Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[Captain.Heroin]

Why is Suboxone pleasant at a lower dosage, and unpleasant at a higher dosage?

I felt like explaining this so everyone can understand why, for the most part, there is a certain ideal dosage you want to take, and taking anything above that is counter-productive.

Norbuprenorphine is the primary active metabolite of buprenorphine. Norbuprenorphine acts as a μ-opioid, δ-opioid, and nociceptin receptor full agonist,[1][2] as well as a κ-opioid receptor partial agonist.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbuprenorphine

Knowing that buprenorphine's main metabolite has full delta-opioid agonist effects, let's read about a completely unrelated opiate from the oripavine family called BU-48.

The parent compound from which BU-48 was derived (with N-methyl rather than methylcyclopropyl on the nitrogen and lacking the aliphatic hydroxyl group) is a powerful μ-opioid agonist 1000x more potent than morphine,[1] but in contrast BU-48 has only weak analgesic effects and instead acts primarily as a δ-opioid agonist. Its main effects are to produce convulsions,[2] but it may also have antidepressant effects.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BU-48

Now that we know that this delta opioid agonist can lead to convulsions, (though not all delta opioid agonists lead to this), it could be assumed that delta opioid agonists could certainly be unpleasant in too high of a dosage. I think this is primarily what causes irritability at higher than necessary doses of buprenorphine.

What I also find interesting is this other opiate from the oripavine family because it sounds right up my alley in terms of effects, it is called cyprenorphine.

Cyprenorphine has mixed agonist-antagonist effects at opioid receptors, like those of buprenorphine. However the effects of cyprenorphine are somewhat different, as it produces pronounced dysphoric and hallucinogenic effects which limit its potential use as an analgesic.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprenorphine

 

[rocksonboxone]

Ive been on suboxone for over 2 years now.
IDK, I used to feel like you, I kind of stopped caring after a while, and just accepted that Id be on it for the long haul.

But everyone is different, and if it is important enough to you, then you can do it! The problem is that the half life of bupe is huge and it stays in the system so long, dragging out the w/d process.
I have heard from friends that it is actually easier to swap the bupe for codeine and just do a taper from the codeine since the w/d is over alot quicker and probably the same intensity.

I have never had any adverse affects from using it at all, not one problem in over two years, I have even managed to get the constipation under control with some stool softers

As much as I like the bupe, I would like to go back to full agonists eventually, like when im an old man or something. I have tried to switch back for a while here and there but I never feel right once I stop the bupe, and end up just taking it again.
Bupe makes me feel great and I like to be on it, its not so bad once you accept it, but if you really want to stop just go for it.

 

[Bupe]

CH that's a good start but it doesn't really help with figuring out how to take the right amount. Also can you answer my question on the last page? thanks

 

[i are spectre]

interesting post there cap'n. i try and explain to people how their massive doses of bupe is only having negative effects. last night i used 1mg and i felt fantastic. anything above 2mg doses is just dirty for me, irritability some call it. i've noticed this aspect of opioids seems to increase with daily or long term usage, or both.

i recall using poppy pods and after several months all it did was induce a dull sense of euphoria, and plenty of irritability. unfortunately i notice this with the bupe too, but not so much, as long as you stay in the low doses, at least for me.

hmm also interesting that it (norbupe) is a FULL agonist at the delta, mu, and nociceptin receptors. i think that is our culprit then when it comes to withdrawal severity, not the bupe itself. this inspires me to read more about bupe metabolites and what they bind too. thanks buddy!

 

[i are spectre]

after a bit of research on norbupe and bupe, i came up with an idea. from what i udnerstand, bupe is dealkylated by 3A4 into norbupe, a full agonist at mu and delta opioid receptor sites. now, if one were to inhibit 3A4, the full agonist effects of norbupe would be reduced, leaving more bupe to only partially agonize the lovely receptor sites that may have caused so much trial and tribulation in some of our lives. it did for me.

now sure, the "high" would not be pronounced, assuming this is all true, but wouldnt the withdrawal or recession of the bupe be much more manageable? considering the norbupe plasma levels are greatly reduced, the person would mostly deal with the partial agonist withdrawal only, and not the full agonist metabolite. make sense? easier transition to sobriety?

 

[Bupe]

How does promethazine mix with bupe? I had no idea it was a strong opiate potentiator until just now.

