Skydancer -- A Democratic Bluelight *see first post for link to Skydancer's response*
- Thread starter xtcxtc
- Start date
ebeneezer_geeza
Bluelighter
Grep said:
This about sums up my feelings though i continue to serve TDS and try to ignore other things though i will put in my thoughts. Since joining this site I have seen some good ppl go who shouldnt have, i have seen countless threads closed before they got started cuz ppl in power can simply just close them if they dont like em (this especially true in the staff forum, where nobody seems to have much of a say).
the ppl who pay for and host the servers do a thankless job and perhaps we should run some income generating schemes so that BL is self funding so this isnt just down to a few/or one. i only see BENEFACTOR applying to one person and my thanks go out for keeping such a great site going, if there are others thanks to those too.
Bl should have some kind of democratic not autocratic leadership but not one where we cant move before we all take votes. i would have thought a benevolent few can run this site.
ebeneezer_geeza
Bluelighter
forgotten said:
for sure.
xtcxtc
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 30, 1999
- Messages
- 1,978
BilZ0r said:
i am sure Catch is upset --- he would need to be inhuman not to be, so no, you are not a pussy.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2736701#post2736701
from an exchange of PM's >>
i believe is a v smart, v hard working, v v valuable member of BL but i do not believe he is doing a good job as "dictator" and i am trying to enforce his resignation. -- cheers, alan
Yes, I completely agree. I don't think it's enough for people to just ask him to "be more open-minded" etc. I think that he has to go, because in my experience of the world: people rarely change. "yyyy"
having thought about this even more than i have already i do not believe it possible for anyone to act effectively as a "dictator" of BL.
whoever is effectively the CEO needs the absolute support and guidance of both those above and below the command chain.
also >>
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2735873#post2735873
Last edited:
rock_lobster
Bluelighter
Spencer said:
Perhaps, in that case, we should make it easier for people with a poll?
I suggest two choices.
1) I am dreadfully unhappy with the attitude of the senior administrators on this board and I demand serious change, now!
2) I am very happy with the senior adminstrators on this board, bravo!
"I/We don't care about comments (Catch-22) and will only be checking the number of votes!"
I've been watching this thread quite closely over the last few days and I'm delighted that xtcxtc has brought the subject up. I was surprised to see a such a massive undercurrent of public disatisfaction with the way things currently stand. Although does anyone else get the feeling that had anyone else started this post it would have been promptly locked !!
I don't have the time at the moment to voice my opinion in the way that I'd like to, besides, some very smart and articulate posts have been made so far which more than encapsulate my feelings.
For me, the huge democratic issues aside, the two other issues that have made my blood boil the most have been simply manners and communication. In my opinion the senior administrators of this board are utterly dysfunctional in these areas and unfortunately they are traits that are required in quantity to ensure things work smoothly.
vnvnation
Bluelighter
rock_lobster, we couldnt possibly do that because it'd get deleted asap
catch-22 needs to sort himself out, and listen to people instead of beign a dickhead
catch-22 needs to sort himself out, and listen to people instead of beign a dickhead
rock_lobster
Bluelighter
If people are 'allowed' to voice their opinions/distain in the richness of their posts, then why not with a simple black & white poll ?
What do the moderators of Second Opinion feel? (he says contensiously
)
What do the moderators of Second Opinion feel? (he says contensiously
)DigitalDuality
Bluelighter
I for one will not support this being made into a poll. Catch needs to stop looking at numbers for a moment and actually see what people are saying. People mentioned that communication needs to be worked on when it comes to the Senior Admin, well half of that communication is listening. Reducing our opinion down to numbers for Catch is simply feeding part of the problem, not solving it.
josh_nexus
Bluelighter
I have been a bluelight member since quite early on, not as long some of you, but still a fair while. In my various incantations I have seen the site change a fair bit since I first joined, but I have always found it to be one of the best resources for drug information available. As a plain old member I have very little idea of what is currently going on at the managment level of bluelight, but if it causing this level of discontent then obviously something needs to be done.
It seems to me that this debate can only be finalised if those persons in question come forward and have an open and frank debate about the way they see BL going.
At the moment, for those who are interested, but on the outside of the information loop, it is very hard to get solid information regarding any difficulties that BL is facing.
