Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ and Megathread v.1; 2007 - 2010

[KnowBudz]

The "best" maintenance dose is the lowest amount that alleviates withdrawals and cravings, and that dose can change with time in treatment. I always wonder "why?" when I read about those who try tapering down so they can get high.

For those of us who suffered terribly from opiate addiction, then found relief through ORT, feeling normal is a gift, a gift that is, in itself, the whole point of being in ORT. I've done all the tinkering with my dose, cheating on the side with a variety of drugs, but the end is always the same....trouble.

 

[StaffWriter]

Same at my Walgreen's. What annoyed me was that they told me they would no longer give me Walgreen's prescription plan "discount" (I think it used to be like 20 or 25% ) on 8mg Suboxone because now there's a generic available!

Switched from Suboxone to Subutex for generic? From 2 to 8mg? They have generic 8mg Suboxone now too (if you can find it).

Well, I figured that it was "Subutex" that went generic, therefore, your discount plan should still hold up because there is no generic for "Suboxone". Am I right? I just wanted to switch for the discount. Im currently on 6mg of bupe, down from the usual 16mg dosage. Hopefully, either I will be off sub by the time my script runs out or there will be plenty of Subutex generic in the warehouse by the next time I get a refill. I'll just buy 20 at a time instead of the whole 60 count.

 

[Falcon0r]

Hey I have read through several pages of this megathread and I am confused: Is it SAFE to shoot Suboxone? I understand that while Suboxone has Naloxone in it, the Bupe has a higher affinity so it still 'hits' you. (My terms may be wrong, I don't fully understand the whole binding affinity thing but I get the general idea). But everyone I have talked to claims it is not safe. The usual thing I hear is "Just because it dissolves so easily does not mean it is safe to shoot". Any real answers? Captain Heroin, you seem very knowledgeable, I'd love some input from you.

Also another question. I am on suboxone for suboxone maintenance. I started at the beginning of September with 16mg a day (I had a .5g +/- a day IV heroin addiction for several months) and now I am at the point where I only really take Suboxone if I remember, every other day or every third day. I do feel what I assume to be withdrawals when I get to the third day. As for "getting high on suboxone", can that be done with sublingual dosing? Because at one time not too long ago, after waiting 3 days since my previous Suboxone dose, I dissolved 6 of them under my tongue (2 at a time) and felt, what I believed to be, a buzz. Similar to someone with little to mild opiate tolerance eating 5-10mg of Hydrocodone. Not much, but something. Now, my girlfriend with NO opiate tolerance can snort 1-2mg and get high. So I am just curious about this. This brings me to the following questions that I need some help with:
1: Tolerance - If I keep taking a small dose, sublingually, of about 2mg every other (or every third day), will my tolerance still be actively "dropping"?
2: Can you use recreational recreational after taking a regular dose of it? Like, can I take 2mg sublingually and then the next day snort a bunch?

Basically, where I am at now is that I am a Suboxone patient who is on the very end of the program and just realized that Suboxone is an incredibly powerful pain killer that is capable of getting some people really, really high, and I don't want to miss out.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

How much do you take per day? I would love to be able to use some oxy but I have a feeling I would need to wait 2 days at least and I don't think I take that much now.

I take roughly 1mg or less of buprenorphine per day.

It's interesting to think at this rate I consume a gram of buprenorphine every 33 months.

What CH said seems generalizable. I and others I know taking low-medium doses (2mg a day, SL) can still get good bang-for-the-buck euphoria. The blockade at that level seems roughly equivalent to ordinary tolerance. Plus, it seems that if you still have enough of your previous bupe dose in you, then you can get high on full agonists, then go back to suboxone without any withdrawal, precipitated or otherwise.

I seriously think that you don't need to wait more than 24 at the levels you're talking about (I'm assuming you IV the oxy).

The "does Naloxone really do anything" issue: yes, IMO, pointless if you're just banging Suboxone.

But: one time I was so stuporous on methadone/heroin (say 100mg and/or several bags a day for a week) that I just shot up 2mg of suboxone without thinking. Of course, it instantly precipitated severe withdrawal. I assumed that it was the naloxone that did the worst -- it felt the same as being naltrexoned/narcaned at the hospital, and the worst of the precipitated wd's completely wore off after 1 hour (replaced by something like post-acute wd, lasting 1 day). I figured that was because naloxone had a short half-life. Doing it SL seems to actually cause longer precipitated withdrawal.

