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Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

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Oxymorphone said:
He said some idiotic stuff like that I could ween of 2mg klonopin that I've been on for 2 years in 2 days, seriously wtf?
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WTF??? I know you know better than following such horrible advice...but really? He told you that?

Wow. That's appalling.

That made me not trust him more along with other things he said or did that showed he is completely incompetent, but I need a doctor to get my meds... I was afraid he would pull the plug on my suboxone at any time like the last asshole (because I got drunk one night and ended up in the hospital because I tried staying warm in a college building at 3am and security called an ambo).

Now basically I ended up relapsing since I tapered on my own to under 2mg before i was ready and had huge cravings and I eventually relapsed at that point.

Now I am explaining this all to him as to why I tried tapering then subsequently went back and forth between bupe and dope trying to get some help. His immediate reaction was "I'm not going to provide you with Suboxone anymore, I won't be responsible for your death." I was shocked. what he just said and tried to do is the exact thing that led me to relapse and I made it clear I wanted to stay on maintenance so nothing like that ever happens again.
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Wh....whhat? That guy must be a *moron*. What does that even mean? "I won't be responsible for your death"? That's an empty statement.

I calmly asked why nd reminded him that being denied bupe is what got me into trouble, and he says it's because I was mixing benzos with bupe and that is a deadly combination.
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??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

He's a quack.

I reminded him I have taken more benzos before with other doctors who all approved and aid it was fine and not dangerous in my case. I reminded him HE PRESCRIBED THEM BOTH TO ME AT THE SAME TIME, why the hell is he bringing this up now and using it as rational for pulling the plug on my bupe.
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Yeah...that totally doesn't make sense. It's like he's blaming you for the actions of your past doctor...and not anything you did at all. That's nonsensical to the max.

I got into a length debate about how it isn't dangerous and his response was to prove it to me by pulling out the Suboxone brand pamhllet where it says benzos combined with bupe can cause death. I again asked why he prescribed them both to me in the first place since he knew that from the beginning, and then went on to explain why it was not a problem for me and how absurd his rationale was. I was getting confrontational challenging him on his knowledge of pharmacology and how wrong he was abut the whole thing. I asked why he was trusting a pamphlet from a drug manufacturer that created suboxone as a complete gimmick to fool the FDA and medical community as being safer with naloxone, which he still believes makes it abuse proof. I wish I had a syringe on me so I could shoot it right in front of his face.. :!
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I feel you man...most doctors know shit for pharmacology. The problem is, the bar was lowered for doctors. So really as long as you can manage not to drool aimlessly all over yourself, and not piss your pants, and had enough money, you can probably become a doctor, not kidding at all sadly enough.

he continued to refuse to matter how much I explained which obviously made him feel uncomfortable that a patient knows more about drugs than him. I got furious since this is exactly why I went off bupe on my own since I can't trust doctors who will pull the plug on your meds at any time for RETARDED reasons. I needed more suboxone to stay clean and not go into the same cycle that made me relapse.

I was so furious by then that nothing I said and called him out on was sticking into his head claiming I am not a doctor and therefore don't know what I'm talking about when he gets his most trusted info from a little pamphlet. 8)I got up and started cursing him off shouting he was an irresponsible idiotic fucking old hack loud enough his waiting patients could hear the scene and was walking out the door when he told me to calm down and sit for a minute. :! I sat waiting to hear what he had to say and he eventually wrote me a scrip for 5 fucking days worth which I don't even need to fill since I have enough to hold me over until I find a new doctor.
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8o8o8o HOLY SHIT He STILL wrote you pills? After you cursed him the fuck out and everyone in his waiting room could hear?

Please at least take a picture of it, just for the LOLZ. You can black out your name and the DEA # & whatever other personal info you want... I just want to see he felt so insecure after you cursed him out that he still wrote you a script for 5 pills... I would get a real kick out of it. That would just PROVE how ignorant they really are.

If you didn't even pick it up from the front desk - I wouldn't blame you at all man. But if you have it I'd love to see it LOL!!!

Man I am SO sorry that doctor was such a douche. That sounds like it was a really frustrating experience.

It is pretty fucked up these poor excuses for doctors will put someone on suboxone maintenance then immediately stop providing treatment if anything goes wrong. I hate having my recovery in the hands of these idiots, I wish this shit was OTC so I don't have to waste money paying these fucktards who will eventually try to screw up my life. :|

So the lesson here is: Act like you know nothing about drugs and psychiatry in front of them because once you hurt their ego and make them look like the idiots they are then they will try to control you the only way they can which is with a prescription pad.
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I know exactly what you mean man. I really don't know why Suboxone isn't maybe not necessarily OTC, but not something you have to pay *so much money* for...I feel like it has the ability to help so many people, but corporate greed is once again stepping in the way of people getting recovery.

