TLB, the only reason why I say that it is welcome in SO is that in the lounge it is more open to off-topic responses and flames. Also, the thread in the staff forum was closed, so how is this matter to be discussed there?
Skydancer -- A Democratic Bluelight *see first post for link to Skydancer's response*
- Thread starter xtcxtc
- Start date
TheLoveBandit
Retired Never Was, Coulda been wannabe
1) I agree the Lounge isn't a home for serious discussions, but why not conduct it in the SUPPORT thread xtcxtc started as opposed to SO? Or drag over the one from EDD which already has two or three sister threads into SUPPORT - perhaps merging them? Or push them all to SO (though I'd suspect SUPPORT would be a more appropriate home).
2) The only responses in the SF were degnerating into non-useful discussion. The reasons for that are not worth debate.
- move this, contact me to merge some threads together in a single place, whatever - I don't expect/intend/want discussion to cease, I just prefer it be done in a way that is constructive, not out of control.
3) to address geez-A's suggestion - yes, it ought to handled privately, but there are a large number of people without access to that forum (former staff members) who would probably have valid and useful input on the discussion. They ought to be heard as much as the mods and admins. Additionally, I dislike public heated discussions (fights, if you prefer) but that's where some parties are determined to drag this since they can't get the response they desire from private conversations - at least not in a timely fashion that suits them.![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
2) The only responses in the SF were degnerating into non-useful discussion. The reasons for that are not worth debate.
- move this, contact me to merge some threads together in a single place, whatever - I don't expect/intend/want discussion to cease, I just prefer it be done in a way that is constructive, not out of control.
3) to address geez-A's suggestion - yes, it ought to handled privately, but there are a large number of people without access to that forum (former staff members) who would probably have valid and useful input on the discussion. They ought to be heard as much as the mods and admins. Additionally, I dislike public heated discussions (fights, if you prefer) but that's where some parties are determined to drag this since they can't get the response they desire from private conversations - at least not in a timely fashion that suits them.
I think that these threads (the one in support vs this one vs the ones in EDD) are different in their subject matter but do come to the same conclusion. Something (or someone) isn't right here, and hasn't been for quite some time now.
Mr. Sticky
Bluelighter
I think we should handle this the way the American public addresses all its political choices...those who pay the most for the election (or...let's say for argumentative purposes...the bluelight server) make the fucking rules.
Everybody else can politely go fuck themselves with Ed Koch's dick.
Everybody else can politely go fuck themselves with Ed Koch's dick.
TheLoveBandit said:yes, it ought to handled privately, but there are a large number of people without access to that forum (former staff members) who would probably have valid and useful input on the discussion. They ought to be heard as much as the mods and admins. Additionally, I dislike public heated discussions (fights, if you prefer) but that's where some parties are determined to drag this since they can't get the response they desire from private conversations - at least not in a timely fashion that suits them.
I, for one, only resorted to hostility towards Catch-22 when he wouldn't respond to ANY of my attempts at a civil dialogue... timely or otherwise. He has never answered a single PM, e-mail or post of mine... ever. What am I supposed to think? How is that supposed to make me feel?
Just a few thoughts after having viewed the EDD issue in question. Given that I do not know the specifics of BL bureaucracy, some of these suggestions may already be in place, but I thought I would throw them out there. If some of my suggestions are already in place, feel free to assrape me.
1) It seems apparent to me that if there aren't already some more formalized administrative checks and balances, there ought to be. As BL continues to grow/evolve I think some formal system will be required-we can't rely on an informalized bureaucratic infrastructure. In the EDD dispute in question, while I don't know Catch-22 personally and I would not impugn his motives in doing what he's doing, it seems to me that the methodology of going about it was flawed.
For instance, I think that any changes to forum format should be subjected to a panel vote of 3 Administrators, but only after a vote of the forum participants listing all possible alternatives is taken. Basically what I'm saying is that I think there needs to be some type of formal BL administrative Constitution set up, if there isn't one already, with specific guidelines for such major issues as forum changes that would formalize a bureaucratic procedure for enacting such changes while at the same time preserving (to the greatest extent possible) BL membership input on the changes.
2) If we assume that BL will continue to grow, I think it's inevitable at some point that we have to consider making certain forums "premium pay access" to support the additional infrastructure required to run them. While I would advocate maintaining such essential functions as harm reduction/education forums as free access, I think that the non-essential high-traffic forums will have to be converted to premium access forums to support the required infrastructure...it just seems inevitable to me.
The benefits of making certain forums premium pay access:
a) Less trolling/alterego harassment-trolls are far less likely to engage in such behavior if their premium access is revoked and they have to pay a reinstatement fee...for that matter, most trolls probably wouldn't pay the premium to begin with. Would also cut down on flaming/ad homs if premium members knew their access could also be revoked for excessively offensive behavior. Of course, such revocation would also require a formalized bureaucratic process to ensure checks and balances against abuse.
b) Reinforces a "long-haul" view of BL life-if you're required to pay to access certain forums, you're more likely to place an emphasis on the value of BL, and support its quality accordingly. It would also discourage "bump and run" traffic and encourage more initial bonding of new members in the free "newbie" forums, thereby offering greater cohesion once the members moved up to the premium pay forums.
c) Would allow BL to better support the work of the mods/admins by providing funds for technical support, and even remuneration if need be.
3) Finally, (though this is really just window-dressing) I think we ought to adopt a BLer "Bill of Rights" which essentially incorporates the Code of Conduct...e.g., the right to be free from harassment/"alterego stalking", the right to be free of ad hom attacks, etc.
