Steroids slowly killing the gym-obsessed youth

_DankOpiAmp_ said:
Are you the type of person that believes in nothing based on philosophical grounds
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You got me there.

Are you the type of person who gets overly defensive when someone questions or disagrees with your strongly held views, or can you use this opportunity to enlighten myself and others?

I'm not winding you up - I'm genuinely curious and if I've been misled about steroids being dangerous/unhealthy, I'd be keen to know why - not just be given some line about "perfect health".
Last I heard, Keith Richards and Iggy Pop were in "perfect health"; y'know - they looked it, for their respective ages.

What I'm trying to do in this discussion is get the people making bold claims about the safety of something to give me a little something more to go on.
YouTube links don't really cut it as far as supporting evidence goes. A bit like offering a Wikipedia entry to back up what you're saying; it's a good quick source of information, but not something most people take too seriously.

From a harm reduction point of view, it's like someone saying that William Burroughs lived to the age of 83 as a longterm opiate addict, therefore "heroin never killed anyone, it's only when you take other drugs with it that you risk your life."

My curiosity is based on the assertions that this is a safe practice and the fact that I don't know anyone that engages in it.
As for investigating things for myself - that may not have been directed at me - but where do you go to get unbiased information on this kind of thing?
The side effects I've read about sound unhealthy (but hey - I'm no doctor), the impact on people's mental health seems detrimental (please correct me if I'm wrong) and the benefits of healthy, able-bodied humans using steroids and/or growth hormones for "bodybuilding" cosmetic purposes has always come across (to someone with no exposure to that culture) as an unnecessary risk to mind and body.
Short of evidence to the contrary, this continues to be my not-so-well-informed opinion.
 
.:Holy::Toast:. said:
I really dislike the hyper masculine obsession in society.
These people don't feel good about themselves unless they are 90% muscle, it's nothing more than a narcissistic personality disorder.
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There really isn't any? Maybe in America but over here in Europe it seems like nobody gives a shit about bodybuilding.
If anything it's the opposite. :\
 
I imagine some cultures are more likely to go for such things than others.

Seems increasingly popular in Australia; more common, at least. Sport and alpha male displays are uh, very well represented in our culture.

This from a Sydney newspaper in January;
Steroids have become the drug of choice for people who start injecting illicit substances, eclipsing methamphetamines and heroin in popularity among young men.
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http://m.smh.com.au/national/health/steroid-use-soars-among-young-men-20140109-30kks.html
 
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spacejunk said:
You got me there.

Are you the type of person who gets overly defensive when someone questions or disagrees with your strongly held views, or can you use this opportunity to enlighten myself and others?

I'm not winding you up - I'm genuinely curious and if I've been misled about steroids being dangerous/unhealthy, I'd be keen to know why - not just be given some line about "perfect health".
Last I heard, Keith Richards and Iggy Pop were in "perfect health"; y'know - they looked it, for their respective ages.

What I'm trying to do in this discussion is get the people making bold claims about the safety of something to give me a little something more to go on.
YouTube links don't really cut it as far as supporting evidence goes. A bit like offering a Wikipedia entry to back up what you're saying; it's a good quick source of information, but not something most people take too seriously.

From a harm reduction point of view, it's like someone saying that William Burroughs lived to the age of 83 as a longterm opiate addict, therefore "heroin never killed anyone, it's only when you take other drugs with it that you risk your life."

My curiosity is based on the assertions that this is a safe practice and the fact that I don't know anyone that engages in it.
As for investigating things for myself - that may not have been directed at me - but where do you go to get unbiased information on this kind of thing?
The side effects I've read about sound unhealthy (but hey - I'm no doctor), the impact on people's mental health seems detrimental (please correct me if I'm wrong) and the benefits of healthy, able-bodied humans using steroids and/or growth hormones for "bodybuilding" cosmetic purposes has always come across (to someone with no exposure to that culture) as an unnecessary risk to mind and body.
Short of evidence to the contrary, this continues to be my not-so-well-informed opinion.
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In response to the first paragraph: crankinit made an lazy quip without watching the documentary in an effort to make my argument seems fallacious. If you think that is overly defensive, suck 8----->

If you are over 50 you have likely lost up to half of the testosterone levels you had in your twenties. How in the fuck could restoring these levels have propaganda level side effects? It is literally like the fountain of youth to an extent. Combined with exercise if reverses many symptoms of aging completely.

For those taking it to gain an edge working out it is a bit different. If you cycle enough to prevent your body from becoming dependent on non-endogenous androgens and dose reasonably the side effects are similar to those from entering puberty. It is not as if you are taking something your body doesn't already produce on its own. Some people take 100x their natural level and combine it with all sorts of other enhancers and synthetics; these are the people whose kidneys/livers crystallize (the actually happened, I forget source). Testosterone alone has minimal risks apart from testicular atrophy (or so I've heard) if your body stops producing its own from insufficient cycling. I have also heard of levels returning to normal subsequent to stopping steroids after a period of low testosterone and depression.

Roid rage is stems from an aggressive personality enhanced by testosterone. It only happens in some cases. Propaganda jumps on the idea because it is similar to the "makes you crazy" scare tactic narrative used against other drugs. I heard the depression from coming off steroids is more consistent but I am too lazy to source it now.

Doesn't the fact that the media is referring to it in the same category as recreational drugs make their claims seem suspect to you?
 
