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N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet
Stimulants of the Future
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everhopeful
Bluelighter
Refluxer said:
I'm on 2-(diphenylmethyl)piperidine now. Very clean. It's a "creeper" so it can be dangerous as you wait half an our and don't feel a lot, so go again. It starts off very slow and builds up over 3-4 hours. If you take it 10.00 a.m. you'll be ale to sleep that night. Much later and you might have trouble.
First time I took it my enthusiasm overtook my reason and over two hours I took (snorted) 45-50 mg. No feelings of "oh shit" but I didn't sleep for two days.
The 2.5 mg is a bit optimistic, 5-10 is more like it, depending on how you take it of course. For IV (don't myself but have been assured) or snort that dosage is OK, for ingestion 15-25 mg is more like it.
Clarity of thought, no dithering like on amps. You can eat, it is a bit of a chore but again easier than on amps. Not much "spare" locomotor activity. Pulse stronger but not much increased rate.
Wow, I thought people were only taking the tertiary hydroxy derivative of the aforementioned compound.
This stuff is basically like ritalin XR?
I've seen phenyl swap for esters in a number of compounds; eg. phenyltropanes, meperidine, even carfentanil (although 4-phenyl-F is still shortacting despite being crazy potent; likely a consequence of the vast steric bulk around the 4 position).
Even though this is not new, if a blast-from-the-past resurfaces, I still think it is still relevant to this discussion. Like when Shulgin popularised MDMA which was first made 1/2 century earlier, it paved the way for future generations and helped to depolarise the black/white policies regarding drugs in general.
This stuff is basically like ritalin XR?
I've seen phenyl swap for esters in a number of compounds; eg. phenyltropanes, meperidine, even carfentanil (although 4-phenyl-F is still shortacting despite being crazy potent; likely a consequence of the vast steric bulk around the 4 position).
Even though this is not new, if a blast-from-the-past resurfaces, I still think it is still relevant to this discussion. Like when Shulgin popularised MDMA which was first made 1/2 century earlier, it paved the way for future generations and helped to depolarise the black/white policies regarding drugs in general.
everhopeful
Bluelighter
Smyth said:
Whoa up there Tonto, I'm not as fast as you, no chemistry. The only mention of this "ancient" stim on this site was from those who had heard but not tried, so I was trying to "fill in the gaps" for a few.
Going back to the no chemistry, could you spell out some of those "short acting.....crazy potent" stims for a dummy please?
Refluxer
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2006
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- 362
Everhopeful: If you ask me, you are most welcome to fill in the gaps on all the unusual stims you have tried. :D
Have you, for example, tried the cocaine analog made from arecoline and Chloro- bromobenzene? I'm very interested in hearing reports on that series of coumpunds, and also the WIN-series.
Have you, for example, tried the cocaine analog made from arecoline and Chloro- bromobenzene? I'm very interested in hearing reports on that series of coumpunds, and also the WIN-series.
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
^ I'll second that as I've heard no reports of 2-(diphenylmethyl)piperidine or 2-(diphenylmethyl)pyrrolidine in humans, just reats. As such, any human data is appreciated (esp if anybody has experience of the most potent of the series - 3-(diphenylmethyl)morpholine), as it would be for compounds such as 2-benzylpiperidine or 2-benzoylpiperidine (benzyl 2-piperidyl ketone - the heterocyclic equivalent - in terms of carbon sidechain length - to the valerophenones such as MDPV). Actually, when it comes down to it, any compound mentioned in this thread that has little or no human data.
everhopeful
Bluelighter
Refluxer said:
fastandbulbous said:
Thanks for the welcome. Just so you know the motivation, a lot of my friends work in the mining or engineering industries and and were getting piss tested more and more. Couple this with the upcoming (where I live anyway) saliva testers (for thc, mdma, pcp, meth and amps) in every police car sometime next year and it became obvious we were going to become either jailbirds or monks!
We decided we would set out to find legal replacements for grass, speed and e's. The only "rule" was it had to be legal and it had to have an honest/similar hit to it's "parent". Ambitious I hear you say! Well yes you were dead right.
6 months later and we have settled on;
a mix of cpp and meopp (30 mg:70 mg) as an e clone (before I hear the critics chorus of "I could feed that pitiful amount to me Granny" there has been lots of testing using a wide spread of ages, sex, poly users, empty/full stomach, situation etc as we had to get a mix that suited "eveyone". If you want it tougher, double-dip.