My thinking (later, when I could think) was that 2mg of Bupe certainly antagonized MOST of the heroin, throwing me into severe withdrawal, but that the naloxone still kicked off the rest of the H (not the Bupe). So it gave me an Ultra-Rapid detox for an hour or so...woulda been severe either way, naloxone just made it supersevere.

Or do you think it was Bupe the whole time that messed me up?

It was the buprenorphine which sent you into precipitated WD. If you overdosed on opiates, then it's good you had a shot of naloxone or naltrexone, as overdosing isn't fun.

It's interesting that sublingual Suboxone causes a longer precipitated WD.

Hey I have read through several pages of this megathread and I am confused: Is it SAFE to shoot Suboxone? I understand that while Suboxone has Naloxone in it, the Bupe has a higher affinity so it still 'hits' you. (My terms may be wrong, I don't fully understand the whole binding affinity thing but I get the general idea). But everyone I have talked to claims it is not safe. The usual thing I hear is "Just because it dissolves so easily does not mean it is safe to shoot". Any real answers? Captain Heroin, you seem very knowledgeable, I'd love some input from you.

Nothing is safe to shoot. Even shooting enough air will kill you.

A sterile ampule is the best way to shoot anything, but even then you can hit an artery and without going to the hospital, bad things will happen.

So really, when people are shooting stuff like Ritalin or OC's, street heroin (pure or not, sterile or not), their own saliva and/or urine (read around here - people have tried this - I advise you don't)...and you compare shooting Suboxone to this, then in this comparison, Suboxone by far is much safer to shoot.

If everything is sterile, you should be able to IV Suboxone as safely as you can anything else; it's just that since Suboxone is not meant for IV, missing a shot of it can be worse than missing a shot of an ampule.

To be quite literal about this, most people shoot things that aren't 100% "safe to shoot" - the most popular drugs/products to IV are not sterile ampules. So really, when people are saying "don't shoot Suboxone!!!" they should be saying "don't shoot anything!!!" and we all know no one follows that advice because it follows the logic of "just say no!"

I've shot heroin (powder not tar), cocaine, 2c-E, ketamine, MDA, midazolam, flurazepam, oxycodone, hydromorphone, and lots of Suboxone. Not a single one of these drugs were found in sterile ampules. The 2c-E and ketamine were pure and most likely sterile. The MDA was high quality as well, but the rest of the drugs were not pure and obviously not guaranteed to be sterile.

So really, if you ask yourself the question "Is Suboxone safe to shoot?" the answer is "Just as safe as most other pills/street drugs." If you are going to IV Suboxone, get some micron filters online at gpzservices.com for $5/each - they are worth it.

Also another question. I am on suboxone for suboxone maintenance. I started at the beginning of September with 16mg a day (I had a .5g +/- a day IV heroin addiction for several months) and now I am at the point where I only really take Suboxone if I remember, every other day or every third day. I do feel what I assume to be withdrawals when I get to the third day. As for "getting high on suboxone", can that be done with sublingual dosing? Because at one time not too long ago, after waiting 3 days since my previous Suboxone dose, I dissolved 6 of them under my tongue (2 at a time) and felt, what I believed to be, a buzz. Similar to someone with little to mild opiate tolerance eating 5-10mg of Hydrocodone. Not much, but something. Now, my girlfriend with NO opiate tolerance can snort 1-2mg and get high. So I am just curious about this. This brings me to the following questions that I need some help with:
1: Tolerance - If I keep taking a small dose, sublingually, of about 2mg every other (or every third day), will my tolerance still be actively "dropping"?
2: Can you use recreational recreational after taking a regular dose of it? Like, can I take 2mg sublingually and then the next day snort a bunch?

Basically, where I am at now is that I am a Suboxone patient who is on the very end of the program and just realized that Suboxone is an incredibly powerful pain killer that is capable of getting some people really, really high, and I don't want to miss out.

Well to answer your question, yes your tolerance will still keep "dropping" if it already isn't as low as its going to get. If you don't taper further down, then it might stay where it is at the moment. If you do keep tapering down, then it should keep going down.

You can take your medicine regularly (a normal dose sublingually) after snorting it, for example. It may not be "as effective" as it otherwise would be, but you shouldn't be in painful WD because you decided to snort Suboxone for one day.

