Sick and Tired of AA/NA

The study that I read about found that 5% of people succeed in AA, and 5% of people had a natural remission of their addiction without any treatment. So, at least statistically, AA may not offer any benefit over no treatment at all.

i believe this sincerely, and in fact, AA backs it up themselves! they tell you that nobody will quit until they're ready to quit, which is completely true.

look around an NA/AA room and see what people are the most succesful. these are often one of two:

A) parents with toddlers who realized they're gonna fuck up their kid's lives
or
B) people who have escalating health AND financial problems due to their use/abuse

they're reasons for quitting have little to do with how fucking awesome and useful NA/AA is. it has to do with the fact that they logically looked at their lives, realized they were fucking shit up like crazy, and decided they were done with it. all AA did was give them an environment with a couple of other people in the same boat where they can get positive and negative reinforcement towards their decision. they quit because they WANTED to, not because of any mystical bill wilson bullshit. 8) that's obvious, ain't it??

sorry for the double-post, i just have quite a bit to say on this topic.
 
lilfoot said:
my suggestion is to keep an open mind, but maintain your boundaries.
That has been some of my primary advice as well. People coming up and asking for your number and giving you theirs and acting like "the fellowship" has now made you all intimate friends for all time or until someone relapse, it all is way too much too quick imo.

Also the constant prophesy that people who leave these rooms-jail, institutions & death- constant stories of doom & gloom- it can be a real psychic drain. I also wouldn't let other people prescribe how many meetings you have to go to, which meetings you need to go to, where you should & shouldn't work, who you should use as a Doctor, who you can date & when you can start dating, etc I have heard people pushing things like that on people at meetings and worse.

You really have to fend some people off & even tell them to back off in 12 step groups at times. Some of them seem to have profoundly poor boundaries & major control issues.
 
That has been some of my primary advice as well. People coming up and asking for your number and giving you theirs and acting like "the fellowship" has now made you all intimate friends for all time or until someone relapse, it all is way too much too quick imo.

Also the constant prophesy that people who leave these rooms-jail, institutions & death- constant stories of doom & gloom- it can be a real psychic drain. I also wouldn't let other people prescribe how many meetings you have to go to, which meetings you need to go to, where you should & shouldn't work, who you should use as a Doctor, who you can date & when you can start dating, etc I have heard people pushing things like that on people at meetings and worse.

You really have to fend some people off & even tell them to back off in 12 step groups at times. Some of them seem to have profoundly poor boundaries & major control issues.

Word. I'm court ordered to go. Some of these guys seem to lack any sense of control when talking to people and push the cult mentality onto others. It's kind of freaky. I pay very close attention to the indoctrination attempts. I strictly use logic, and don't let myself get sucked into the group mentality. I wouldn't fuck around. It tries to break you down emotionally and put you in a group thinking mode where you are powerless w/o it. It basically puts emphasis on substances as your #1 problem in life. It is a cult mentality and imo, immoral to force upon someone.
 
Evident in their 2% success rate, right?
i never got this. 2% of who? of everyone who has ever been to a meeting? where do they even get that number? its an anon. program so i dont know how ppl get that %. alot of ppl go to meetings who are court ordered. they do not want to get clean. its not fair to add them into this %.

Their agenda is to primarily to maintain their position as the "accepted" or "only effective" method, while they are neither.

while i have not been in the program long, they do not say that their method is the only way. they say if an addict has tried everything else in their life and it did not work, then they are willing to show the newcomer a new way that has worked for them.

courts, lawyers, etc. generally financially benefit maintaining the image that the 12-step programs are infallible and without rival.

how do courts,lawyers, etc. financially benefit from ordering ppl to go to AA/NA meetings? what they become productive membes of society that pay taxes and dont burden tax payers with their court/ imprisonment cost?

also what other methods are proven succesful? where ppl the majority of the ppl have multiple years clean of all substances.

5. Having or influenced by partisan interests: The court should never become a political institution.
6. Based on or motivated by partisan or self-serving objectives: a purely political decision.

? again i dont understand how this applies

Quote:
AA nor NA is not affiliated with any other outsie organization.

Excepts courts, prisons, the recovery industry.... ad nauseam.

and again...

if i come off as an asshole, im sorry. i just dont get how u say they are affiliated.

the majority of people at the probably 500+ NA meetings i've attended in my life are sick, stupid, cruel and pathetic fuckers. sorry, but that's the truth. that goes for newcomers and oldtimers alike. i know because i was one of them! there are some very wise people in those rooms, and some very loving and honest and endearing folks too, but they're so few and far in between, it's barely worth the hassle

ahh yes i see this also but i try to avoid those kinds of ppl. i try to hang around the positive ppl:).
 