I you want something "trippier" swap the meopp for 20 mg of pfpp.
While these work well as bzp and tfmpp had been sceduled in a few places (yes where I live too) we figured it would'nt be too long before these 'zines too were listed. Arguably under "analog" or in our case "substituted compounds" laws the two mentioned probably wouldn't make it.
So what we were experimenting with as a smoke became the focus for e replacement, Kanna. This is a stimulants thread so I won't go into the smoke side of things but Kanna (sceletium tortuosum) had come up trumps depending on how it's prepared and paired with so we got some pure mesembrine (Kanna's main active alkaloid) and have started to look at this a the e clone.
The only drama with stright mesembrine is that it is all head and no body, OK for some but we wanted it to have some "legs" as well. Tha's where the speed search came in handy. We are about to (this weekend) try mesembrine and 2-DPMP to see how this combo works. I will let you know if your interested?
So as you can see we're not really wayward lab-rats there is method to the madness. What I would really love from someone here is an educated guess for a stim that has a mix of cns AND pns activity? We're basic folk and need that bit of feedback via the pns.
Any and all suggestions gratefully received.
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
If you want peripheral effects, forget most or the diphenylpiperidines/pyrrolidines/morpholines as they are reuptake inhibitors with very little but central effects. For a bit of 'jangle', my money would be on 2-phenyl-3,6-dimethylmorpholine. It's a derivative of phenmetrazine that essentially has a similar dose & all the properties of that drug, but isn't specifically named in any drug laws as far as I'm aware.
As well as that, you could always try some of the alpha-alkyl-beta-keto substituted phenethylamines; a resonably good set of substance I've been informed by a friend are the N-substituted alpha-amino butyrophenones. These are not pure dopamine reuptake inhibitors (as a 5 carbon side chain disposes them towards), nor are they as rough as the equivalent propiophenones (3 carbon side chains eg methcathinone, diethylpropion). Best of the bunch are probably 2-(methylamino)butyrophenone and 2-(1-pyrrolidino)butyrophenone.
As this is an unusual request (people generally want less pns activity while retaining cns activity), give me a bit of time & I'll have a rummage through my old notes & see if there's something more suitable. I'd have suggested N-propylamphetamine as it's about 2/3rds the potency of amphet, a bit like a watered down (and as such safer) meth & uncontrolled, but amphetamine is one of the metabolites and would give unmistakable positives for amphetamine use
As well as that, you could always try some of the alpha-alkyl-beta-keto substituted phenethylamines; a resonably good set of substance I've been informed by a friend are the N-substituted alpha-amino butyrophenones. These are not pure dopamine reuptake inhibitors (as a 5 carbon side chain disposes them towards), nor are they as rough as the equivalent propiophenones (3 carbon side chains eg methcathinone, diethylpropion). Best of the bunch are probably 2-(methylamino)butyrophenone and 2-(1-pyrrolidino)butyrophenone.
As this is an unusual request (people generally want less pns activity while retaining cns activity), give me a bit of time & I'll have a rummage through my old notes & see if there's something more suitable. I'd have suggested N-propylamphetamine as it's about 2/3rds the potency of amphet, a bit like a watered down (and as such safer) meth & uncontrolled, but amphetamine is one of the metabolites and would give unmistakable positives for amphetamine use
probably already been posted, but CFT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(-)-2-ß-Carbomethoxy-3-ß-(4-fluorophenyl)tropane_naphthalenedisulfonate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(-)-2-ß-Carbomethoxy-3-ß-(4-fluorophenyl)tropane_naphthalenedisulfonate
mad_scientist
Bluelighter
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CFT looks attractive as a novel stimulant due to its activity profile, ie similar to cocaine but longer lasting, and in one study i've seen the lab monkeys actually preferred it to cocaine (it didn't just substitute, they actually would take the CFT rather than the cocaine when both were available)
Never heard of human trials though, and i would imagine that with two chiral centres which both need to be the correct enantiomer in order to work properly, the synthesis would be too complicated to be viable for most clandestine chemists.
Although mind you, its not actually that complex a synthesis if you just didn't care about what isomer you made, and i suppose a racemic mix would still contain 25% of the strong isomer anyway which would certainly be strong enough that it would sell successfully...
Never heard of human trials though, and i would imagine that with two chiral centres which both need to be the correct enantiomer in order to work properly, the synthesis would be too complicated to be viable for most clandestine chemists.