For example I IV buprenorphine and sometimes I have to use my medicine sublingually. If I have to do this, 2mg can still last me a whole day. I get the feeling like I want to take more Suboxone after a few hours but I can keep going w/o actually doing so.

"Getting high on Suboxone" is most certainly possible with sublingual dosing - check out this thread: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=404947

The thread is 6/7's method for getting a higher BA with sublingual Suboxone. I think for you this will be the most efficient way to get high with Suboxone - take your normal sublingual dose of Suboxone, but with high proof alcohol under your tongue as well. It should dissolve more quickly, and more buprenorphine will get across the membrane.

This way the duration is still long.

I hope this answered your question, please let me know via the thread here or PM (whichever you would like) if you have any more questions. Hopefully this cleared up some things for you, because when I first joined the site here I had all the same questions you do.

 

[Mystery Brew]

I can switch from bupe to another opiate to bupe again within half a day, or less (I have never had precipitated WD). The half life technically stays the same (I have been told - I forgot who told me that though) but the duration of the drug's effect is that short.

whats the difference between duration and half life?

lets say you ived the same amount as sublingual. with the half life the same and the duration of effect is shorter. would that mean you get sick alot earlier when iv vs sublingual? or since the half life is technically the same does that mean you get sick at the same time?

 

[fistful_of_needles]

The "best" maintenance dose is the lowest amount that alleviates withdrawals and cravings, and that dose can change with time in treatment. I always wonder "why?" when I read about those who try tapering down so they can get high.

For those of us who suffered terribly from opiate addiction, then found relief through ORT, feeling normal is a gift, a gift that is, in itself, the whole point of being in ORT. I've done all the tinkering with my dose, cheating on the side with a variety of drugs, but the end is always the same....trouble.

40 units down , 40 to go ... "Sorry mate , say again ?":D

 

[fistful_of_needles]

hahaha , I'm just waiting for that day I log on and read a post by Cap_Heroin somewhere along these lines "Look dude , Fuck your half life and your duration and while at it screw your Sub doc too, just take 2 fucking mgs or whatever you FEEL works for you and once you FEEL like you need more just redose as needed , all lab tested and scientifically proven"

 

[IndustrialStrength]

^^ I gotta say that literally made me LOL. Thanks fist it's been a long day and for some reason I find your idea hysterical

Captain H does a lot of good around here, but the idea of him raging out is quite amusing.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

whats the difference between duration and half life?

lets say you ived the same amount as sublingual. with the half life the same and the duration of effect is shorter. would that mean you get sick alot earlier when iv vs sublingual? or since the half life is technically the same does that mean you get sick at the same time?

Duration - how long the drug's effect is
Half life - how long it takes your body to metabolize half of the drug introduced into your system

What would you be getting sick from? I'm not sure what your question is asking to be honest.

 

[IndustrialStrength]

I'm not Mystery Brew, so I can't explain his thought process, but imho I'm guessing by sick he means w/d's. At least that's what I believe he's asking.

 

[Mystery Brew]

^ yup. by sick I mean w/ding

so from your definition CH. a drug sometimes can or cannot be in effect but still be metabolizing in your system?

i was just under the impression if its still metabolizing in your system that its still in effect. but I guess the effect can be long gone and still be metabolizing?

 

[Oxymorphone]

Duration - how long the drug's effect is
Half life - how long it takes your body to metabolize half of the drug introduced into your system

What would you be getting sick from? I'm not sure what your question is asking to be honest.

Now what is the relation between half life and duration? Let's say you are using a method with a short duration (IV) but the drug is still being metabolized by your system. Even though you don't feel the drug will you still have to wait for the drug level to lower in your system before feeling the full effects from dosing up again?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

so from your definition CH. a drug sometimes can or cannot be in effect but still be metabolizing in your system?

i was just under the impression if its still metabolizing in your system that its still in effect. but I guess the effect can be long gone and still be metabolizing?

Yes, that is true. A good example is crack/cocaine. What a short effect, right? Well, there's a reason you can find the metabolites of it in your urine up to a week after a single use, even though that single use stopped effecting you after 5 minutes, or 20 minutes, or 1 hour of duration.

Another example is methadone, you may not be feeling it anymore, but it's still in your system for a while (hence why people go on a short acting opiate in between the methadone to Suboxone change, to hold you over while the methadone is fully metabolized from your system).