It's OK though, I know there's a Suboxone doctor out there who's willing to write you a script. There's a lot of them. Even if most of them are idiots, I'm sure you'll make it by one of them no problem.

I know some of them may be extra-bullshitty like he was, but there should be a doctor out there who is willing to help you out, without the BS.

Punishing you for what your doctor prescribed you is...childish at best. :\ Makes me wish I could become a doctor one day who's not afraid to be a bit liberal with prescribing drugs. Alas I don't think I have it in me to work with any other doctors...they would make me irate.

If I do become a Suboxone doc one day I'll let you all know! Maybe that's what I should do...hmm....choices in life huh.
 
Thanks for the support man, yeah I have the script in my wallet I'll take a pic of it and upload it later, lol. I'm glad I'm not insane. :o
 
The Least Worst Option

Oxymorphone said:
Ugh, another day, another dickhead retarded bupe doctor.

So today after seeing my psychiatrist who was prescribing me suboxone at 24mg a day along with 2mg klonopin (which i was also on for 3 months prior to seeing him and 5 doctors haven't had any issue with the combo) I was telling him about what led to my relapse and my plans for staying clean.

If you read my story on the first page the major reason that led to my relapse was having a bupe doctor who pulled the plug on me while I was in the ER/hospital and refused to prescribe me bupe unless I went to a 30 day+ rehab. So I was pretty pissed off and thought I might not find a new doc in time plus I lost all my trust and little respect left I had for psychiatrists and specifically those who specialize in addiction. So I started to taper on my own while starting to see this new psychiatrist who was providing me bupe. He said some idiotic stuff like that I could ween of 2mg klonopin that I've been on for 2 years in 2 days, seriously wtf? That made me not trust him more along with other things he said or did that showed he is completely incompetent, but I need a doctor to get my meds... I was afraid he would pull the plug on my suboxone at any time like the last asshole (because I got drunk one night and ended up in the hospital because I tried staying warm in a college building at 3am and security called an ambo).

Now basically I ended up relapsing since I tapered on my own to under 2mg before i was ready and had huge cravings and I eventually relapsed at that point.

Now I am explaining this all to him as to why I tried tapering then subsequently went back and forth between bupe and dope trying to get some help. His immediate reaction was "I'm not going to provide you with Suboxone anymore, I won't be responsible for your death." I was shocked. what he just said and tried to do is the exact thing that led me to relapse and I made it clear I wanted to stay on maintenance so nothing like that ever happens again.

I calmly asked why and reminded him that being denied bupe is what got me into trouble, and he says it's because I was mixing benzos with bupe and that is a deadly combination. I reminded him I have taken more benzos before with other doctors who all approved and said it was fine and not dangerous in my case. I reminded him HE PRESCRIBED THEM BOTH TO ME AT THE SAME TIME, why the hell is he bringing this up now and using it as rationale for not treating me?

I got into a length debate about how it isn't dangerous and his response was to prove it to me by pulling out the Suboxone brand pamphlet where it says benzos combined with bupe can cause death in a tiny bullet point/caution section. I again asked why he prescribed them both to me in the first place since he knew that from the beginning, and then went on to explain why it was not a problem for me and how absurd his rationale was. I was getting confrontational challenging him on his knowledge of pharmacology and how wrong he was abut the whole thing. I asked why he was trusting a pamphlet from a drug manufacturer that created suboxone as a complete gimmick to fool the FDA and medical community as being safer with naloxone, which he still believes makes it abuse proof. I wish I had a syringe on me so I could shoot it right in front of his face.. :!

He continued to refuse to matter how much I explained which obviously made him feel uncomfortable that a patient knows more about drugs than him. I got furious since this is exactly why I went off bupe on my own since I can't trust doctors who will pull the plug on your meds at any time for RETARDED reasons. I needed more suboxone to stay clean and not go into the same cycle that made me relapse.

I was so furious by then that nothing I said and called him out on was sticking into his head claiming I am not a doctor and therefore don't know what I'm talking about when he gets his most trusted info from a little pamphlet. 8) I got up and started cursing him off shouting he was an irresponsible idiotic fucking old hack who will stops prescribing drugs due to his incompetence with no regard to his patients safety and well being. I was loud enough his waiting patients could hear the scene and was walking out the door when he told me to calm down and sit for a minute. :! I sat waiting to hear what he had to say and he eventually wrote me a scrip for 5 fucking days worth which I don't even need to fill since I have enough to hold me over until I find a new doctor.