If it works for you, fantastic. Everything I've read (someone gave me the Big Book 15 years ago) and heard at meetings is that the 12-step method is the sole road to salvation.

I have a policy not to argue with Fundamentalists. It is like playing chess with a pigeon. Your opponent knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to the flock claiming victory.

I've only been to a couple of AA meetings; seemed to me everyone was trying to top one another with stories of what extraordinarily flamboyant fuck-ups they were way back when; the old timers' favorite line was "boy, I've spilled more booze than you've drunk.

Very impressive. 8)
 
junctionalfunkie said:
I have a policy not to argue with Fundamentalists. It is like playing chess with a pigeon. Your opponent knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to the flock claiming victory.
Is that quote yours JF? It is wonderful :)
 
That anti 12 step link is pretty funny, they guy has some serious beef with the method and some of it seems pretty plausible. Here is something that made me laugh:

This whole "recovery movement" is just such a bizarre parade of crazies, lunatics, and losers. When will it ever end?

(And a little voice in my head says, "What else could you expect? They hire from within. The staff are all former patients. The crazies recruit the crazies. The inmates really are running the insane asylum.")

I personally don't have a problem with AA. If it works for you, then whatever. I personally don't go.
 
Very straight people in those, i'd use AA myself. No-one was hiding laughter or waiting interestingly when one person(this is real case) he was drinking years beard scent. But learned stealing the right way(it's not hobby, it's profit making, real reason=poorness), so capable of some. Maybe level 1(not zero), years of gear and opiates would be 5 or 6, most alcoholics would be 4, me 2.5.

They know it(problematic abuse) and estimate everyone etc, also possible to get into praying scene from there. Like this,(my case), if not getting into gear trap or can keep working television next winter we won't see him ever, if not lots of on bread for free.

I've been on NA in very deep in the Capitol city area. One chick got real bad attack seizure like this: "What the fucking!! why?!? OUT?! wannabe!"

Nothing about "that case, missy, he is severely pervert lurking creature,stay off next time, his business is lilla unclear to most..." , "is he dead in next 5 years? Yes. Is he gonna blow? No. Play fake doctor? To friends and addicts,yes." .Estimates ones ones. So he is clean? yes. Glue huffing lot? maybe. Rape prison sentence? not yet. Even wanna live? High IQ, waits for score years. Other possibilities? Not being around a lot as calculus nowadays, not as bad but worse case than N...Now we now why,case closed, he wants to score internet gear and acid,wants to live because them. Surprised once most but after not, lost all relations and GF because wifebeater etc...Let's not go deep on him...No-no, we wait for the third case. Possibly artist.

Even i could score valium script for years, so why not use quality clothes for buprenorphine?
 
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Orangutangpsychopa I don't want to seem like an ass but.... what in the hell are you talking about?
 
Humans divide into cocks and cunts.

Cunts say "no-no-no, you shouldn't have" and think secretly that hopefully can't get".

Male say what the fucking fuck-fuck? and a signature into script but which one? Risperidone ass depot? Explain yourself properly to men? Which system is best? Cunt nurses or cock authorities?

If you don't believe, 386 had a possibility for math co-processor. The new 32 ultra. Pentium is math 0.1 not 01.

Is gambling legal here? The big ape study has been done into 70s to final. They can't talk because throat. But to get into internet and pick off keyboard buttons and place 'em into mouth all at a time. Numerals could be back in a line when the debate is over, i mean _possible food_ examination. Drug rehabilition places have pleasurable high-quality food. Sanitariums have calorie diet system and ass fucking once (or every second)a week. It's the cucumbers and tomatoes in da places that ignites, not sugar tea. And stealing milk is one of the hardest? But it's hard to admit that sanitariums can have some advantages in safety issues and so-on.

But realistic health issue is instead of Omegas drink a cup of fountain water...Bicycle fooling is in fashion nowadays. Acceptance is somehow coming more common...How it then goes later? Call from operator that the line is going to get disconnected or something non-quessable without violence areas. There once was a debate on alts,some black person explaining how neurotoxic 2C-b and other 2Cs and PMA and MDMA are. Jail, hospitalisation, or cemetery. But he believed in plant teachers,isn't it even more dangerous then. I'm starting to get ready to score a bitch, even i am repulsive to most littlegirls and adults say not powerful enough.It could arrangement locally or let me be without all the same. I mean the stabile period could be interesting, and the ugly fats are like mothers but it's kind of illegal socially for some to score a hen-egg-mother. So the standards are low anyway...The point is food and getting self normalised before next xanax case comes up. It's not embarrasment but maybe not standard behavior. It could be some whose been on psychiatrics and survives. And leveling tested by giving a load of booze for weekend and then,you are totally rational, profiled them OK. Why not drivers licence, calculate joking about walking is faster? Television propaganda for adults and estimate, then calm and on medicines.