And no, I don't think the right to have sex with any other BLer upon request would make the cut...not on the initial Bill of Rights anyway. Maybe as an Amendment or something if 2/3 of the membership approved it.
1) It seems apparent to me that if there aren't already some more formalized administrative checks and balances, there ought to be. As BL continues to grow/evolve I think some formal system will be required-we can't rely on an informalized bureaucratic infrastructure. In the EDD dispute in question, while I don't know Catch-22 personally and I would not impugn his motives in doing what he's doing, it seems to me that the methodology of going about it was flawed.
For instance, I think that any changes to forum format should be subjected to a panel vote of 3 Administrators, but only after a vote of the forum participants listing all possible alternatives is taken. Basically what I'm saying is that I think there needs to be some type of formal BL administrative Constitution set up, if there isn't one already, with specific guidelines for such major issues as forum changes that would formalize a bureaucratic procedure for enacting such changes while at the same time preserving (to the greatest extent possible) BL membership input on the changes.
2) If we assume that BL will continue to grow, I think it's inevitable at some point that we have to consider making certain forums "premium pay access" to support the additional infrastructure required to run them. While I would advocate maintaining such essential functions as harm reduction/education forums as free access, I think that the non-essential high-traffic forums will have to be converted to premium access forums to support the required infrastructure...it just seems inevitable to me.
The benefits of making certain forums premium pay access:
a) Less trolling/alterego harassment-trolls are far less likely to engage in such behavior if their premium access is revoked and they have to pay a reinstatement fee...for that matter, most trolls probably wouldn't pay the premium to begin with. Would also cut down on flaming/ad homs if premium members knew their access could also be revoked for excessively offensive behavior. Of course, such revocation would also require a formalized bureaucratic process to ensure checks and balances against abuse.
b) Reinforces a "long-haul" view of BL life-if you're required to pay to access certain forums, you're more likely to place an emphasis on the value of BL, and support its quality accordingly. It would also discourage "bump and run" traffic and encourage more initial bonding of new members in the free "newbie" forums, thereby offering greater cohesion once the members moved up to the premium pay forums.
c) Would allow BL to better support the work of the mods/admins by providing funds for technical support, and even remuneration if need be.
3) Finally, (though this is really just window-dressing) I think we ought to adopt a BLer "Bill of Rights" which essentially incorporates the Code of Conduct...e.g., the right to be free from harassment/"alterego stalking", the right to be free of ad hom attacks, etc.
And no, I don't think the right to have sex with any other BLer upon request would make the cut...not on the initial Bill of Rights anyway. Maybe as an Amendment or something if 2/3 of the membership approved it.
Mariposa
Bluelight Crew
I think a "Bluelight Rights and Responsibilities" (because with rights come responsibilities) is a fine idea.
Anarchofascist
Ex-Bluelighter
glowbug said:
I'd be gone. Even if the fee were nominal, I still lack a bank account or a credit card, so payment would automatically be unncessarily complicated.
Nevermind the fact that this would inevitably end the Bluelight policy of anonymity, and suddenly skydancer has a big pile of invoices on his lap that Interpol would just lovvvvve to get their hands on.
And no, I'm not paranoid, I'm not particularly private about who I am, either. But I think the potential for real anonymity is a HUGE part of what makes bluelight what it is.
Anarcho: remember, you'd still have the non-premium forums....and with Paypal or something like that you would have relative anonymity. Hell, if premium access was really helping the board, and some people had trouble paying, I'm sure some of us could pay for them. I know I would. I'm assuming we'd be looking at around $5 or so, same as Metafilter uses.
Whatever the problems are with Bluelight should be sorted out SOMEHOW by the admin/mods and whose opinions they WANT to hear in a private forum- its not a good thing to see those who run it and the old schoolers fighting each other.
Right, I think there would be ways to preserve anonymity. And the fee would be nominal, like $10/yr or something...it would be the hassle of reupping every time you got kicked that would deter the trolls.
Mind you, I'm not really in favor of instituting a premium pay access policy...I just think it's inevitable eventually, so we ought to at least discuss it.
Mind you, I'm not really in favor of instituting a premium pay access policy...I just think it's inevitable eventually, so we ought to at least discuss it.
Mariposa
Bluelight Crew
Geez-A said:
Ordinarily I would agree with you, but there are many people who do not have access to the Staff Forum whose contributions to this site more than warrant their voices being heard.
blahblahblah
Bluelighter
The site might splinter...? What does that mean Europeans/Americans would have different BL's...?
Just curious. I just like to discuss drugs and issues regarding them, thats why I came here and thats why I stayed, not to make friends, not to get sources, not to post pictures, etc. etc...
Anyways BL is a favorite pastime of mine and hope it stays that way. With that said off to grab a few pints.
Geez-A said:
I see your point, but as others have said, there isn't such a facility. The other problem being that, if you limit debate to "whose opinions they WANT to hear" you run the risk of an echo chamber - just asking people who already agree with you. (That's true in any situation, not just here). And everyone's opinion should be heard - someone like you who has been here a year or so has a stake in BL, just as much as someone who lost their first user account when the server crashed in 1999.
Roger&Me
Bluelighter
Just a quick question...how did Catch come into power anyways? I mean, why specifically him?
xtcxtc
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 30, 1999
- Messages
- 1,978
dreamgirlie19 said:Voices should always be welcomed with open arms, positive or negative in matters like these
mp420 and others --- am still v v hungover and G'ed out and have only read a handul of the posts but i am so happy to see this discussion taking place.