 

[adder]

Acetorphine is not norbuprenorphine. Acetorphine is 3-acetyloetorphine. Buprenorphine is by no means metabolized by CYP3A4 into acetorphine. Where did you get that idea from? Different side chain at C6, the sixth ring has a double bond between C15 and C16 and it's got an acetoxy group at C3. Well, never mind - acetorphine is a product of acetylating etorphine at C3.

 

[i are spectre]

sorry i edited my post.

 

[jamesBrown]

damn i just typed five paragraphs and lost it all... round 2.

im wondering what side effects people have experienced for long term bupe maintenance. i've tried several times to get off this, all the way down to 1mg skip days, but i fail. now i am in school, so im scared shitless to try to get off again. i cant even be in mild withdrawal and go to chem labs or whichever class, let alone manage my fucking life.

the reason it is so hard to taper is because i have the 8mg tabs, not from a doctor, so i cant go to 2mg tabs. this makes it very hard to go to low doses. im walking around with tiny suboxone crumbs in my wallet, just trying to stay normal. captain heroins taper method is ideal... for an IV user. you can dilute bupe in water and have precise and accurate doses that can easily be titrated and tapered down. perhaps there is a way to increase oral BA so i could drink exact mL/ug doses?

what i have done in the past is go from sniffing it, to sublingual, then to oral over time. perhaps, even though it is not cost effective, which i honestly dont care about, i could just dose orally with liquid? has anyone done this? i could drink 4mg, which would be .4mg if it is a 10% BA. then drink 3.5mg, 3mg, and so on over the course of weeks/months, ya?

it is too hard to have lines out and dividing the lines up. the dose is innacurate and i prefer other ROA because of a slower onset/longer duration.

does anyone have an opinion on the oral taper? i would go through a lot more suboxone but it would be more exact doses, and i could go down to 0.01mg if i wanted to.

i am not one of those people who can just stop the bupe, the withdrawal for me is disgusting, and being in any type of discomfort... for weeks... well that has relapse written all over it. all i can think about is using when it starts to come on, the yawns and all that, watery eyes... yuck. it is just too damn hard to dose this shit out when im snorting what i THINK is 1/48th of a pill. and then im looking at a plate with a lot more bupe on it, jeez i could just snort that and feel great and be chirpy, now im back a month.

perhaps i should stay on this forever. it is a depressing thought, though. i know i could feel better again, but it would take MONTHS. i would need to be locked up in a cell or on a fucking island again.

so once again, if anyone could give me a heads up on some long term side effects they have noticed, because maybe i will take this for the rest of my life. the other shit side is that i dont need 8mg a day, and if i see a doc, it would just be more money, but one less thing to worry about rather than hoping whoever else is still prescribed so i can get it. i mean isnt it always ~$8 a tab/day, regardless of dose? paying 8 dollars a day for a 2mg tab would suck! although if i fail a few more times trying to get off this i probably should see a doctor.

i was planning to taper down to 1mg again then use tramadol and xanax for the end, but i fear it may not work out, and this is all during a pretty intense school schedule and full time job that keeps me alive and in this house.

how about for people who have been on this stuff for a year-ish or more, how did you taper off successfully? i hear that a lot of doctors switch you to other things in the end taper.

bupe is serious stuff for me, and from my experience, it looks like a three month span to return to normal. maybe next summer break wont be as fun as the others...

thanks to anyone who has any input, i got off one hell of a benzo habit, and now this is the final battle. im kind of angry they prescribe such high doses, i swear theyre trying to get people hooked on this, i mean why not. temgesic would help so much, or an extremely expensive scale.

thanks again

I dont understand why you say its difficult to make smaller doses than 1 mg of suboxone when your not mixing it into a liquid for injection......

I personally IV suboxone so it doesnt apply to me....

But....is it really that hard to crush up an 8 mg pill and seperate it into 16 different piles to make each pile .5 mg's? or even 32 piles.... .25 mg's???

its not that hard, i promise ive done it before...and I know it wont be PERFECTLY accurate but as long as your not an idiot it will be close enough.

I think this is what you should do instead of simply lowering your dose to 1 mg then jumping off....if your taking ...say.... .25 mg's.....it will be sooo much easier to quit than with 1 mg. It's not hard at all.

In fact...I take .5 mg doses a day and i can stop using for extended periods of time(over a week) without going through any withdrawal....meaning im not addicted to it and I dont HAVE to take it....I just choose to for its anti-depressant properties.

