Skydancer -- A Democratic Bluelight *see first post for link to Skydancer's response*

David, you are diverting a topic worthy of discussion into a battle for your right to speech. This is very disappointing, primarily because I've seen posts from you that can be fairly intelligent, argumentative (even in a constructive way), and mature....but you appear to be losing it here.

++++

Back on topic...I was afraid of public discussion, and specifically making a formal statement, simply because in the few hours since I last read up on this thread it has grown another two pages - plenty of time for misquoting and tangential rioting for the wrong reasons. For the most part, this is still a very valid discussion raising legitimate points. Solutions are still short while the complaint list appears nearly beaten to death.

Hardly anyone who has spoken did so without passion, and IMO, most had a right to speak out. And of those speaking, some of the never-been-a-mod members raise the best clarification or suggestion (though I'll throw a big nod to 64tf on his post, despite the title ;) ).

You can rest assured that both Sr. Admins have been notified regarding the issue. And I can speak from personal knowledge that all Admins are aware (thank you michael for re-inforcing the fact that I'm not the only one reading this).

I sincerely hope and believe a solution can be worked out, one that continues the technical improvements while returning our member-value and "homey-ness/family-feel". Please, let's keep the discussion going in that direction. What changes will improve the site? Not just give a sense of retribution (firing Catch) or self redemption (will I get a mod spot back). Focus on what would make this place feel AND operate better.

I ask myself, if I wasn't an Admin - dropped back to bluelighter status - how would that effect me? Well, I might be getting some sleep these days (this thread is a lot to bear, as are the feelings behind it), but I'd still be contributing nearly as much in all the same places. This isn't intended as a statement of "look at me" (though it plays that way), but more of a reflection on the fact that this site is extremely valuable to a lot of us. Not just those who volunteer their mod services, or those that foot the bill, or those that just check in and read some FAQ as a greenlighter - but to a lot of people in a lot of positions. And we all want a better Bluelight. Each may have in mind what makes a better site, but we need to see as many options as possible in order to increase our ability to change in the right way.

I'm just sorry I'll be offline for the next few days on business...I know I'll have a LOT to read up on ;)
 
What changes will improve the site? Not just give a sense of retribution (firing Catch) or self redemption (will I get a mod spot back). Focus on what would make this place feel AND operate better.
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I'm not one to get into specifics, but these are solutions that i personally would like to see, even though they personally don't affect me, but for the community.

#1. I would at least like one other Admin added to the site. This admin, along with Catch and Skydancer should increase in communication about fairly important decisions. This Admin spot should be voted on in the Mod forum by moderators, sen mods, admin, and the Sn. Admin themselves. This isn't asking Catch to step down, but merely share the power. I think the qualifications for this Admin should be techinical were applicable, a well working knowledge of bluelight, an active participant, and someone who bests reflects the wishes of the community.

#2- Catch should do more than look at statistics. This should also be made apparant in action, not just lip service.

#3-- Leave the post quota. Fine. But at least warn a mod first if they are in danger of losing their positon and give some kind of probationary period. I feel moderators should be on some kind of strict warning system, not "you fucked up so see ya" system. Also, mods that share that forum, and that forum's direct Senior moderator should be able to discuss the status of that individual situation. This should not be as easy as Catch pushing a button when statistics show something unfavorable. This communication though should take place in the mod forum if at all possible. I know it airs out dirty laundry.. if say .. Catch-22, BlueAdonis and say.. Alasdairm have a quarell, for all of bluelight to see, but i think alot of information gets left out between all the e-mailing and PMing back and forth. People get left out of the loop pretty easily this way. Still using my hypothetical scenario, the Film and TV mods, Snr mod, and Admin should be the only ones to comment in this thread.

For instance the thread could be titled
"Film and Television Moderator Problem Re: Alasdairm". Everyone who's not Snr. mod and above, other than Film and TV mods should stay out of the conversation, do not post. Punishment for interfering should put a mod on probation, a 2nd time, should result the loss of mod status. If we a more democratic nature and more communication within bluelight there should be strict rules adhered to i think in order to preserve organization.