As for being in WD, yes it happens a lot earlier when IVing versus sublingual. However it's not necessarily that way. I find the effect of Suboxone lasts about 4 hours when IV'd, but I don't get major WD symptoms until 8-12 hours afterwards. I do feel some WD symptoms at 4 hours but it's not too bad. After 4 hours the "effect" is over but it's still being metabolized out of my system.

If I am to sublingually use Suboxone, I don't get to WD symptoms as early, but I will get to the full WD at the same time as IVing it. It's just that IVing it is a quicker transition to light WD symptoms, and sublingual is a much slower transition to light WD symptoms. If that makes any sense. In the end you're still WDing about as hard as you would anyway (I theorize).

Now what is the relation between half life and duration? Let's say you are using a method with a short duration (IV) but the drug is still being metabolized by your system. Even though you don't feel the drug will you still have to wait for the drug level to lower in your system before feeling the full effects from dosing up again?

You don't have to, the drug level will build up in your system. This gives your body something to build off of when you get a new dose. When I have gone a long time without dosing, the first dose typically won't get me to where I'm used to feeling. By repetitively dosing, the amount lingering in my system puts any one dose I take into a region where it's effective for me.

The same thing happens with sublingual dosing.

 

[fistful_of_needles]

For some reason I invariably start fiending for H and coke come Christmas ... ever felt like people close to you perceive you as some sort of lesser being cause of your condition? A contemptuous, patronizing kind of pity you can sense behind their "caring&sharing"-"love&kisses" Christmas facade ... dunno,really , just a thought ... hahahah , perhaps it's just this Skinny Puppy "last rights" album depressing the fuck out of me before the Sub kicks in ...

 

[fistful_of_needles]

^^ I gotta say that literally made me LOL. Thanks fist it's been a long day and for some reason I find your idea hysterical

Captain H does a lot of good around here, but the idea of him raging out is quite amusing.

Indeed Industrial ,he definitely does a great job in here whichever way you look at it ,and by doing it from the point of view of an "insider" only makes it the more special. Flattery ... ugh!!

 

[fistful_of_needles]

lol , still ,him openly admitting to IVing Bupre without filtering it horrifies me ... hahha jk ... now the Sub is sinking in for sure


and speaking of Durations and half lifes etc , why the hell is this weed takes that ridiculous amount of time to get off your system when "harder" drugs like H or coke only take the odd 7 days ?

 

[Brose]

For some reason I invariably start fiending for H and coke come Christmas ... ever felt like people close to you perceive you as some sort of lesser being cause of your condition? A contemptuous, patronizing kind of pity you can sense behind their "caring&sharing"-"love&kisses" Christmas facade ... dunno,really , just a thought ... hahahah , perhaps it's just this Skinny Puppy "last rights" album depressing the fuck out of me before the Sub kicks in ...

honestly, this just sounds to me like youre thinking too much, maybe letting low self esteem warp your thoughts... i do it too sometimes. truth is, you never know what someone's REALLY thinking, so just try and appreciate peoples' niceness! that's what i do anyway. %) reading into people can only cause unnecessary trouble IMO.

 

[Oxymorphone]

lol , still ,him openly admitting to IVing Bupre without filtering it horrifies me ... hahha jk ... now the Sub is sinking in for sure


and speaking of Durations and half lifes etc , why the hell is this weed takes that ridiculous amount of time to get off your system when "harder" drugs like H or coke only take the odd 7 days ?

Because weed is evil? I don't know but everyone who has ever had to be drug tested has asked this question and thought the same thing. When you are thinking about using in a program or any situation where you are tested weekly or something and consider using drugs it is counterproductive since you will always avoid weed since it will show up but you know you could do a gram of coke and piss clean 5 days later.

 

[IndustrialStrength]

I wouldn't worry about it to much fist, brose said along the lines of what I was gonna say.
No point trying to read people.

Oh and I wanted to give you props on the Skinny Puppy, glad to see there's some other Bluelighters that listen to Industrial/EBM/Whatever people are calling it these days.

 

[DopeDays]

I am finally down to 1mg suboxone a day. Is it safe to drink? People are saying 2 beers/ 2 glasses of wine at most for peoople on 8mg Suboxone. I know i will drink way more than that, and should be able to now that im down to 1mg right?