 

[Znegative]

you can still use water measurements and take it sublingually. just crush it up and draw it up into a syringe like you would for I.V, and then shoot it into a cotton ball and shove that under your tongue, waterline it, or put it up your ass. If I tapered sublingually, by the time I got down to lower than one mg, I would probably switch to a different ROA because when your putting just a little crumb under your tongue, chances are that most of that is gonna end up being swallowed, and hence, wasting the buprenorphine.

Also, to james Brown. This is kind of a past issue now, but I know that the ethically right thing to do, as well as the right thing to do for my own well being is to take the sub as prescribed, and not jump back and fourth between partial and full agonists.

My problem is that dosing suboxone really DOESN't help with my cravings. All it does is make me apathetic to the point where I might be too lazy to cop. I also find that the mild /;buzz" it gives can sometimes be a tease, which then makes me want to go out and cop some smack, or if I'm on a high dose, shoot some coke instead. I look at suboxone as a drug that helps elliminate withdrawals, and gives you a little bit of energy, and thats ok. Different people experience it differently, but all in all, I don't think that it is wrong to use suboxone for safety measures, or go back and forth between dope and subs. It's not the smartest thing to do, and we all know where it will lead, but is it really worse than just not having the suboxone at all? Any day you spend where your not getting doped up off your ass is a day where a good opportunity can come about. And believe me, I truely do try and walk a righteous path. I believe in being good to people, and giving what I can, but everyone gives in to temptation at times, and I havn't yet come to a place where I can really devote myself to being clean off of opiates.

 

[Paulination]

after a bit of research on norbupe and bupe, i came up with an idea. from what i udnerstand, bupe is dealkylated by 3A4 into norbupe, a full agonist at mu and delta opioid receptor sites. now, if one were to inhibit 3A4, the full agonist effects of norbupe would be reduced, leaving more bupe to only partially agonize the lovely receptor sites that may have caused so much trial and tribulation in some of our lives. it did for me.

now sure, the "high" would not be pronounced, assuming this is all true, but wouldnt the withdrawal or recession of the bupe be much more manageable? considering the norbupe plasma levels are greatly reduced, the person would mostly deal with the partial agonist withdrawal only, and not the full agonist metabolite. make sense? easier transition to sobriety?

I've heard that norbuprenorphine dosent cause any effects really but ur saying if we inhibit the 3a4 with gfj or ketoconazole We wouldn't get as high if u inhibit the cup34a enzyme many medical journals say u have increased plasma levels of buprenorphine getting u more high if u have the time please post the links that talk about how norbube gets u higher than buprenorphine

 

[Dr Pepper]

Thought it'd be relevant:
Just split my only 8mg suboxone pill into 21 doses. At 1st i was going to go like 1mg, 1mg, .5, .5......etc etc
but instead i just broke it down and ordered the chunks in order from largest to smallest. Sure its not exact, but the amounts decrease a little each day, some days there might be the teeniest amount more than the previous, but overall it goes from a bit under 1mg to nothing over 21 days. Just capped em and numbered em and im set! -Will be plugging/insulffating. I dont see a need for the reduction of 50% when your stepping down, IMO a gradual decline seems better. Ill let u know how it goes

 

[Georgie25]

Something weird happened last night.

In the morning I did my normal dose of 1.5mg IV'd and everything went fine. Did a 1mg shot around 6 P.M then around 12 A.M I did another shot and about 15 minutes later I start to feel very very cold, I had the AC on in my room so i turned it off, still was getting colder and colder. Then I start having muscle spasms, huge headache, shaking uncontrollabley really bad, my whole body went like really pale. So I tried laying down and i laid there for about an hour thinking I was gonna die, shaking uncontrollabley and felt really really hot, and my skin color turned blotchy and a lot more red I guess from my body temperature. If it didn't stop I was gonna go to the ER since I thoughr I had blood infection or something. Cause I was using a used rig, old re used cotton with old blood probally in it... so has anyone ever experienced that? I did my morning shot today hoping it wouldn't happen again and made sure to use all new cotton and even another suboxone pill incase that one i used yesterday was tainted, lol, but everything went fine today.

I know it sounds kinda like precipitated withdrawals but I havn't done any other opiate besides subs in months so it couldn't have been. I'm thinking maybe a blood infection or something? Would that just go away without hospital help though?

