Skydancer -- A Democratic Bluelight *see first post for link to Skydancer's response*

Roger&Me i now have it and have saved it. 'tis a reasonable proposal but i would be inclined to await SD's approval of some sort of "democratic" BL before posting it ---- but same is up to you.
 
xtcxtc said:
Roger&Me i now have it and have saved it. 'tis a reasonable proposal but i would be inclined to await SD's approval of some sort of "democratic" BL before posting it ---- but same is up to you.
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Yah, probably the best idea. I don't think that this thread would be the best place to post it as it's too long. Thank you for taking your time to read it.:)
 
*bookmarked - I've read up to here.

A few short comments at this time, without a formal proposal or set of plans:
1) Sr. Admins read of the site what they choose, and chances are the threads addressing these issues are being read but not commented on. The actual level of Sr. Admin awareness and concern is something only known by those two individuals.

2) Admins *are* very aware, and are reading these threads, but still trying to work out ideas on how to improve the situation. Again, this is to say that *all* suggestions here are being read and thought about, but none of us are willing to step forward until we have a consensus decision. This is, perhaps, my way of saying that the "people's voices" are being heard.

3) Well, I'll shutup with this thought - evolution is inevitable in all situations. We can't predict influencing factors or final outcomes, but we can work to guide that evolution in whichever way is best for the site - keeping individual egos and desires seconded behind what is best for the site. That's what those of you involved in this discussion are doing, and it is appreciated. That's what those of us in "Admin" positions are trying to do.

*End bookmark - I need to read from here forward and summarize for myself the ideas already put forth.
 
I don't see a problem with Bluelight except for a people wanting an over-throw for what reason I cant clearly see, what exactly is wrong with BL? I never encounter anything that I would consider problematic but I stay as far away from the core group of people that dilly-dally in BL gossip or seem to be constantly complaining?

Whats so wrong? A forum doesn't want a split and its not a democratic vote they don't get there voices heard? Than xtcxtc who has donated cashish (which I thank you for sir') basically supports the site and he wants a say in what goes down, obviously if BL is indebted to him he should have a say. Personally I don't get what the big hoop-la is all about everything is running smoothly from my view and thats how I like to keep it.

I suppose evolution is inevitable at times and that is what it boils down to correct...?

Or is Catch-22 ahh I give up, just please keep the site running.
 
^^ you obviously didn't read the entire thread. many people have articulated, much better than i ever could, the specific reasons why there is a problem with the current administration. most of these bluelighters are former mods and admins who have dedicated years of their lives to this site (for which i'm quite grateful) and don't want to see that all wasted. it's hardly gossip or whining, so much as genuine concerns.

i've stayed out of this thread due to everything i could ever say being articulated already by many others, but i'd like to add my name to the (black)list of people who care about BL enough to demand that changes be made. No one person should have this level of control, whether this be viewed as a "business" (which it's not), a "non-profit organization" or "just a messageboard" (which it once was, but at it's current size thats a bit of an understatement.)

i'm not going to say one form of organization is better than another, thats what those of you with previous/current mod/admin experience are for. your .02 are greatly needed right now. all i know is, something has to be done here. we can't go on with catch-22 ruling with such reckless disregard for absolutely everyone else on Bluelight, from the Benefactor to Admins, Mods and us plebian BLers. Bluelight.nu has been an important part of my life since 2000, it's led to many truly amazing friendships on and offline that I know will be with me for the rest of my life. But for a long time now, I've been left with a bad taste in my mouth after every visit to this site. Alot of the people who know how amazing this community used to be, who helped make Bluelight what it was/is, are being driven away by "the new guard" for various bullshit reasons. REGIME CHANGE NOW!!!!
 
BL would cease to be as it is without xtcxtc. Yet he still shows EVERYONE the respect they deserve, even the little man who is just putting up an idea or two.

BL would run, and live on, quite smoothly I might add, without C-22. Yet he shows no one respect, replies to no one, no matter how valid of a point or great of an idea they have.

I see a major problem with this.
 
TopRocka said:
BL would cease to be as it is without xtcxtc. Yet he still shows EVERYONE the respect they deserve, even the little man who is just putting up an idea or two.