Or explain to her "Vandas KiloMan" gearwhore collection. They are in the culture, it's easy if psychic heritage to score bud all the time but maybe some-one could interest of something else than drugs. big apes or UFO possibilities are done. Some one gonna give a hint. Computers too are done and television, nice colors ehh?

Also dog can attack human if laughing idiot or jerkoff. Explain to such organism that future is unpredictable but can sniff pea and shit,maybe no female and no purpose which is feeling like a prisonment. If scoring a HQ dog,how to they fuck more breed? A very low-income job where they say to me "wanna try rape some-one?" it was the female boss. Some moronised explained internet isn't for personal diary. What's his secret joy? Not 70% but 89% it's codeine.

But if rational or as opposite humorous way to explain what type of circus clown he/she are,and try to understand individuality or mating processes,it's impossible. My mind started on when i was 4 or just about 5 years old. It's normal and my rubber mouse had a pink ear that i sucked so that there was almost non coloring on the ear. Try to ask who the fuck is the long and explain, now we chat about magasines.

Moe with moes bar interests more than barney. Depression since 6 year old. Can play martyr and socialise. Larry the magician has healthy brains, cylinder hat and no financial depressions. Some matters could be deep how a person can seizure but no, and nothing changes for no-one, just silencing so others have less proof material.

I end my case here for this time. On said they didn't care about his 100bills,one took 100 panacods(500mg paracetamol/30mg codeine),one was glue huffer female abused by ex, now in praying cliques, one the beard scent. Then the big brothers heroin non-abuse and many-many others. PS. those who dunno what for can't get temazepam script for abuse can't come. It can be explained this way, i had to score the hash and excite others, it's possible they wouldn't try, but would. And then teasing, ooh-noo god-damn. "Wheres my grass? Fuck damn, year after year...it's little bit illegal area to complain etc etc.

Some of the individuals are more frustrated, almost totally raged by all possible shit. It can be 1.57Euros a day cheat-out or viruses in the backbone. Some do the "evening sniff-around" with TV or genitals...Or all money gone repeated and loosening of mind without social hassle. The more cornish the more better stay. Avoid the idea of "pearly trash" or "massive wood" and do what? Play a home-faggot to some couple is my favorites, safe as hell. It's not intending to bad but things start to get on the ridiculous side more and more and more if social. Clothes aren't plain comfort, less tough ideas,more and more common getting to start a eat with others, not alone,used to them etc. One interest could be what happens to those mental sick who gets into wherever if not euthanised? They contact or beat some or plain not paying rent? Social office contacts once a year or what?

t's very possible that it's for breaking development, it could be unstandable the plain "what things are? new religion,not i see clear now or time of the month but it's little less saturated than southwest, the colour maps with these tubes", Iff locked up in the sanitarium, then needs the panacods the other person and drives a taxi like used to be. Then after cleaning madness it's that you know that he thinks one of the possibles, 15minute mood, "in the mood", why not. so it realisticly is a dayjob society with discipline? And in the internet Larrys erowid world. Those the colors ehh? Maybe it's need to be mentioned,FOAF wanted try LSD 2001 january, slipped 6? Still talkative. And lilla bit down here,the colour buttons...Larry is very interested...tries on and on...? If time limits are plain monthly cost then maybe.Quess what the crackpot claimed on drunk? He moves to USA when gets parole over...Not working but from the side, the certain person was 2 times in Amsterdam...If everything is Twatting capitalistic no nonsensus and a leaflet of risperidone versus ritalin, for kids, 1)suicide after 40years when mother bans, 2) suicide after 40years because meth. They just have too many and time limit is clear so...? Larry is very american and co-operative, he hasn't heritage there...But the bastard claims he pre-sees attackers and buys only one-way ticket from bulgaria...Why the hell it's emporium state building???

it won't trash much, good things have to be there, 305million people and cops keeping discipline so...the blacks can be aggressive especially downtown and the yellows high but ignorant morals...Do they have cumbuckets called spooky? Yeast booze canister so the periods start autumn...No, i am serious,do they return to home country if real alcohol problem and goes nuts and steals?

can swear it help a shit, plain lie detectors for under something etc isn't interesting but button count "my husband has a large cock?" Or plain restricted all that way, no cellphones allowed? It could be first small riot defence firm...Mostly plain twisted things been, much less normal behavior than could think, if they proceed that way,straight?

It's illegal to threaten politicians in internet? Does it count if some-one wants to(not for any bad or serious) explain sexual and sadistic? Twatting: is it one or two(2) million un-working in Finland? There anyway is lilla history from medievals that can stay somewhat and produce fancy color toys? And the reason for in the 70s, to move Sweden was?