#4-- I would like to see suggestions in Support taken more seriously by the admin. Whether this is about new forums or banner ads or anything else that comes their way. There's been many great suggestions in that forum and very rarely are they acted on. I feel in good faith, since Brian Oblivion's LEAP banner is agreed upon so unanimously..that upon approval from LEAP, this should be added to bluelight. I think this would serve a purpose beyond sating the supporters of the suggestion by showing the admins reaching out to the community in some way shape or form. It's simple to implement and not very time consuming. The 2nd thing that i feel should be done in good faith, is to leave EDD alone.. and to issue an official apology, preferably a locked thread. The best thing Catch, sky, and their supporters (admin or otherwise) can do to help bridge the gap of dissent in the BL community is to post here (hopefully anyone that flames them will be properly edited by the S.O. mods). But since so many people took part in this "debate" so to speak, i think it would be nice for members, former mods, mods, and other posters here to finally get a reply from them. This "behind the curtains" all the time crap has to stop.

#5, I'm not saying the Admin should have a post quota. But they should at least participate in the community to some degree. I'm not saying get involved in the drama of bluelight, but everyonce in a while.. make a post that's not purely professional. It's nice to see the "rulers" come down and associate with the common people.

#6 when huge decisions are made, such as revamping Life into Second Opinion.. this and other heavy handed situations should be handled in a somewhat of a democratic manner.

basically anywhere you can see a "flippant" attitude out of the admin towards volunteers or towards various communities on the board.. i feel there should be some kind of check and balance to some varying degree.
 
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^
Well, virtually everyone has made opinions - i just want to see what Catch or Sky have to say about all this and what they think would make a better Bluelight :\

will we get a clearcut answer or more rhetoric? I hope the former but i'd place my money on the latter...:\

edit: meant for TLB, and thats a brilliant post DD :)
 
I don't really have anything to say that hasn't already been said very well by other people in this thread. I guess all I want to say is this: I hope some decisions are made quickly, and I hope that whatever outcome results from this controversy will be one that brings the BL community closer together, not even further divided.

As a moderator and as someone who cares deeply for the people and ideas that circulate here, I am willing to work with fellow staff members in whatever capacity is required of me to bring about some sort of harmonious resolution.

Hang in there, everyone!
 
#4-- I would like to see suggestions in Support taken more seriously by the admin. Whether this is about new forums or banner ads or anything else that comes their way. There's been many great suggestions in that forum and very rarely are they acted on.

agree.

I feel in good faith, since Brian Oblivion's LEAP banner is agreed upon so unanimously..that upon approval from LEAP, this should be added to bluelight. I think this would serve a purpose beyond sating the supporters of the suggestion by showing the admins reaching out to the community in some way shape or form. It's simple to implement and not very time consuming.

see my last post on same here >>

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2748756#post2748756

The 2nd thing that i feel should be done in good faith, is to leave EDD alone.. and to issue an official apology, preferably a locked thread.

i would also like to see it left alone. p'raps same could be reviewed in 3 mths after input from contributors and especially mods.

RE MY CHANGE IN STATUS SEE HERE >>

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2740664#post2740664
 
#5, I'm not saying the Admin should have a post quota. But they should at least participate in the community to some degree. I'm not saying get involved in the drama of bluelight, but everyonce in a while.. make a post that's not purely professional. It's nice to see the "rulers" come down and associate with the common people.

Walt does do this ( but much less of the professional stuff ) --- do a search for skydancer and check "show results as posts" not by thread.

to be fair to Catch i suspect he is too busy.
 
-Thoth said:
Bluelight.nu should incorporate itself as a proper non-profit organisation, with it's own constitution and in line with relevant law. It should be run by an executive comittee, elected periodically and who are accountable to its membership. They should vote on relevant issues pertaining to the running of the site. There should be yearly bugetry audits etc, and all the other details that go with running such an organisation.
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I'd like to follow up on Thoth's line of thought, one which I had also bounced around in reading this thread...