BL would run, and live on, quite smoothly I might add, without C-22. Yet he shows no one respect, replies to no one, no matter how valid of a point or great of an idea they have.
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I agree. Though my interaction with xtcxtc has been quite limited until very recently, I must say that communicating with him has been very pleasant as he's been open and respectful, and I thank him for that. Catch-22 on the other hand, couldn't be fucked to talk to any BLer, I'm sure he considers it "below" him. I believe Finder put it as the "absentee landlord", which I couldn't have said better myself.

That's one of many reason that I think this sight would be better without him, and that's not including our disagreements in the past.
 
i'm pretty sure everyone knows where i stand on this issue. just thought i'd add my name to the list in this thread...

i'm all for any solution that involves more than one person at the top (preferably people that actually give a shit about others).
 
TheLoveBandit said:
*bookmarked - I've read up to here.

A few short comments at this time, without a formal proposal or set of plans:
1) Sr. Admins read of the site what they choose, and chances are the threads addressing these issues are being read but not commented on. The actual level of Sr. Admin awareness and concern is something only known by those two individuals.

2) Admins *are* very aware, and are reading these threads, but still trying to work out ideas on how to improve the situation. Again, this is to say that *all* suggestions here are being read and thought about, but none of us are willing to step forward until we have a consensus decision. This is, perhaps, my way of saying that the "people's voices" are being heard.

3) Well, I'll shutup with this thought - evolution is inevitable in all situations. We can't predict influencing factors or final outcomes, but we can work to guide that evolution in whichever way is best for the site - keeping individual egos and desires seconded behind what is best for the site. That's what those of you involved in this discussion are doing, and it is appreciated. That's what those of us in "Admin" positions are trying to do.

*End bookmark - I need to read from here forward and summarize for myself the ideas already put forth.
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TheLoveBandit,

I would first like to say that my comments solely involve what you have reported here, and are not directed at you or at many of the other admins here.

What you've reported is endemic to the very problems which are being highlighted in this thread. In essence, unknown quantities on the other side of a virtual wall are reading the bits and pieces being spurted out by the brethren. :D

Are these guys closer to god than the rest of us poor earthings? :\

It is great that they are reading what is being said, but in all honesty, they need to drop this pastoral mindset of separation and get their asses in this thread, and start talking to everyone who they feel they are making decisions for.


If I am reading this correctly: the Senior Admins are totally asleep at the wheel and unaware that there is a train wreck in progress; the people below them are discussion the options that are available to them; and once "they make their decision" some smoke will appear from out of a chimney somewhere announcing that a new pope has been decided upon. Then someone will pass down the official statement so that everyone will be made aware of the new pontiff.

Is anything ever going to change? Am I the only one who is seeing how silly this all looks? 8(
 
^^ well said. i couldn't agree more.

almost everyone in this thread has brought some serious food for thought and, in many cases, viable alternatives to the table. now its time for "the powers that be" to show us enough goddamned respect as to join in the dialogue. stop talking amongst yourselves and start talking amongst the people. you've insulted a great number of us individually many a time... i wouldn't recommend insulting us en masse one more time.
 
-Thoth said:
Bluelight.nu should incorporate itself as a proper non-profit organisation, with it's own constitution and in line with relevant law. It should be run by an executive comittee, elected periodically and who are accountable to its membership. They should vote on relevant issues pertaining to the running of the site. There should be yearly bugetry audits etc, and all the other details that go with running such an organisation.

Bluelight has become to big, and too important to not be run like any other non-profit NGO in the world. At the moment, it's being run by the seat of its pants like an amateur fucking bake sale. It's leading to problems. More transperency and accountability is needed.
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Incorporating is a bigger can of worms than it may appear on the surface. The big question is where would such an incorporation occur? Bluelight is an international community.

Also, being a corporation Bluelight then becomes a legal entity, and is subject to the rules and regulations of any not-for-profit under the laws of the country upon which the corporation is held. That also opens Bluelight up to legal actions which can be applied to a legal entity.

Lets say, for example, that Bluelight ended up obtaining its not-for-profit status in the United States. It would then be obligated to respond if a court order demanding that all information about its list of members be turned over to the courts.

To further complicate things, if the Patriot Act was invoked, Bluelight could be legally gaged so that it could not announce the that there is a proceeding which is attempting to obtain membership information, and could even [I think] prevent a legal challenge from being heard in court ("national security"). It could even lead to Bluelight becoming [secretly] a possession of the courts. I leave the rest to your imagination...