 

[rocksonboxone]

Sounds like it *could* have been cotton fever. Not sure though, maybe to many bupe doses to close together?
I always use a brand new sealed rig each time I shoot, now if that is not possible for you than its understandable, but re-using old cottons is just asking for trouble. If I dont have extra microns on hand then I always use a old(cleaned) syringe packed up to the 15 unit mark with cotton, draw the solution through balled cotton, backload, filter, and draw back up through another cotton ball into the rig I am going to IV with. Part of that may be paranoia, but with these suboxone tabs, and extra step is worth it, lot of nasty crap in those pills.
Seriously though, we all have to deal with the situations as they present themselves, but re-using cottons is always a very bad idea...

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Wow, six weeks of weaning myself off of bupe and now I can get a mild high from IVing.2-.5mg. I've gotten an effect twice and I waited three days between each dose.

Did I use too much or is that a good dose? I want to get the most out of it while minimizing any tolerance or decreased euphoria. How often can you dose and at what dose?

Hey Bupe, sorry I didn't reply to this sooner.

0.2mg to 0.5mg is probably an ideal dose for most. I have personally gotten down to about 0.026mg per shot. I think 0.2mg is the most you would want to do in one shot.

How often you can dose via IV buprenorphine is varied. Some people only need to do it 2-3 times per day, but I normally do it at least 4 to 8 times per day. Keep in mind I am only using 26 mcg per shot, so doing it 8 times per day is roughly 0.2mg per day.

I think the duration is dose-dependent, but it normally lasts 3 or 4 hours in my experience. It can last up to 7 or 8 hours, but I find it averages out around 4 hours.

It will wear off quickly compared to other ROA's, that is to be expected. You are bypassing the protein binding that buprenorphine typically undergoes with other ROA's, so it is metabolized quicker.

Something weird happened last night.

In the morning I did my normal dose of 1.5mg IV'd and everything went fine. Did a 1mg shot around 6 P.M then around 12 A.M I did another shot and about 15 minutes later I start to feel very very cold, I had the AC on in my room so i turned it off, still was getting colder and colder. Then I start having muscle spasms, huge headache, shaking uncontrollabley really bad, my whole body went like really pale. So I tried laying down and i laid there for about an hour thinking I was gonna die, shaking uncontrollabley and felt really really hot, and my skin color turned blotchy and a lot more red I guess from my body temperature. If it didn't stop I was gonna go to the ER since I thoughr I had blood infection or something. Cause I was using a used rig, old re used cotton with old blood probally in it... so has anyone ever experienced that? I did my morning shot today hoping it wouldn't happen again and made sure to use all new cotton and even another suboxone pill incase that one i used yesterday was tainted, lol, but everything went fine today.

I know it sounds kinda like precipitated withdrawals but I havn't done any other opiate besides subs in months so it couldn't have been. I'm thinking maybe a blood infection or something? Would that just go away without hospital help though?

Yeah I think it has to do with coagulated blood, bacteria, or something else which is causing a "cotton fever" like reaction.

I would definitely get some clean needles if at all possible.

But....is it really that hard to crush up an 8 mg pill and seperate it into 16 different piles to make each pile .5 mg's? or even 32 piles.... .25 mg's???

its not that hard, i promise ive done it before...and I know it wont be PERFECTLY accurate but as long as your not an idiot it will be close enough.

Thanks for posting that James.

This is exactly what I did (with a pill splitter, crusher, mirror and razor) before I started micron filtering.

How does promethazine mix with bupe? I had no idea it was a strong opiate potentiator until just now.

I haven't tried promethazine with buprenorphine (I have only had it while being very sick) but I know mixing doxylamine, diphenhydramine, or hydroxyzine with buprenorphine makes it very sedating, and increases euphoria.

It's hard to explain unless you do it yourself, but all in all, unless you are looking forward to extra sedation/sleepiness, I would save antihistamines for when you are looking for those sorts of effects.

 

[pixplzthx]

.026... point zero two six?

It makes me want to start chanting "Jump! Jump! Jump!" Is it the love of the needle that keeps you poking? At .9 to 1.change per day, you could possibly get to .013 per shot in just a few weeks.

 

[Bupe]

Hey Bupe, sorry I didn't reply to this sooner.

0.2mg to 0.5mg is probably an ideal dose for most. I have personally gotten down to about 0.026mg per shot. I think 0.2mg is the most you would want to do in one shot.

How often you can dose via IV buprenorphine is varied. Some people only need to do it 2-3 times per day, but I normally do it at least 4 to 8 times per day. Keep in mind I am only using 26 mcg per shot, so doing it 8 times per day is roughly 0.2mg per day.