I think at some point it would behoove BL to give serious consideration to incorporating as a nonprofit organization, although not in the US or AUS as IU pointed out, given their political climates regarding harm reduction. With written bylaws and an administrative board, this site could REALLY move forward with much more focused efforts to promote harm reduction, seeking other donative sources and perhaps even stepping forward into real offline grassroots activities such as those promoted by DanceSafe.

I think such a step would be an immensely positive one, as it would give BL members a concrete outlet for our desires to make a difference. Right now, it seems that BL has a strong community of devoted members, members willing to work toward a common goal...but because we seem to have hit a rather stagnant point in BL's evolution with no new clearly defined objectives, much of that drive is being stymied, and instead we find ourselves bickering and turning inward upon one another.

It's not too hard to envision that the bickering will only worsen and further erode the community's infrastructure if BL does not at some point outline a clear direction for the future. I realize that this is still a private site and that the opinions of mere community members such as myself really don't carry any weight, but I think the time is fast approaching for the decisionmakers at the top to decide if they want this site to grow into something truly magnificent-something that transcends the involvement of specific individuals-or simply let it atrophy from benign neglect.

As for the idea of drafting a model set of bylaws/Constitution, I'm positive there are quite a few individuals here that would be willing to volunteer their time and experience to assist in the process of doing so, should the BL powers that be consider exploring that option at some point in the future. I would also imagine that funds could be raised to pay for the legal costs of attaining nonprofit status in a friendly-State forum.

I hope that the BL powers that be take this opportunity not only to address these issues from the standpoint of a short-term fix, but use it as an opportunity to look farther down the road as well.
 
^^^
I agree completely. BL now is run as an adhocracy, policies and organisational frameworks are generated on the fly and delivered from the top down, rarely with any transparency or accountability. You can't function like that forever.
 
TLB asked....

"What should be done?"

Take it back to how it used to be. Back in the day. You know, you were there.

Mods took ownership of their forums. Let's say that I mod a forum (say, New to Ecstasy). And only myself and one other mod are active. So, I email the other two and say "hey, notice you haven't been posting much, do you still have time to mod?". And let's say Day for Night writes back and says "no, I'm too busy with Other Drugs, get someone else in". And the other mod doesn't reply at all and hasn't posted in months.

So I go to MPC and ask for those two to be removed (saying why). Then we call for nominations in the forum for new mods. People put themselves forward, the forum mods and admins and anyone else interested discuss in MPC, and we chose two new mods.

Decision made, from the ground up.

Same if we want to alter the scope of a forum, or create a new one. You discuss it in MPC, then discuss it in the forum (or post in Announcements and Feedback). That's how I became a mod in the first place, when the Dark Side thread was posted in A&F.

It's not a democracy in either the representative or absolute sense. But it lets people who want to be involved, be involved.

What you have now, from what I've heard in this thread, is a top-down approach, where decisions are made without explanation or consultation. Where good mods are warned about their behaviour, without being given specifics (see Alasdairm's post; see also comments that have been made about Dr Suess (of all people) undermining admins. Even see the letter Tathra got when he was sacked. It's almost Maoist. What next, mods will be expected to criticise themselves?

The ironic thing is that even mods who C-22 actually *liked* get pissed off by the way things are run. I'm a good example of someone who left partially for the reasons people have stated in this thread, and was asked to come back....

So that's the forums. At a higher level, you have a handful of admins, not one or two. If some become less active (as Abygale did according to the email from Johnboy quoted earlier) then you replace them. Admins consult downwards to the mods, maybe even to the board as a whole (put a thread in A&F, get feedback. It's not binding, but you take it into consideration).

There's no need for anything more formal.

I appreciated Spencer's comments, as well. ALthough I do think that Skydancer is more open to consultation than Spence seems to think. Around 2001-2 this board was run relatively democratically, along the lines that I mentioned above.