This has already happened with a corporation whos servers were located in the UK and who's incorporation was within the US.

Before taking any such move, a great many issues would need to be considered.
 
^^^
Bluelight, however does need a constitution and would undoubtedly benefit from being run under an elected comittee model. Incorporating is a manner of acheiving that, and it could have legal benefits, too. Most legal risk can be carried by a public officer etc as is the case in most small organisations.

In any case, incorporation could take place in a neutral country with relatively liberal policies. Cook Islands anyone? Vanauatu? Or perhaps even Niue? ;)

This has already happened with a corporation whos servers were located in the UK and who's incorporation was within the US.

With BL DNS from Niue, and servers in the Netherlands... Why would the US come in to it?
 
I just deleted my response to this thread - I feel it's a bit of a lost cause. I'll be brief;

I don't contribute to this site anymore on principle. It's run by a cyber-tyrant who seems (through his actions) to categorically deny moderators/contributors any gratitude, consideration or respect in exchange for their time and effort.

That's a fundamental problem for any volunteer driven effort, IMHO. :(
 
TheLoveBandit said:
*1) Sr. Admins read of the site what they choose, and chances are the threads addressing these issues are being read but not commented on. The actual level of Sr. Admin awareness and concern is something only known by those two individuals.
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Catch hasn't posted in 7 days and hasn't even logged in in 4!! Unless he reads Bluelight logged out, I would say his awareness level of this situation is quite low. :\ Unless he's being kept "up to speed" via constant emails, which would be even worse IMO.
 
AlphaNumeric said:
Catch hasn't posted in 7 days and hasn't even logged in in 4!! Unless he reads Bluelight logged out, I would say his awareness level of this situation is quite low. :\ Unless he's being kept "up to speed" via constant emails, which would be even worse IMO.
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So one might say he's falling short of his post quota?

%)
 
-Thoth said:
^^^
Bluelight, however does need a constitution and would undoubtedly benefit from being run under an elected comittee model. Incorporating is a manner of acheiving that, and it could have legal benefits, too. Most legal risk can be carried by a public officer etc as is the case in most small organisations.

In any case, incorporation could take place in a neutral country with relatively liberal policies. Cook Islands anyone? Vanauatu? Or perhaps even Niue? ;)

This has already happened with a corporation whos servers were located in the UK and who's incorporation was within the US.

With BL DNS from Niue, and servers in the Netherlands... Why would the US come in to it?
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Incorporation would need to be in a neutral country which is not vulnerable with regards to US State Department intimidation.

Go to this post, and do a page search for the word "Indymedia"
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183700&r=2

Canada has just introduced laws to counter FBI investigations invoked under the Patriot Act, and protects Canadian companies and its citizens.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181607&r=12

If Bluelight was a US company, the Feds could place a court order against it, declare that it is a mater of national security, then put a gage order against its US officers, seize the log files, and take possession of the service. And then continue to operate it "as if" nothing had happened. Anyone outside of the US who violated the court order (e.g., made an announcement to the members) would be sealing the fate of the US Bluelight corporate officers.

Why would they want to do this is a subject for a different thread...
 
with regards to the admins being demoted to supermods and the other changes, etc, that go with that...

from what i've gathered by talking to a few former administrators (who shall remain nameless), those plans were in the works long before Catch-22 was even an admin, and the real problem wasnt neccisarily taht they got 'demoted', what really put a bad taste in everybody's mouth was the fact that it came suddenly, with no warning, and no discussion. everybody just wake up one morning and find out things have drastically changed, and wondering, "now wait, why didnt i know about this and why werent my opinions even considered?" that kinda thing. it all boils down to the administration not giving a fuck what the rest of the staff thinks and just doing their own thing.

also from what i gathered, the former admins i spoke with really wouldnt've cared about being "demoted" if they had simply been asked their opinions on the matter and had full knowledge of the discussions as they were going on.
 
I was already aware of the situation surrounding indymedia and most of the IMC's running on their servers. I think an incorporation (itself just a concept of discussion) would not be well served in the US. Obviously an organisation like BL would requrie specific conditions relative to our level of protection. However, these conditions do exist in numerous havens.
 
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