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^ everything the media says is suspect to me. That's why I seek information from other sources.
However, information coming from an unreliable source does not automatically make it wrong; it just shows that more evidence is needed.
 
spacejunk said:
^ how do you define or categorise "perfect health"?
I'm not asking this to be a smart arse, I'm curious.

Does mental health come into it? Is the perception that steroids give users irrational mood swings (so called 'roid rage) a myth perpetuated by propaganda?

I ask, because I know nothing of this kind of drug use, and agree that the public are deliberately misinformed about most other kinds of non-medicinal uses of drugs.
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No liver issues. No cardiovascular issues. No kidney issues. No skin issues. Strong immune system. No mental issues that could result in self harm or harmful behavior.

Roid rage is a myth perpetuated by the media. Steroids augment the body but they can also augment personality; If you were a cock before steroids, you will be a bigger cock on them. I know guys on grams upon grams of gear that are 250lb contest weight and they are gentle as a lamb and extremely diplomatic.

However, there are is one steroid that can cause serious aggression and rage, it's Milberone but it's so toxic it isn't used by bodybuilders and is actually used by boxers and MMA fighters for an immediate increase in strength, endurance, and aggression.
 
Crankinit said:
Meaningless. A single case proves nothing either way.
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Meaningless? There are million of people on steroids. Only three die a year from steroids and there is always an underlying health issue or narcotic involved. There are also tons of bodybuilders living healthy lives.
 
spacejunk said:
You got me there.

Are you the type of person who gets overly defensive when someone questions or disagrees with your strongly held views, or can you use this opportunity to enlighten myself and others?

I'm not winding you up - I'm genuinely curious and if I've been misled about steroids being dangerous/unhealthy, I'd be keen to know why - not just be given some line about "perfect health".
Last I heard, Keith Richards and Iggy Pop were in "perfect health"; y'know - they looked it, for their respective ages.

What I'm trying to do in this discussion is get the people making bold claims about the safety of something to give me a little something more to go on.
YouTube links don't really cut it as far as supporting evidence goes. A bit like offering a Wikipedia entry to back up what you're saying; it's a good quick source of information, but not something most people take too seriously.

From a harm reduction point of view, it's like someone saying that William Burroughs lived to the age of 83 as a longterm opiate addict, therefore "heroin never killed anyone, it's only when you take other drugs with it that you risk your life."

My curiosity is based on the assertions that this is a safe practice and the fact that I don't know anyone that engages in it.
As for investigating things for myself - that may not have been directed at me - but where do you go to get unbiased information on this kind of thing?
The side effects I've read about sound unhealthy (but hey - I'm no doctor), the impact on people's mental health seems detrimental (please correct me if I'm wrong) and the benefits of healthy, able-bodied humans using steroids and/or growth hormones for "bodybuilding" cosmetic purposes has always come across (to someone with no exposure to that culture) as an unnecessary risk to mind and body.
Short of evidence to the contrary, this continues to be my not-so-well-informed opinion.
Click to expand...

Watch the documentary Bigger Stronger Faster. It goes into detail about the steroids myth.

A lot of my information comes from a private bodybuilding board I moderate and work for. It has current and former Olympia pros, old bodybuilders, young bodybuilders, and everyone in between. We discuss hormones in great detail, read studies, do research ourselves, test new compounds, look over abstracts, and exchange experiences and knowledge.

Steroids are so safe that the DEA argued against scheduling them. Congress were the ones that scheduled them and it was done due to pressure from big pharma. People were spending $35 for a 10ml vial of Test E dosed at 250mg per milliliter from a private lab instead of paying $60-$80 for the same quality from a major pharmaceutical company. Big Pharma did not like that and they of course are major players in politics as far as campaign donations go so Congress did what they wanted.

Nearly all celebrities and everyone in baseball, football, bodybuilding, "natural" bodybuilding (there is no such thing) and the olympics use hormones. My quality of life has improved with them. I personally think all former opiate addicts should be on Testosterone Replacement Therapy. I wish I had money for rHGH because I would put my father on it so he will stop growing old and I would put my mother on it so she could look younger like she wants without surgery.
 
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Thanks for your detailed reply Guido, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.
These definitions, and informed perspectives were what I was looking for.
Cheers dude.

_DankOpiAmp_ said:
In response to the first paragraph: cranking made an lazy quip without watching the documentary in an effort to make my argument seems fallacious. If you think that is overly defensive, suck 8----->
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Dude, cool it - this is a discussion board, people have differing opinions.
And yeah, you are certainly coming across as overly defensive. If someone disagrees with your point of view, it is nothing to get worked up about.
People have different opinions about things - that's life, buddy.
 
Spellcheck changed "crankinit" to cranking in my post. I will fight against pretentiousness, laziness and ignorance. It is my mission. Suck 8--------->
 
I wish I had money for rHGH because I would put my father on it so he will stop growing old and I would put my mother on it so she could look younger like she wants without surgery.
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And that's when I lost confidence in your post.

There are also tons of bodybuilders living healthy lives.
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Come on, there must be a few more than that?

But seriously, I have no problem with what you are doing, if you think it is safe and you have done your research then fine. I was only being silly. Moderation is hopefully a good idea, as with anything tho.
 
It is a cock of course. Cycling prevents atrophy btw. I don't even use steroids or any enhancers. I'm not gym involved enough I guess. I am just sick of the lies.

Referring to one of the above posts: the old guy on steroids still looked old, he just had muscle mass, physical ability and vitality.
 
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