It is pretty fucked up these poor excuses for doctors will put someone on suboxone maintenance then immediately stop providing treatment if anything goes wrong. I hate having my recovery in the hands of these idiots, I wish this shit was OTC so I don't have to waste money paying these fucktards who will eventually try to screw up my life. :|

So the lesson here is: Act like you know nothing about drugs and psychiatry in front of them because once you hurt their ego and make them look like the idiots they are then they will try to control you the only way they can which is with a prescription pad. :o
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I really can see, and feel where you're coming from having had various similar experiences with sub maintenance. I have worked at both ends of the spectrum, from weeklyobligatory visits withUrine sample, daily supervised prescribing for 3 months essentially making me a prisoner to my home town.

At the other end of the scale I've walked into a General Practitioner in a European country, he'd never seen me before, no notes or anything, and trusting my word alone scripted me 56 8mg subutex and 56 2mg K-pins.Cost of visit, $15, cost of meds $40 (reimbursed) - no urine test, no clinical care etc.

And I've passed through the hands of various Doctors in various countries who fall somewhere between these two extremes - all different facets of Developed Western Healthcare systems and their differing philosophies on maintenance care. The GP-centred 'easy street' is a county whose philosophy is that subutex is one of the least abusable options and should be made generally available in the simplest manner (non-controled drug, any practitioner can prescribe, with seperate support facilities for the attendent issues of OPs WDs) - said country 'wrote the book' on sub maintenance as has only 5% of people on methadone.

My own experience is that an addict should not be left to choose ALL aspects of their care (because however you look at it addicts are addicts, even in maintenance).Even (and especially) doctors who specialise in maintenance are aware that a script with their name on it could kill someone - hence the systems that require a long period of trust building (Urine tests, supervised prescribing etc). If the Doctor feels that trust has broken down, if you admit to erratic behaviour, then you're back to square one as he has to be able to justify giving an unstable patient a script that could lead to serious harm(career-ending harm).

My advice would be, know the system you are tied to, and in the absence of other options (legal) stick to the rules and know that any fuck up is going to be pinned on you be that system (that could mean relapse=no script in one system, or relapse = no problem in another).

If you know the system and still fuck up, then you have to accept your role in that...not neccessarily that you've 'done wrong' or are 'bad', but rather you didn't play the rules.

Think yourself lucky, maintenance is a govt. licenced system, most non-Western govts. offer no such help, except CT is some shitty prison system.

My advise would be to be thankful that MMT,BMT etc exist where you live - and learn to work to their rules, however much they suck. Addiction treatment as a field has a long way to go, and a lot to learn - but I'd rather have what's on offer than nothing at all.

PAX
 
if someone was doing 1mg bupe everyday IV for few months, and hadnt done heroin in months decides to stop the bupe and do heroin for four days(long enough to not get physically addicted to the heroin) would most of the bupe withdrawal be over with since the iving reduces half life on the fifth day
 
needlejuice said:
if someone was doing 1mg bupe everyday IV for few months, and hadnt done heroin in months decides to stop the bupe and do heroin for four days(long enough to not get physically addicted to the heroin) would most of the bupe withdrawal be over with since the iving reduces half life on the fifth day
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Haha good luck with that one dude. I can guarantee if you go down this route and interrupt your maintenance to do heroin for 4 days even if you stop then in a few days or maybe a week later you will go back to heroin again and the back and forth cycle between bupe and dope will continue and get out of control until there is a point down the line where your life is a wreck and you either go over to heroin or suboxone use entirely. :|

Cheating doesn't work.

Sincerely,
Everyone who has tried.
 
needlejuice said:
if someone was doing 1mg bupe everyday IV for few months, and hadnt done heroin in months decides to stop the bupe and do heroin for four days(long enough to not get physically addicted to the heroin) would most of the bupe withdrawal be over with since the iving reduces half life on the fifth day
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Buprenorphine "withdrawal" typically lasts a lot longer than 4 days.

Most people cannot use heroin for 4 days and simply walk away from it.
 
Had relatively small habit, approx 0.25g black tar/day.

Did last shot this morning, estimated at 0.08g - felt slight effects but those subsided within an hour.

Started feeling 'shitty' - eyes watering (tears streaming down cheeks), runny nose, achy joints, anxiety.

Took 1mg suboxone approx 7 hours after that last shot from this morning.

