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Speedball dangers

zorn

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 11, 2001
Messages
5,636
Location
Kansas, USA
I tried a speedball for the first time recently... Yes, a "real" speedball, a full strong bag of heroin and a $5 rock of crack, in the same syring. It was INCREDIBLE. For about half an hour, I couldn't see straight, couldn't stand up, just kept saying "oh god" to myself.... and after that it just felt like incredibly good heroin.
My question is, how and why is this any more dangerous than just using coke or heroin separately? If so, WHY?
I hear a lot of people just claim they're especially dangerous. I don't believe it, UNLESS you're using larger than normal amounts of these substances. So if you have a response, please tell me why you think it... if you have a real reference, even better.
 
Originally posted by zorn:
I tried a speedball for the first time recently... Yes, a "real" speedball, a full strong bag of heroin and a $5 rock of crack, in the same syring. It was INCREDIBLE. For about half an hour, I couldn't see straight, couldn't stand up, just kept saying "oh god" to myself.... and after that it just felt like incredibly good heroin.
My question is, how and why is this any more dangerous than just using coke or heroin separately? If so, WHY?
I hear a lot of people just claim they're especially dangerous. I don't believe it, UNLESS you're using larger than normal amounts of these substances. So if you have a response, please tell me why you think it... if you have a real reference, even better.

They are dangerous together because combining an upper and a downer creates a synergistic reaction where the effects of each are multiplied. This puts a strain on your heart, liver, etc.
Most people make speedballs with regular coke, not rock, by the way.
Oh, as for references, try: Belushi, J. (1982) or Staley, L. (2002).
 
Originally posted by zorn:
I tried a speedball for the first time recently... Yes, a "real" speedball, a full strong bag of heroin and a $5 rock of crack, in the same syring. It was INCREDIBLE. For about half an hour, I couldn't see straight, couldn't stand up, just kept saying "oh god" to myself.... and after that it just felt like incredibly good heroin.
My question is, how and why is this any more dangerous than just using coke or heroin separately? If so, WHY?
I hear a lot of people just claim they're especially dangerous. I don't believe it, UNLESS you're using larger than normal amounts of these substances. So if you have a response, please tell me why you think it... if you have a real reference, even better.

Sorry if this reply is received twice, I think the first didn't go through.
Combining an upper and a downer creates a synergistic effect whereby the effects of each are multiplied. This puts a great strain on the heart, liver, kidneys, etc.
As for references, look up: Belushi, J. (1982) or Staley, L. (2002) for what happens when people get reckless with these. I believe but could be mistaken that Farley might be an example as well.
 
Originally posted by JerryBlunted:

As for references, look up: Belushi, J. (1982) or Staley, L. (2002) for what happens when people get reckless with these. I believe but could be mistaken that Farley might be an example as well.

anecdotal at BEST... I've read some other sources- I'll try to dig them up, that says plainly, there is not such thing as this synergistic relationship as far as taxing the body. I can't see the mechanism for it... I think the deaths are just plain old ods... not to mention farley and belushi were fat bastards with (most likely) weak hearts. Anyone have more definitive information?
doc
 
The main danger comes from the opiate and stimulant sending conflicting messages to your heart and lungs. Heroin says "slow down," coke says "speed up," and sometimes your system gets confused and just shuts down. This isn't as likely at lower doses, but be careful--this is one of (if not the) most dangerous drug combinations.
 
Yeah, lots of famous people die from speedballs. Maybe this is because speedballs are especially lethal. Or maybe it's just because they're really GOOD so lots of famous self-destructive people choose to do them.
Conflicting messages? Sounds like BS... I hear this all over the place, but I want details or referenced information.
I would think heroin by blunting the cardiovascular effects of the coke, would make it SAFER for you. In fact, this is the only way I can see speedballs being more 'dangerous' -- people do way more of either combined than they would do alone.
 