A community message board like bluelight is nothing if not for its contributers, and this includes every member of bluelight. Democracy is a difficult thing to do on a web board, for there is too little accountability amongst the voting population. However it is important for those in power to be mindful of the fact that, just the same as if they werent around, if the average members are not there then neither is the site.
I really dont care who runs this site, but I am concerned about these troubles affecting the quality of the content which IMHO is all that matters. People do need this site as a resource and, as it stands, if the those who run it want to keep it legitimate, then changes must be made.
Perhaps it would be possible to separate the fiscal and hardware related administration from the actual web board side of it. Leave those running the hard side of BL to do what they want, but take a wider range of opinions relating to the make up and organisation of the content of the site. Perhaps a rotation basis; 6 or so site admins who rotate, two at a time, running that side of BL. Or something else. As I said I dont know what is going on and so I cant really offer anything too productive.
It seems to me that this debate can only be finalised if those persons in question come forward and have an open and frank debate about the way they see BL going.
At the moment, for those who are interested, but on the outside of the information loop, it is very hard to get solid information regarding any difficulties that BL is facing.
A community message board like bluelight is nothing if not for its contributers, and this includes every member of bluelight. Democracy is a difficult thing to do on a web board, for there is too little accountability amongst the voting population. However it is important for those in power to be mindful of the fact that, just the same as if they werent around, if the average members are not there then neither is the site.
I really dont care who runs this site, but I am concerned about these troubles affecting the quality of the content which IMHO is all that matters. People do need this site as a resource and, as it stands, if the those who run it want to keep it legitimate, then changes must be made.
Perhaps it would be possible to separate the fiscal and hardware related administration from the actual web board side of it. Leave those running the hard side of BL to do what they want, but take a wider range of opinions relating to the make up and organisation of the content of the site. Perhaps a rotation basis; 6 or so site admins who rotate, two at a time, running that side of BL. Or something else. As I said I dont know what is going on and so I cant really offer anything too productive.
SA
Bluelight Crew
Although most weight in this thread will be rightly given to posts/views/rants by admins, mods, ex-mods, ex-engineers (Happy Birthday ), and other 1337 members, I thought I'd throw in my 2 rusty cents all the same.
I haven't been here as long as some, but long enough to see the changes. Whatever ancillary benefits these changes were meant to bring about, the results have been a failing grade. The change was so obvious too, like a line drawn in the sand. One day there were quality, helpful posts, the next day the board turned into spam central. The worst part was that a good portion of these "new and improved" posts were being started by mods. I've never seen mods start so many threads in my life, on any forum on the web.
I must have learnt the internet backasswards, but I had always thought that a moderator's primary responsibility was to moderate posts. In a community as large as BL, a mod should not have the time to start as many threads as has been happening (quota driven). Forums are created to satisfy an increased member-, not mod, generated interest in a new subject matter. If interest in an existing subject matter drops off and post activity in that forum ceases for an extended duration, then it should not fall on the moderator(s) of that forum to keep it alive, it should fall on the admin crew to review the focus of that forum, maybe change its spectrum or title based on member post subject matter. The public decides what they want to talk about, not the moderators, not the admins. The moderators are there to keep the conversations to their appropriate rooms/forums and the admins are there to ensure there are enough rooms and that all rooms are working properly.
Assigning posting quotas to moderators has never worked. Every single forum that I know of where this has been tried has either failed, or has been overhauled (read: overtaken). Bluelight is, without a doubt, at the same crossroads. Most people have thusfar looked on this situation in a political light, speaking of such concepts as democracy. I see this as more of an employer-employee relationship. The regional managers and the supervisors are all running around, trying to act busy, all in a futile effort to satisfy the whims of the CEO. Those who do not pretend well enough to be busy enough are fired. The anxiety and discontent transfers all the way down the ranks. Before you know it, the company has hardly any happy employees left, no one smiles any more, and it shows by the declining customer base. The employees stay only long enough to finance their search for another job or to start a company of their own. I am sure it is much easier to leave this job (as BL mod), since there isn't a paycheque you are cutting yourself off from. It is, I am sure, just as degrading to get fired.