I think the duration is dose-dependent, but it normally lasts 3 or 4 hours in my experience. It can last up to 7 or 8 hours, but I find it averages out around 4 hours.

It will wear off quickly compared to other ROA's, that is to be expected. You are bypassing the protein binding that buprenorphine typically undergoes with other ROA's, so it is metabolized quicker.



Yeah I think it has to do with coagulated blood, bacteria, or something else which is causing a "cotton fever" like reaction.

I would definitely get some clean needles if at all possible.



Thanks for posting that James.

This is exactly what I did (with a pill splitter, crusher, mirror and razor) before I started micron filtering.



I haven't tried promethazine with buprenorphine (I have only had it while being very sick) but I know mixing doxylamine, diphenhydramine, or hydroxyzine with buprenorphine makes it very sedating, and increases euphoria.

It's hard to explain unless you do it yourself, but all in all, unless you are looking forward to extra sedation/sleepiness, I would save antihistamines for when you are looking for those sorts of effects.

Thanks. Does that mean you can dose more frequently without the risk of tollerance? I still haven't gotten a full blown high or anything half way there.... Will waiting a week get me there perhaps? What about with promethazine, anyone try it?

 

[jamesBrown]

Thanks. Does that mean you can dose more frequently without the risk of tollerance? I still haven't gotten a full blown high or anything half way there.... Will waiting a week get me there perhaps? What about with promethazine, anyone try it?

yes, if you wait a week inbetween doses of suboxone it will definitely make the high MUCH stronger and euphoric.....

Ive found that at my daily doses of 0.5 mg's or less I allready get a good euphoric buzz from it but when I wait a couple days or more and dose(sometimes ill dose rectally after a feww days off) it works WAAAY better....almost like a full agonist high. very nice

 

[Captain.Heroin]

.026... point zero two six?

It makes me want to start chanting "Jump! Jump! Jump!" Is it the love of the needle that keeps you poking? At .9 to 1.change per day, you could possibly get to .013 per shot in just a few weeks.

Yes, 26 micrograms.

To be honest, buprenorphine has very good stimulant like properties for me, and I utilize its stimulant effects for the purpose of self-medicating for ADHD. Instead of taking stimulants (like dexedrine) on a daily basis, buprenorphine is a much better option.

I do enjoy getting to IV buprenorphine. It synergizes well with antihistamines, benzos, and weed.

It is possible for me to keep tapering, and I do plan on it. However I am tapering at a very slow rate, I will probably stick around 26 mcg per shot for at least a whole month (I dissolved one 8mg tablet into a whole 30ml of bac. water - the 1 month estimation includes 8 to 10 shots per day by the way, which is probably the largest # of shots I do in a day). I still have a lot of the solution left to go. I am very happy how well buprenorphine has helped me though. I am honestly surprised how potent buprenorphine is for me.

Also, at this rate, I'm not sure if I will ever have to discontinue buprenorphine use either. If I continue tapering, I virtually will never have to quit. If I don't taper any further, I might run out in about 20 years from now (if I don't go back to my Suboxone doctor, which I haven't done for a while due to a severe lack of money - if I do visit him again, those figures get pushed back even further).

Thanks. Does that mean you can dose more frequently without the risk of tollerance? I still haven't gotten a full blown high or anything half way there.... Will waiting a week get me there perhaps? What about with promethazine, anyone try it?

You can dose more frequently, and I don't think tolerance will become an issue. I think tolerance to buprenorphine is more dose-dependent (meaning IVing 2mg in one go *would* raise my tolerance), so if you stick to a certain dosage, there shouldn't be any tolerance to the effects.

In fact, I almost find repeated dosing yields better results, probably because there's a steady level of buprenorphine constantly going into and then out of your body. Continuing this cycle is what yields euphoria to me.

If I haven't done buprenorphine in a while, and I do it, the high is seemingly no better to me. By the 2nd shot I start to "feel better" so to speak.

yes, if you wait a week inbetween doses of suboxone it will definitely make the high MUCH stronger and euphoric.....

Maybe if I injected more than just 26 mcg this would be the case for me too?

That's my suspicion at least.

 

[Bupe]

yes, if you wait a week inbetween doses of suboxone it will definitely make the high MUCH stronger and euphoric.....

Ive found that at my daily doses of 0.5 mg's or less I allready get a good euphoric buzz from it but when I wait a couple days or more and dose(sometimes ill dose rectally after a feww days off) it works WAAAY better....almost like a full agonist high. very nice

noted