"Recent studies by Foltin, Fischman and colleagues and by Walsh and colleagues have evaluated the acute subjective and physiological effects of cocaine in combination with opioid mu agonists. The subjective effects of various dose combinations of mu agonists and cocaine were greater than those produced by either drug alone on measures such as "drug liking" and "high". The qualitative profile of subjective effects produced by the opioid/cocaine combination was roughly equivalent to the sum of effects produced by the two drugs singly, rather than producing novel or unique subjective effects. The cardiovascular effects of cocaine, including tachycardia and pressor action, were enhanced when cocaine was administered in the presence of the mu agonist. Other studies have compared the effects of cocaine in opioid-dependent subjects during chronic maintenance on mu opioid agonists. In studies of methodone-maintained patients, the subjective response to cocaine (e.g., "magnitude of drug effect", "good effect") was significantly greater compared to control subjects. Similarly, some studies in buprenorphine-maintained patients reported that the subjective response to cocaine was either enhanced or not appreciably altered compared to a control condition. Enhanced cardiovascular responses to cocaine were also observed under these chronic opioid dosing conditions. These and other findings suggest that administration of mu agonists generally enhances the effects of cocaine in humans, particularly the positive subjective responses to cocaine."
http://opioids.com/speedballs/index.html
What they seem to conclude is that any mu agonist increases the cardiovascular effects of cocaine. I imagine that since the cocaine is potentiated, people who die from a speedball probably injected what is normally a good dose by itself and it turned out to be a cocaine od. If you read the whole article, they suggest a possible interaction between the opiod peptide system and dopamine (DA) levels in the nucleus accumbens (NA). Apparently, cocaine by itself has a positive effect on the opiod peptide system and heroin has an effect on DA levels in the NA.
"In the present study, we examined the effect of an acute administration of the selective suicide inhibitor of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)-transaminase, gamma-vinyl GABA on increases in nucleus accumbens dopamine produced by a cocaine/heroin challenge in freely moving animals. Cocaine (20 mg/kg, i.p.) produced an elevation in extracellular nucleus accumbens dopamine of approximately 380% above baseline, while heroin produced only a moderate increase of 70%. Coadministration of these two drugs, however, produced a synergistic elevation in nucleus accumbens dopamine of 1000%. This response was reduced by 50% in animals pretreated with gamma-vinyl GABA (300 mg/kg, i.p.) 2.5 h prior to challenge. This same dose of gamma-vinyl GABA inhibited cocaine-induced increases in nucleus accumbens dopamine by 25% and completely abolished heroin-induced increase. These findings indicate that gamma-vinyl GABA can interfere with the synergistic effects produced by the combination of an indirect dopamine releaser (heroin) and a dopamine reuptake blocker (cocaine)."
Gamma-vinyl gamma-aminobutyric acid attenuates the synergistic elevations of nucleus accumbens dopamine produced by a cocaine/heroin(speedball) challenge, Gerasimov MR, Dewey SL, Department of Chemistry, Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973, USA. Eur J Pharmacol 1999 Sep 3;380(1):1-4
It is probably this huge increase in dopamine levels that increases the morbidity associated with speedballs. I would think that the amount of each drug used is the most important factor. Obviously, a much smaller amount of each will do. It's true that the two drugs blunt some of each other's effects, but mainly its just for the subjective effects (less anxiety, nervousness, shitty comedown from the coke, more awake than usual from the heroin).
"The use of MAO inhibitors or tricyclic antidepressants with hydrocodone preparations may increase the effect of either the antidepressant or hydrocodone."
http://www.erowid.org/pharms/hydrocodone/hydrocodone_health.shtml
I wonder if anyone has ever combined different opiates and maoi's (besides cocaine, which is basically an maoi) to see if you get a better high. If so, this would help verify the above studies' findings.
 
The whole speedball thing is getting infamous again with the recent death of Layne Staley from Alice in Chains.
I haven't done an "official speedball", but I have snorted cocaine, followed by a bag of heroin, but that's kind've a pussy speedball, but it felt good nonetheless.
 
Thanks, Abra. That was exactly what I was looking for. I wouldn't suppose it was the DA increase alone -- that's prob resposible for the intense pleasure from it -- but rather the increase in cardio effects, which I'm not sure are that related.
I wonder how effective beta-blockers would be in attentuation many of the dangers of a speedball. In theory, they should vastly attenuate the risk of cocaine overdose by blocking many of it's cardio effects. These seemed to be the case in a single personal trial.
 
I have never actually tried a speedball YET! But, I do tend to snort both substances together. Just by snorting them together the feeling I get ...DAMN!...I can only imagine... I think that is why I will hold off on the speedball for awhile!
 