I am not a prize. In fact, I can be and, on many occasions, have been a downright asshole. This isn't exactly BlueChristianLight.nu, so hopefully all is quickly forgiven. I have met many wonderful people in this community, some only online, some in person (too bad I couldn't make Psycle last weekend, got stuck in Wales
), all have been amazingly interesting. It is these interesting people who make the board what it is. Bluelight has been and will continue to be the premium drug awareness communitie on the web. It has also become one of the better discussion boards online. That is in no small part due to the excellent work of some great moderators, many of whom are no longer moderators. I was both surprised and saddened to see some of them go, they brought so much to their respective forums. Some of them are voicing their opinions here and I am happy to see that. In my experience, mods have far more direct contact with a message board's member base than admins do. It would be fair to say then that mods have a more direct influence on the mood of the general population than admins do. If we take the average tone of the posts in this thread, it would be safe to conclude that they are extremely dissatisfied with their chief admin's running of the community, be it his people skills or his general administrative (not technical) abilities. That being the case, why not take this to the staff room, as previously suggested, and hold an untainted vote. Bottom line is - a fun to visit community is a happily run community. Bottom line - there are several very serious issues that need to be resloved here, posting quotas are the last of anyone's worries. Bottom line - if the chief financier of the community has to come forward and reason (almost plead) with the current chief admin in public to wake up and smell the coffee, ladies and gentlemen - we have a problem.
I think I've laid down enough random text. I'll go catch a nap now before my flight back home. I sincerely hope everyone comes to an amicable agreement of sorts, behind staff room curtains. I know that Bluelight will survive, regardless. I just hope it returns to being a fun place to visit. There are plenty of Lounges out there on the web, there's only one Bluelight... for now. Let's keep it that way.
Cheers
), and other 1337 members, I thought I'd throw in my 2 rusty cents all the same. I haven't been here as long as some, but long enough to see the changes. Whatever ancillary benefits these changes were meant to bring about, the results have been a failing grade. The change was so obvious too, like a line drawn in the sand. One day there were quality, helpful posts, the next day the board turned into spam central. The worst part was that a good portion of these "new and improved" posts were being started by mods. I've never seen mods start so many threads in my life, on any forum on the web.
I must have learnt the internet backasswards, but I had always thought that a moderator's primary responsibility was to moderate posts. In a community as large as BL, a mod should not have the time to start as many threads as has been happening (quota driven). Forums are created to satisfy an increased member-, not mod, generated interest in a new subject matter. If interest in an existing subject matter drops off and post activity in that forum ceases for an extended duration, then it should not fall on the moderator(s) of that forum to keep it alive, it should fall on the admin crew to review the focus of that forum, maybe change its spectrum or title based on member post subject matter. The public decides what they want to talk about, not the moderators, not the admins. The moderators are there to keep the conversations to their appropriate rooms/forums and the admins are there to ensure there are enough rooms and that all rooms are working properly.
Assigning posting quotas to moderators has never worked. Every single forum that I know of where this has been tried has either failed, or has been overhauled (read: overtaken). Bluelight is, without a doubt, at the same crossroads. Most people have thusfar looked on this situation in a political light, speaking of such concepts as democracy. I see this as more of an employer-employee relationship. The regional managers and the supervisors are all running around, trying to act busy, all in a futile effort to satisfy the whims of the CEO. Those who do not pretend well enough to be busy enough are fired. The anxiety and discontent transfers all the way down the ranks. Before you know it, the company has hardly any happy employees left, no one smiles any more, and it shows by the declining customer base. The employees stay only long enough to finance their search for another job or to start a company of their own. I am sure it is much easier to leave this job (as BL mod), since there isn't a paycheque you are cutting yourself off from. It is, I am sure, just as degrading to get fired.