Finally, on the topic of quotas and so on. As others have said, posting lots is not an indication of worth. In CE&P a mod will be performing an important function just by deleting flames. Bel, Thoth and Buzzy were all good mods in that sense, even though they didn't post much.

Equally, this focus on numbers has had a negative effect on the board as a whole. Think of the 'top 50 posters' threads. At first they were fun (hey, see how high I'm going). Everyone on the list was someone I respected, a valued board member. Then the serious postwhoring started. Soon you had people with 10000 posts who'd only been here a year. And most of those posts were Lounge posts of dubious quality. The result undermines what BL is (a place to share information and build community) and turns it into "who can post the fastest and the most?".

OK, that's way too long so I'm outta here. Good to see so many of the old names and faces around.

[And Spencer, can you give me a pill ID on those Purple Ashkes? ;)]

~Simon~
 
Thoth
^^If that is to happen certain people have a to give a lot.

SD currently holds the Domain registration. Honestly that is the choice bargining chip right now, and I doubt he wants to give that up.

XTCXTC, is the sole source of capital. Normally non profits are managing more the one person's donation. What your talking about requires that he disperses his decision making (he seems interested in this).

Technical, If catch, and SD are going to turn over control they might not be interested in maintaining it anymore. I don't know what benifits the site might bring them, but your talking about pulling it completely from them. They will have no legal stake in the site anymore. Why would SD want it on his servers? Why would Catch work on the VB code, and bring use nice things like the gallery?

There are hosting forums that use Bluelight as the example for what they would not host.

Most coders wouldn't want catch's job.

That's a lot of giving, and the last part is the hardest.
 
When I used to talk to Catch back as we were just becoming admins, I remember him saying to me that he basically knew squat about computers. Unless he's done some kind of course or training since then, that may be a large reason why everything is denied - lack of technical skill as much as lack of caring. Skydancer obviously has the skill, but maybe not the desire to use it. Jakoz also had the skill, but Catch essentially drove him out with his style and approach - he hardly even posts at all now.

Maybe it would just be better if they came out and told us all to get fucked and that it wasn't going to change. At least then we'd know where we stand, and can choose to stay and accept it, or move on.
 
Contrary with what may appear to be the case, I don't bismirch catch or skydancers hard work and dedication to the site. Its difficult to imagine anyone else who has done more hard work. I remember when Catch was a moderator, and all the stuff he did above and beyond his station, eventually earning him his current administrator position.

But to say that there is a dearth of people wanting to get involved and assist the site is untrue. It's also the case that running the site should be done in a manner that reflects the reality of what it is, a (large) community.

A organisational structure with catch or SD as executive officers would be great. Nobody wants to wrestle the whole site from their control and fucking fire them.. People just want some reform in the manner the place is organised. Formal incorporation is one way of doing this (might not be the best, it has issues and complications), and I only mentioned it because this is the way most other non-profits comparable to BL in size and budget operate. It's a reasonable solution...
 
64tf:
-Thoth is right that C-22 has put a lot of effort and made important contributions here. I don't think anyone is asking Skydancer to give anything up - are they?

The technical issues you mention: we don't need a gallery. We don't need journals. Those are optional add-ons. When I fell in love with this board we had no gallery (well, there was a small pics page), no journals, no PMs, no search engine, and threads were closed after 100 posts because longer threads made the board unstable. And we had to walk five miles in the snow just to find a computer to post on. [That last bit might be made up].

Even if we had to give up some of these things, I think a democratic BL would be worth it in exchange.

(And finally bear in mind that Chr1.5, Oopsz, buzzy and Jakoz, as well as many others, all have impressive technical skills).
 
I don't think anyone is asking Skydancer to give anything up - are they?

only the absolute final contol he has over BL ( together with Catch ).

i have emailed him asking if he would consider a proposal for a more "democratic" BL.

maybe we can slow this down for a day or so and see if i get a reply -- then decide how to proceed based on his answer.
 
I'm going to refrain from comment untill one of the Senor Admins comments. It's really irrelventent until then.
 
Catch has logged in in the last few hours so hopefully he's at least aware of the situation now and forming a response.