Although mind you, its not actually that complex a synthesis if you just didn't care about what isomer you made, and i suppose a racemic mix would still contain 25% of the strong isomer anyway which would certainly be strong enough that it would sell successfully...
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
^ Because the optical properties are also linked in with the slightly strained bicyclic structure, it's more likely that one or two isomers will predominate because of things like steric considerations etc (reduction of tropinone does not lead to an equal mixture of tropine & pseudotropine, but depending upon reducing agent used produces predominantly one isomer or the other).
I can see a theoretical route to it, without any real complications, from tropine/tropinone so I'd imagine any competant organic chemist should be able to see one or more as well (including reaction details etc. which I'm very rusty with). Quite surprised that it hasn't actually appeared & been available considering dopaminergics seems to be the next biggest target after psychedelics for 'commercial' labs
I can see a theoretical route to it, without any real complications, from tropine/tropinone so I'd imagine any competant organic chemist should be able to see one or more as well (including reaction details etc. which I'm very rusty with). Quite surprised that it hasn't actually appeared & been available considering dopaminergics seems to be the next biggest target after psychedelics for 'commercial' labs
everhopeful
Bluelighter
Refluxer said:
I'm sorry you'll have to spell it out for me with the "analog made from arecoline and Chlorobromobenzine", structure, cas etc
Have tried what I was told was a coc sub once, and figured when you have to strain to notice what your getting, it's actually nothing! I was told it was tropocaine, which as I understand it is a local! As are all the rest present in commercial coc.http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/clandestine.drug.synthesis.html#cocaine
I had read/heard somewhere that the WIN's (or some at least) were considered great for treating those evil cocaine addicts because it saited their desire but gave no stimulation?
I've had an idea for a novel application of tropinone. Some real life chemical researchers have stepped on this idea in recent years although they haven't pin-pointed the exact same structure as I. Infact I have even discussed a written draft of my idea with a senior lecturer over coffee, who has studies opioid chemistry his entire career, and he agreed that my idea was a realistic project proposal (getting funding is the tricky part).
But, on the topic of tropacocaine, im convinced that the IC50 values dont stack-up for it to be an economical choice of stimulant, if active at all (not including local anesthetic activity).
Cocaine DAT = 89nM
Tropacocaine DAT =5180nM
But, on the topic of tropacocaine, im convinced that the IC50 values dont stack-up for it to be an economical choice of stimulant, if active at all (not including local anesthetic activity).
Cocaine DAT = 89nM
Tropacocaine DAT =5180nM
Dr.Heckyll
Bluelighter
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fastandbulbous said:
You would have a hard time making it from tropine/tropinone, because the carboxy group is missing and needs to be attached first. It can be done, but then you get a stereoisomeric mess. Proper labs make it from ecgonine, which is debenzoylated cocaine. So if one had cocaine available, it would be a doable thing.
Apparently, the chemistry of cocaine => CFT is beyond the ability of underground chemists. Else it would be the perfect plan: conservatively, 1kg of cocaine gives 100g of CFT, which has the potency of 4kg cocaine. So you get 4 x more doses, and the shipping volume drops by a factor of 40 making trafficing much easier.
SWIM should explain that to some columbian drug lords.
p-Chloro is quite a bit more potent than p-fluoro and also confers greater DAT selectivity. I'm not qualitatively saying either is better (because ive tried neither), but if one subscribes to the DAT hypothesis and the more bang for the buck philosophy, then surely RTI-31 takes pole-position from WIN-35,428?
Also I know coke addicts judge the quality of their drug by how much it numbs their face. This can be easily remedied though (no need to spell it out). Also, a point worth mentioning is that phenyl-tropanes are reported to last maybe 4 x as long as coke [Perspective 2003].
Also I know coke addicts judge the quality of their drug by how much it numbs their face. This can be easily remedied though (no need to spell it out). Also, a point worth mentioning is that phenyl-tropanes are reported to last maybe 4 x as long as coke [Perspective 2003].
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
They've got more coke than they know what to do with, so they'd have little interest in a cocaine analogue (in fact they'd actively supress it outside s. America). If demand outstripped supply, then they might, but not with the current situation
everhopeful
Bluelighter
Any particular reason there is no mention of piperazines here? As I understand it they are a bit of a chemists dream of a family as far as "dial up what you want" goes. They go from motion sickness pills to viagra commercially and there are at least half a dozen available which give effects from body/speedy through to visuals/trippy. I just wondered if anyone with sort of chemical knowledge some of you guys posses had looked at them?
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