Originally posted by themagicbean:
The main danger comes from the opiate and stimulant sending conflicting messages to your heart and lungs. Heroin says "slow down," coke says "speed up," and sometimes your system gets confused and just shuts down. This isn't as likely at lower doses, but be careful--this is one of (if not the) most dangerous drug combinations.
I don't have the extensive scientific reference like Abra (which was pretty interesting) but I've heard one of the dangers is cocaine increasing the heartrate + heroin depressing breathing. More blood being pumped with less oxygen. I don't know if this true or not.
 
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic102.htm
"Strong evidence supports avoidance of nonselective beta-blockers for cocaine-induced ischemia. Echocardiographic studies suggest that the antihypertensive effect of propranolol results from depression of cardiac output, rather than relief of systemic vascular resistance. Propranolol exacerbates the depression of coronary blood flow induced by cocaine because of unopposed alpha stimulation following beta-blockade. Finally, just before fatality, cocaine toxicity usually results in hypotension, a condition that would be compounded further by use of a beta-blocker.
Malbrain et al note that esmolol has been recommended for "save use" in managing life-threatening hypertension and tachycardia. Esmolol is a selective beta1-adrenergic blocker with rapid onset and short duration of action (elimination half-life is 9 min). They advise that the coadministration of esmolol and sodium nitroprusside should be reserved for severe hypertension that is unresponsive to other treatment and/or is complicated by aortic dissection.
Guidelines 2000 discusses use of carefully titrated doses of labetalol as a third-line agent in treating drug-induced hypertensive emergencies. Labetalol, a combined alpha- and beta-blocking agent, is, however, predominantly a beta-blocker and has an alpha-to-beta blockade ratio of 1:7. It may not, therefore, provide enough protection for cocaine-toxic patients from (relatively) unopposed alpha stimulation. Thus, its risk of exacerbating myocardial ischemia parallels the risk of beta-blockers. In addition, labetalol has been found to increase seizures and mortality in animal models; therefore its use cannot, at present, be promoted."
Sounds like beta blockers would do more harm than good regardless of whether or not you are experiencing toxic effects from the cocaine.
"Drugs that increase intrasynaptic dopamine produce changes in the density and sensitivity of dopamine receptors; they have different effects on different receptor subtypes in different areas of the brain (Ruttenber et al, 1997). Excited delirium (ED), cocaine-associated rhabdomyolysis (CAR), and neuroleptic malignant syndrome (NMS) share many common features that can be explained by aberrant dopaminergic function (discussed below).
Long-term cocaine use, rather than short-term use, is responsible for persistent changes in dopaminergic function that place users at risk for ED [excited delirium] and CAR [cocaine associated rhabdomyolysis]. Elevations in muscle enzyme levels are observed in asymptomatic chronic cocaine users and in untreated persons with schizophrenia; this evidence lends support to the hypothesis that chronic alterations in dopaminergic function can affect skeletal muscle physiology.
Temperature dysregulation is also a problem, which is demonstrated by Calloway and Clark who report patients presenting with rectal temperatures as high as 45.6C. Because dopamine plays a role in the regulation of core body temperature, increased dopaminergic neurotransmission may contribute to psychostimulant-induced hyperthermia in people, including those with ED.
D2 receptors are involved with processes that decrease core temperature. The number of D2 receptors in the temperature regulatory centers of the hypothalamus is substantially reduced in persons with ED. These decreases in D2 receptors lead to unopposed increases in temperature mediated through D1 receptors, which are not affected in individuals who die of ED.
In animal studies, hyperthermia has been found to be the most significant parameter in the lethality of continuous cocaine infusion.
Agitated delirium, also known as excited delirium (ED), is a common presentation in patients dying of cocaine toxicity. Of cocaine-associated deaths investigated by the Metropolitan Dade County (FL) Medical Examiner Department between 1979 and 1990, ED was the terminal event in approximately 1 out of every 6 fatalities. Patients with ED exhibited immediate onset of bizarre and violent behavior, which included aggression, combativeness, hyperactivity, hyperthermia, extreme paranoia, unexpected strength, and/or incoherent shouting. All of these were followed by cardiorespiratory arrest.
Although heart weight, ventricular hypertrophy, and past MI are not risk factors, repeated binges of cocaine use are associated with fatal ED. The frequency of use that increases risk, however, has not been determined. Individuals with ED may be more sensitive to the life-threatening effects of catecholamine surges than other cocaine users. ED appears to be generated by increased intrasynaptic dopamine concentrations resulting from a defect in the regulation of the dopamine transporter. When compared to drug-free controls, cocaine recognition sites on the striatal dopamine transporter are increased in cocaine users without ED. Persons dying of ED have no such increase; thus, they may have problems clearing dopamine from the synapses, a condition that easily could result in agitation and delirium.
Hyperthermia, which also may be caused by dopamine receptor down-regulation, increases the incidence of fatal ED."
I agree that dopamine doesn't have the same magnitude of cardiovascular effects as epinephrine (although it has some pressor effects independent of its metabolism into norepinephrine). But its possible that many of the fatalities from cocaine aren't caused solely by its cardiovascular effects. Also, the author from above mentions an association between frequency of use and severity of toxic effects. I would think that people like Chris Farley probably didn't die the first time they took a speedball. It was probably at the end of a long binge and there is no telling how long he had been using coke/heroin in the months before he died.
 