Hopefully......
 
64tf said:
XTCXTC, is the sole source of capital. Normally non profits are managing more the one person's donation. What your talking about requires that he disperses his decision making (he seems interested in this).
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Actually, attaining nonprofit status would greatly enhance BL's ability to attract other donations, as it would give BL legitimacy and serve as a form of assurance that any monies donated were being utilized for the donor's intended purpose. It would definitely reduce BL's dependence on xtcxtc as BL's "angel"...though I don't know him personally, xtc strikes me as someone who is genuinely concerned for the welfare of the BL community rather than preserving his "controlling financial interest" position.

The current BL principals would naturally be emplaced as the principal executive members of the executive branch (call it board of governors, executive committee or whatever), with a clear means of remaining in their positions if they so chose. It would also provide for a smooth transition and means of succession, should the current principals ever decide that the time requirements of their personal pursuits conflicted with those of BL.

Did you ever think about that? What would presently happen if, say, SD decided that his personal life required an abrupt departure from its current path? This community would be thrown into a good bit of turmoil, I think.

I've never spoken to SD and I owe him a huge debt of gratitude for his role as one of the "founding fathers" of this site, but it's a tremendous burden to ask one, or even a handful, of individuals to continue providing the same support in perpetuity. I would hope that knowing that the community was well-positioned to thrive even if he decided to leave to pursue other interests would be both a comfort and a source of great pride to SD.
 
Alright ive skipped a few pages so i might look stupid but here's my opinion.

I've only been here for just over a year and the reason why i joined was because I saw this place was seperate from any other forum i've been on, on the net before. And I'm thankful to those who have funded this site, and i wish i could afford it in someway myself aswell, but i can'tso i contribute in my own way by posting here. Isn't that just as important? Aren't we(the members) making your payments to this site worthwhile? That's what I can't understand. It seems like Catch just wants everything to go to waste, maybe he hasn't exactly pictured what would happen if he does piss on us?Well here's the bigger picture: We will all fuck off elsewhere and someone WILL make a new site, there's no doubt about that. It happened when the site was being worked on, quite a few more forums were set up, but were only temporary but were going to be funded properly if BL was to fuck up completely.

So all this power-mad shit, is just ridiculous. It's ruining a forum for no good reason, the posters of Bluelight are just as important as those who own the board. Without us, you would have nothing. Were thankful to you guys, maybe you should be thankful to us.

xtcxtc, I know you fund this site mostly(from my understanding) but this was mainly aimed at Catch as you can probably tell. Even though i've disagreed with some of your actions in the past, you've certainly helped us out during this time aswell as funding the site, so for that i respect you.
 
I have been a long time lurker, but rare poster. Most of the current problems seem to come from catch-22 not bothering to explain his descisions. They may be perfectly rational, but unless he can back them up with his reasons they appear to be irrational crap coming from the mouth of a dictator.
 
I've been putting off my response to this thread because I haven't been sure what to put, but as a former moderator I really feel that I should make my opinions clear.

When I was a moderator (about 2.5 years ago?), Catch-22 seemed like a pretty decent guy who did a lot of hard work for the site. This was back in the day when you had a team of a few moderators for a forum, and if one of them stopped posting for a while, the other two would PM eachother asking if they know where the missing person is and between them would decided whether he/she was coming back and report it to the admins if the situation was becoming a problem. I liked this decentralised approach. Appointing people to a forum and actually LETTING THEM COLLECTIVELY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT seemed to work really well and really gave a feeling that the board belonged, collectively, to anyone who made enough of an effort to become a moderator. Even the moderator positions were down to the current mods.

One of the reasons I stopped being a moderator was that I could see the management style being like it was at work, and I come to bluelight as an escape from work. Since I left, it has just become more and more so.

The summary of my post is : Catch-22, what happened to you? You are under no official obligation to explain yourself any bluelight, or leave yourself accountable to anything, but don't ever think that you owe the members of bluelight nothing, because this board owes them everything and you sure as hell don't act like it any more.
 
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