is the make what little pills i have last as long as possible, i don't care about getting high as long as im not withdrawing. Its kinda nice to be back in a state of mind where i can just go buy some weed when i want to get high.



I know im going to get an answer about how shooting pills is a bad idea so please just save it, im not saying im even going to shoot it im just wondering what the truth about that would be with risk factors aside.


I know you IV your subs captain

 

[previouslyhere]

bupe taper with vicodin

today's my jump-off day with Bupe. I am jumping off of 0.5 mg/day. It hasnt even been a full 24h since my last 0.5mg dose and I'm already starting to feel mild WDs starting. I can't afford to jump off completely so I'm planning on using these 50 Vicodin ES 7.5mg to taper. I've been on subs for 2 years , started with 2MG and worked my way down to 1 MG. Been doing 0.5mg for about a week now.

Anyone recommend how to do this? What to start with and where to go from there? I have 50 pills... I am planning on starting the vike later tonight after its been a full 24h since my last dose of bupe

 

[DangerChamber]

today's my jump-off day with Bupe. I am jumping off of 0.5 mg/day. It hasnt even been a full 24h since my last 0.5mg dose and I'm already starting to feel mild WDs starting. I can't afford to jump off completely so I'm planning on using these 50 Vicodin ES 7.5mg to taper. I've been on subs for 2 years , started with 2MG and worked my way down to 1 MG. Been doing 0.5mg for about a week now.

Anyone recommend how to do this? What to start with and where to go from there? I have 50 pills... I am planning on starting the vike later tonight after its been a full 24h since my last dose of bupe

Are you trying to accomplish quitting opiates?