I am not a prize. In fact, I can be and, on many occasions, have been a downright asshole. This isn't exactly BlueChristianLight.nu, so hopefully all is quickly forgiven. I have met many wonderful people in this community, some only online, some in person (too bad I couldn't make Psycle last weekend, got stuck in Wales
), all have been amazingly interesting. It is these interesting people who make the board what it is. Bluelight has been and will continue to be the premium drug awareness communitie on the web. It has also become one of the better discussion boards online. That is in no small part due to the excellent work of some great moderators, many of whom are no longer moderators. I was both surprised and saddened to see some of them go, they brought so much to their respective forums. Some of them are voicing their opinions here and I am happy to see that. In my experience, mods have far more direct contact with a message board's member base than admins do. It would be fair to say then that mods have a more direct influence on the mood of the general population than admins do. If we take the average tone of the posts in this thread, it would be safe to conclude that they are extremely dissatisfied with their chief admin's running of the community, be it his people skills or his general administrative (not technical) abilities. That being the case, why not take this to the staff room, as previously suggested, and hold an untainted vote. Bottom line is - a fun to visit community is a happily run community. Bottom line - there are several very serious issues that need to be resloved here, posting quotas are the last of anyone's worries. Bottom line - if the chief financier of the community has to come forward and reason (almost plead) with the current chief admin in public to wake up and smell the coffee, ladies and gentlemen - we have a problem. I think I've laid down enough random text. I'll go catch a nap now before my flight back home. I sincerely hope everyone comes to an amicable agreement of sorts, behind staff room curtains. I know that Bluelight will survive, regardless. I just hope it returns to being a fun place to visit. There are plenty of Lounges out there on the web, there's only one Bluelight... for now. Let's keep it that way.
Cheers
spork
Bluelight Crew
DigitalDuality said:
I agree with this.
Look what happened in EDD when Catch wanted to just look at numbers and not hear people out.
rock_lobster
Bluelighter
I wasn't for one moment suggesting that the format becomes either a discussion or a poll, but rather a con-currently run poll to invite broader input.
The EDD thread has showen, like this one, that if someone feels strongly enough about the subject they will reply with an opinion.
Is an additional tool to gauge peoples feelings on the matter not a beneficial one?
The EDD thread has showen, like this one, that if someone feels strongly enough about the subject they will reply with an opinion.
Is an additional tool to gauge peoples feelings on the matter not a beneficial one?
starlightgemini
Bluelighter
rock_lobster said:If people are 'allowed' to voice their opinions/distain in the richness of their posts, then why not with a simple black & white poll ?
What do the moderators of Second Opinion feel? (he says contensiously
I noticed his comment (as there was a thread about it in the staff forum) about another poll, and how he will be looking at numbers and not comments. So by NOT creating a poll.. we are essentially not even giving him the chance to look at the numbers. At least not in black and white. If his concern is in fact numbers (as several people have stated) then by leaving it as discussion only, he must read through the posts to get a feel of the "votes" for and against him.
I think I'd rather see everyone justify their feelings in words as compared to simply voting yes/no. I really can't say it any better than Digital Duality already expressed:
So, my vote for making a poll is no. We'll see how my wonderful better half (aka Chrissie
) feels.
mariacallas
Bluelight Crew
silverwheel said:
ABSOFUCKINLUTELY.
And this is a very good thread...I read each and every post and have come to a better understanding and appreciation for the community.
randycaver
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Messages
- 21,709
Finder said:
ditto
this has been an interesting thread..
I can only hope the admin pay as much attention to it as everybody else has, it deserves that much at least
Blowmonkey
Bluelight Crew
tathra said:Sebastian's Ghost was a perfect example of this, sticking around after his initial demotion (admin down to supermod) instead of saying "fuckitall" and focussing purely on Erowid.org and everywhere else he is a huge contributer, but he was eventually removed from all of his positions, which shows just how much the administration cares about the contributions of their staff
that was one of teh biggest tragedies of these incidents, in my eyes.
No, please, don't get your panties up in a bunch.. I would've done exactly the same thing, sorry. S_G just wasn't around anymore, if someone doesn't post more as ~50 posts in the course of a year, then removing him/her from "the powers" is only logical..
Maybe I just see it differently, but I wouldn't mind removing someone who abandons BL and the responsibilities that come looking with the position they have. That's essentially what happened to S_G, if you've got a different exaplanation, tell me all about it.
Btw, same with Jase. I saw a post complaining about his removal, but shit.. The guy hasn't been around since August 03' or so..
DigitalDuality
Bluelighter
I don't know about Jase or S_G, but i do know there have been people in mod position (or higher) that deserved to be removed due to participation.
When i modded Thoughts and Awareness, nads was mod and had been missing for 6 months. Upon a search i realized he posted in the vacation thread 6 months previously saying he would only be gone for a few weeks.
As far as i know to this day, the guy could be dead.. AFAIK, he hasn't returned to bluelight since. And if so, he's posted so few times it wouldn't warrant the responsiblities that it takes to be a mod. He was removed, he is intelligent, and a quality poster..but he didn't hold up his end.