Originally posted by AbraMontague:
I would think that people like Chris Farley probably didn't die the first time they took a speedball. It was probably at the end of a long binge and there is no telling how long he had been using coke/heroin in the months before he died.
I'm not here to tell anyone not to do anything, its all a matter of personal choice. And I agree a speedball here and there probably won't kill you, HOWEVER, whenever you combine drugs you are upping the dangers from taking them because drugs can and do have strange reactions when combined. In terms of an overdose or other emergency, having a multitude of drugs in the system makes it more difficult to effectively treat the problem.
My point is use caution when dealing with stuff like this. You can be taking your life in your own hands, which is your right, but try and be careful and sensible.
 
River Phoenix died from a speedball too in 93. He wasn't fat or anything, He went into convulsions out the front of the viper room and then carked it :(
Lest we forget TISM wrote a song about speedballs called "he'll never be an old man river".
Never tried em meself. I've shot heroin and speed within a short space of time and spent 2 days puking up stomach lining though, that sucked! > :(
 
Originally posted by AbraMontague:
"Recent studies by Foltin, Fischman and colleagues and by Walsh and colleagues have evaluated the acute subjective and physiological effects of cocaine in combination with opioid mu agonists".
According to Foltin and Fischman "...the self-administration of combinations of COC [cocaine] and MOR [morphine] does not produce significantly greater oxygen demand than the self-administration COC alone. Recently, reports of adverse cardiovascular sequela after i.v. and intranasal cocaine use have increased dramatically [references omited]. To the extent that cardiovascular toxicity after COC is related to increased oxygen demand and decreased supply, adding MOR to COC does not increase the possibility of toxicity (at least in the dose range tested)".
From:
Foltin RW, Fischman MW.
The cardiovascular and subjective effects of intravenous cocaine and morphine
combinations in humans.
J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1992 May;261(2):623-32.
 
Neither Foltin & Fishman nor Walsh et al (JPET 279:524) found morphine/hydromorphone potentiated any of cocaine's physiogical effects or vice versa, and I didn't find much else on the subject.
So I'm going to tentatively conclude that the speedball combination is no more dangerous than the sum of its parts. However the presence of both drugs could certainly blunt your estimation of dosages, leading you to do more coke and have a toxic recation, or to do too much of the opioid, causing you to OD when the stimulant wears off.
 
Speedballs are not bad because they send "conflicting messages" to your body. A lot of people take drugs that DO send conflicting messages, and it usually works out fine. For example, taking beta blockers with adderall will not kill you, but it will keep your heart rate down.
There are two reasons (I think) that speedballs can be dangerous. The first reason applies to all stimulants, and the second just to cocaine.
1. When you take a stimulant, your oxygen demand increases in most cells in your body. In particular, your brain cells need more oxygen, and so does your heart (becuase it is pumping faster). Opiates do not significantly affect the cardiovascular system. They do, however, slow respiration. Thus, you have a stimulant-induced increased demand for oxygen, and an opiate-induced decrease in available oxygen. This can be dangerous.
2. Cocaine is not just a stimulant, it is also a general anesthetic that in high doses can put you in a coma much like a high dose of an opiate. When combined with an opiate, the anesthetic properties of cocaine synergize with the anesthetic properties of the opiate resulting in hypoventilation (like in 1. above), and coma.
 
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