Don't feel any better, nor do I feel any worse.

My question then is: am I out of the woods as far as precipitated withdrawals might be concerned? Would I be safe taking another 2-3mg sub?

Thank you!
 
^If you never feel any worse take some more. I'll usually wait a good 1.5hrs though before I up it. Yes it kicks in in a good 45mins, but you want to see how you feel once that initial wave wears off imo. Sunny today no?:)
 
scruples said:
Had relatively small habit, approx 0.25g black tar/day.

Did last shot this morning, estimated at 0.08g - felt slight effects but those subsided within an hour.

Started feeling 'shitty' - eyes watering (tears streaming down cheeks), runny nose, achy joints, anxiety.

Took 1mg suboxone approx 7 hours after that last shot from this morning.

Don't feel any better, nor do I feel any worse.

My question then is: am I out of the woods as far as precipitated withdrawals might be concerned? Would I be safe taking another 2-3mg sub?

Thank you!
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Yeah you are safe. You would have felt the precipitated WD's with 1mg.

You're good to take another 2-3 mg.

Hope it works out for you man.
 
DexterMeth said:
Ya man, once I get fully out of clonazepam DTs I'll be able to say I enjoy the light again. :) ...fucking daytime death star
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Good luck man! I know coming off of drugs can be hard, benzos especially so.

Feel free to keep us updated on the progress.

I know someone and I watched them go through delirium tremens, it appeared to be a rather painful process. That was from ethyl alcohol though.
 
Thx bro. It's 99.9% mental and .1% physical. Well aside from tremors, crawling skin, sweats, runs, insomnia, and/or the geneneral feeling that a full blown seizure is about to come on at any second. It's the depersonalization & derealization that makes it difficult. I spent the last year and a half abusing the fuck out of G/BDO, and even detoxted in jail off of that and suboxone. It's so slow, drawn out and unrelenting. Times like these I'm glad I've gone through so many opiate detoxes.
 
DexterMeth said:
Thx bro. It's 99.9% mental and .1% physical. Well aside from tremors, crawling skin, sweats, runs, insomnia, and/or the geneneral feeling that a full blown seizure is about to come on at any second. It's the depersonalization & derealization that makes it difficult. I spent the last year and a half abusing the fuck out of G/BDO, and even detoxted in jail off of that and suboxone. It's so slow, drawn out and unrelenting. Times like these I'm glad I've gone through so many opiate detoxes.
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What do you mean by "G/BDO"?

Most of your symptoms remind me of opiate WD, at least to a degree or in a similar sense.

Depersonalization and derealization, and especially time dilation, are especially tricky. They're common among a lot of psychedelic adventures I have had. It's always hard to experience it, all you can do is be overwhelmed by the sense you have no idea where/who you are. But the sense of where and who you are will always come back, no matter how long (seemingly or actually) it takes. At least that's what I've deducted from many trips I have had. A 4 hour mushroom peak may seem like 4 weeks to you, but after it's over, you'll come back. I assume that days/weeks of it may seem like years, and that may make it that much worse.

Also a question: did you taper at all, or are you choosing to cold turkey? Or a little of both?
 
*"GHB/GBL & 1,4-BDO

*That definately makes sense and actually puts some shit into perspective.

*I started tapering from 16mg down quickly to 8mg overnight when I last OD'd and could be injected with lorazepam to get to sleep. That was for one week. Then when I got home I went down .5mg every 2 weeks, and after almost 3 weeks at .25mg I just stopped taking it.
 
DexterMeth said:
*"GHB/GBL & 1,4-BDO

*That definately makes sense and actually puts some shit into perspective.

*I started tapering from 16mg down quickly to 8mg overnight when I last OD'd and could be injected with lorazepam to get to sleep. That was for one week. Then when I got home I went down .5mg every 2 weeks, and after almost 3 weeks at .25mg I just stopped taking it.
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Sounds like you did a good job tapering. I haven't heard of 1,4-BDO, is that similar to GHB/GBL?

Sorry to hear about all the WD symptoms as well.

By the way - what did you OD on? A combination of CNS depressants?
 
yeah man, check out 1,4-bdo here on BL. It's still legal in many places because it's such a commonly used industrial solvent. I partially converts into GHB the other chemical I forgot the name, but it feels very much like "dirty alcohol" although harder hitting.

On 25 nice pods and 1,4-BDO. I was very surprised to wake up in a hospital too. My other really bad hospital overdose was a few years before on IV fentanyl, oral morphine and GBL. Hmm...maybe I should just stick with opiates and not touch the solvents?
 
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