I don't think there needs to be a post quota by any means. I think people that run the site can eye ball it and set very loose parameters. If you abandon your position by not posting in the forum you mod at all in one month, 2 months or more.. come on. YOu're not doing the forum any favors. Participation in a forum by helping shape the flow of the forum through posts, through "moderating" (editing, CLAWS, etc..) are all quite important.
My problem is that there's been absolutely no regard for quality. The focus shifted about the time i came on board to quantity only. That to me is bullshit. We can't just say quality rules 150% over quantity, if you don't participate enough you're quality posts don't mean shit from the standpoint of being a moderator. I just don't think it should be anywhere near as strict and as "quota" based so to speak. There's a balance.. and i think common sense should be able to guide us. Hopefully if some form of democratic system was setup and it became a group decision to some degree.. it may be fallible, but i think it would be more fair more often.
When i modded Thoughts and Awareness, nads was mod and had been missing for 6 months. Upon a search i realized he posted in the vacation thread 6 months previously saying he would only be gone for a few weeks.
As far as i know to this day, the guy could be dead.. AFAIK, he hasn't returned to bluelight since. And if so, he's posted so few times it wouldn't warrant the responsiblities that it takes to be a mod. He was removed, he is intelligent, and a quality poster..but he didn't hold up his end.
I don't think there needs to be a post quota by any means. I think people that run the site can eye ball it and set very loose parameters. If you abandon your position by not posting in the forum you mod at all in one month, 2 months or more.. come on. YOu're not doing the forum any favors. Participation in a forum by helping shape the flow of the forum through posts, through "moderating" (editing, CLAWS, etc..) are all quite important.
My problem is that there's been absolutely no regard for quality. The focus shifted about the time i came on board to quantity only. That to me is bullshit. We can't just say quality rules 150% over quantity, if you don't participate enough you're quality posts don't mean shit from the standpoint of being a moderator. I just don't think it should be anywhere near as strict and as "quota" based so to speak. There's a balance.. and i think common sense should be able to guide us. Hopefully if some form of democratic system was setup and it became a group decision to some degree.. it may be fallible, but i think it would be more fair more often.
DigitalDuality
Bluelighter
starlightgemini said:
to elaborate, if you don't mind.. it's not a black/white issue anyways. Our complaints about Catch are not consistent. There's a general consensus on certain issues, others have particular issues. Some are asking for him to step down, others for him to change. There's some Admin who haven't posted her, that i'm pretty sure are in 100% favor of Catch.
When it comes to solutions, if you haven't noticed alot of good options have been presented. But bottom line is.. "alot of options". There's no consensus on what should be done if Catch "changes" or steps down.
So a poll would be leaving out alot of important information, frankly because alot of it is a gray area, not black/white. If we created a poll "Should Catch step down?" Yes or No. You're pretty much going to run into the same systematic errors with Catch's poll in EDD, it's not going to take everyone into consideration. There's going to be alot of people who have different solutions and they won't be presented with an option.
Finder
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2000
- Messages
- 32,361
I don't particularly agree with the post quotas being so strictly enforced, but the bottom line is you shouldn't be able to disappear for two, three, four, five, six, however many months and expect to come back to your staff position no questions asked.
The whole point of moderating a forum is to actively participate.
Also, I think a poll is a really stupid idea.
The whole point of moderating a forum is to actively participate.
Also, I think a poll is a really stupid idea.
tathra
bluelighter
according to what Catch told me at the time, i was the first to move to have a mod removed due to total inactivity, so i personally know of the troubles of a mod not being around and needing to be replaced. however, taht too was a situation where he was gone for months on end and never once communicated with us about his abscence
with regards to the S_G situation, i know he was extremely busy with rl situations during the tiem of his total removal, and since i was no longer staff, i dont know if he was communicatign that (but i'm rather sure he was). regardless, its not my job to defend him, hopefully i'll catch him online soon and link him here
with regards to the S_G situation, i know he was extremely busy with rl situations during the tiem of his total removal, and since i was no longer staff, i dont know if he was communicatign that (but i'm rather sure he was). regardless, its not my job to defend him, hopefully i'll catch him online soon and link him here