Is it clear in outbroad countries that nothing works and results are little? Is it later better if, also a phonebook but nothing is wrong if behaves? Are they(docs) aware that they(they) have to consentrate themselves? It's scary in all that area...Crop calculus or new potatoes?

FOM came by and had the new toy,possible for the winter. Parents could be excellent phone-moneybegging. It's suspected to be a red hair bitches that wanna partisipate to social network. It's important to be humble to them. The possible IBM didn't bring the paper or 6 socks. His mind is that shower handle is a dildo. It's not necessary that all is evil, buy own.
 
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I find AA funny, in a pathetic kind of way. This woman in a wheel-chair was sitting in class moaning because she had two broken legs and refused to take pain meds. Then this woman in back was upset that she took pain meds during detox. It was this other guys 21st birthday and everyone went around, wishing him happy 21st. Then this guy was getting pissed because he is trying to convince everone that if they drink they WILL test positive for heroin. Someone living their life based on science (logic) does not fare well in this place. If you believe that everyone is unique based on a lot of factors, instead of simply saying everyone in AA is this, everyone is that, it is like disturbing a hornets nest -- they will attack.
 
If you dont want to go to AA/NA meetings, complain to the courts and not to us about AA/NA. AA/NA allows anybody to attend who wants to. If you dont want to go, then dont go. Take it up with the courts. They are the ones making you go to AA/NA. Dont expect AA/NA to change because you dont like the court forcing you to attend.
 
"my suggestion is to keep an open mind, but maintain your boundaries."

Excellent idea. I went to AA for 2 years. I was a meth addict, but I didn't like NA because they seemed to focus on the past, whereas AA focused on the future. I listened a lot. Which I didn't do easily. And I don't mean, sat silently until I was allowed to talk, but actually listened. And I tried to take one thing away from each meeting. I've been clean from meth for 5 years now (on Sept. 1), but I stopped going to AA, and started drinking again. I never had a problem with alcohol, and I don't think I should have to never drink again. I've been fine drinking socially, but it is not in line with AA, so I stopped going. I would have stopped going anyway. I went to get support, and to pass time, and to any damn thing to keep from doing meth. I really wanted to be clean, I wanted to get a life. And if I drank during that first couple of years? I probably would have done meth again. But I stopped going because I wanted a life like the rest of the world, not one that stood me apart, that made me dependant on something else. And after too long, AA does that. In my opinion.

AA has some really good points, just use judgement. And please, this 2% crap. There has never been a study, because AA is anonymous, so let it go. You can hate on it, but use your logic. :)
 
If you dont want to go to AA/NA meetings, complain to the courts and not to us about AA/NA. AA/NA allows anybody to attend who wants to. If you dont want to go, then dont go. Take it up with the courts. They are the ones making you go to AA/NA. Dont expect AA/NA to change because you dont like the court forcing you to attend.

If you complain the court may think you are in denial, and actually want you to take more until you are a fully conditioned "TRUE BELIEVER" in the mysticism of AA.
 
"my suggestion is to keep an open mind, but maintain your boundaries."

AA has some really good points, just use judgement. And please, this 2% crap. There has never been a study, because AA is anonymous, so let it go. You can hate on it, but use your logic. :)

There have been several studies that compared groups receiving different forms of treatment, such as AA, vs. no treatment. Of course nobody is going to be collecting data on every single AA member, that's not possible. You can read about these studies at the following link if you are interested:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
 
If you dont want to go to AA/NA meetings, complain to the courts and not to us about AA/NA. AA/NA allows anybody to attend who wants to. If you dont want to go, then dont go. Take it up with the courts. They are the ones making you go to AA/NA. Dont expect AA/NA to change because you dont like the court forcing you to attend.

Yes -yes. Possibly cucumbers. And very hidden secret that Adolf Goerilla had 6 pointy bananas but we have 5. The food strike starts to be over. Most know it's possible that christians give some food if not polite but very,very consentrated. At lest once. And it's possible to buy smoke too with the travel. What if they don't extinct but gives statements like ". And explains please don't hurt me. One mystery is that everything isn't have to be evil. Analyses that people get more happy if poorness isn't everyday problem, even the laziest hippies know food smells good and normal. If so, what the hell are Eldorado franske Baguetter? I have a picture now, but it takes 4 days to go on.
 
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Just got out of NA. Now I'm seeing people in AA/NA all over town, saying "what's up". It's cool and all, but wtf, I want to forget about AA/NA once I'm out of the damn class... not take it with me to different cities like it's some kind of prize to be in AA/NA. Also doesn't help if you want to score.

What I get out of AA/NA is that there are the court-ordered people that basically go because they HAVE TOO. They sit there talking about how they CHOOSE to get high, in their opinion (and MINE!) it's not a disease. Then there are the people that REALLY HAVE A PROBLEM. They basically come in and let everyone know how messed up their life is, blah blah blah.
 
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