Should we go to war with Iraq?

[-=nath=-]

PS do you really regard the US as a democratic system? Think it bears more resemblance to a dictatorship (the majority of citizens didn't vote for bush, he made it in via dodgy court processes.. the president has more power than all the underlying senate etc etc)

Originally posted by digital_yoda:
In the current case our government is justifying it in spite of popular consensus, not exactly how democracy is meant to work. And if our democracy doesn't work on such a fundamental question - how can we expect it to work at all.

 

[Raving Loony]

^^ Nods.
* US troops getting valuable experience outside a major war.
* Patriotically government ramblings to try and inspire Americans all over the globe.
[ 22 January 2003: Message edited by: Raving Loony ]

 

[jakoz]

The top 11 lies about Iraq - very interesting read. For those that don't know, the protests (please correct me if I'm wrong) take place on the first day of bombing.
*******
Bush is a fucking lunatic. He will get reelected on the back of this, and it terrifies me to think where the world will be by the end of his next term - look at the fuckups he's caused already.
Hopefully someone will assassinate him before then - and that is realistically the best option. One life lost versus the tens of thousands (conservatively) that will be lost otherwise... seems like a fair trade.
One thing's for sure... if a couple years down the track, the absolute worst case scenario happens, I'm fucked if I'm going to fight for him. Think I'll sit that one out.
The scary thing about watching him is that he's convinced he's a winner. He has no doubt he's doing the right thing. And the righteous are fucking dangerous.

 

[neverwas]

Originally posted by Jakoz:
Bush is a fucking lunatic. He will get reelected on the back of this, and it terrifies me to think where the world will be by the end of his next term - look at the fuckups he's caused already.
Hopefully someone will assassinate him before then - and that is realistically the best option. One life lost versus the tens of thousands (conservatively) that will be lost otherwise... seems like a fair trade.
^^^^i totally agree with you there.
it really scares me as to the amount of distruction and terror that is being held in Iraq and its country. By going to war with them isnt it only un locking the doors to that terror and distruction? i for one dont want to be around when all hell breaks loose.
having been born in another country other than Australia i dont have to vote in elections and stuff but indeed i am priviledged to be living here. i love what this country stands for. its morales and values. but let me assure you...IMO at the next election if P.M John Howard sends the troops to Iraq to go to war...I FOR ONE WOULD NOT BE VOTING HIM BACK IN...its like sending the little lambs to slaughter...
[ 22 January 2003: Message edited by: *starfalls69* ]

 

[haste]

^^^^
I don't think this is a matter of who's Prime Minister, but more the fact that we are firmly wedged between the US's arse cheeks - I think this is what governs what Australian policy is.

 

[killarava2day]

Obviously if there wasn't WWI, there wouldn't have been the problem. You just can't press the undo button or restore history from a backup tape. It's done, there's a problem, deal with it. The decision of war in 1939 was invaribly the right one. If you were Richard Chemberlain in 1939, what would you have done after he rolled Poland after repeatedly giving his word he wouldn't?
If I was Richard Chamberlain in 1939 I would probably be a toddler in the US with little care as to what was going on in Europe... now if i were Neville Chamberlain, now that would be another matter... (Richard Chamberlain is an actor )
Yeah, you can't undo history, but you can look at the consequences of past actions and draw certain conclusion's, that was the only point I was trying to make. Violence always leads to more violence: WW1=WW2, WW2=korean war, WW2=vietnam war, vietnam war=cambodian war, CIA war in Afghanistan=taliban, WW1=iraq's invasion of kuwait, Gulf war=Sept. 11 etc. etc. etc.
This turned up on the CE&P forum, its relevant and pretty humourous :D Iraq war flash game

 

[Raving Loony]

^ Oops.
Does war incites further wars? Regretably. I would hate to have thought what reality we'd be facing if Hitler was given the freedom he desired in Europe.

 

[-=nath=-]

Anyone think that the god-knows-how-many billion spent on playing military chess and dropping bombs on random people would be better spent on something which furthers the cause of mankind?
Hell: put that money and energy into alternative power sources, better medical technology or even space exploration.. at least something is achieved!
You can buy a lot of clean water, solar cells, recycling plants, houses for poor, books for schools, better public transport, polution filters (for factories) etc with that money I would think... and the good part is noone has to get killed!

 

[plazma]

I am at a bit of a loss as to where to start.
We should NOT go to war with Iraq!
They tell us that we're going to war, without the support of the United Nations, because Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and they might use them. The USA gave Saddam Hussein these weapons of mass desctruction, namely biological and chemical warfare agents, over the decade from the early 1980s right up until the weeks before the Kuwait invasion. They were given to Saddam on the condition that he use them to maintain power in his own country, and to fight the Iranian mullahs.
Bush knows he has them, because Ronald Reagan, and later, George Bush Snr, gave them to Saddam.
Saddam should be removed because he has attacked his neighbours before.
This is true, however the only times that he has done so, is because the USA has either actively sought him to do so, in the case of Iran, where they armed and trained his army, gave him Chemical and Biological warfare agents, as well as satellite reconnassance information etc.
In the case of Kuwait, right up until the international condemnation of the invasion, the USA had been telling the B'aath Party Regime (Saddam's party) that the USA had no interest in interfering with Arab affairs, and would not act.
However they did, and invaded etc, this makes them, in my view, far more untrustworthy than Saddam Hussein.
Saddam Hussein has used WMD's against his own people.
The Kurds, in the north of Iraq, have indeed been gassed, and slaughtered at a rate which many would consider absolutely horrendous. However, Saddam had, up until the gulf war, been given sanction by the USA (hardly the most equal defender of human rights) to do whatever was necessary to maintain power, up to and including gassing thousands of Kurds.
The benevolent Regime in Turkey, has, and continues to commit the same kinds of acts of genocide and inequality towards the Kurds, however the USA does not condemn Turkey simply because they have substantial interests in Turkey, such as persuading the Turks to give them a base to launch an attack on Iraq.
Effectively the USA is going to war with Iraq because Iraq has, roughly equal with Saudi Arabia, a huge percentage of the worlds untapped oil reserves, the USA needs this oil in order to keep their economy functioning.
We should not go to war for Oil again, how many litres of innocent blood is a barrel of crude oil for America worth?
-plaz out-

 

[jakoz]

I'm going to be increasingly suspicious of anything the weapons inspectors actually do find now. For these reasons:
1) US needs the war to save face
2) US needs UN approval to present an international front
3) The US therefore needs weapons of mass distruction to be found
4) The US has plenty of Iraqi contacts
5) The US is telling the inspectors where to go
Now think about this. Really think about it:
If the inspectors turn up nothing, the US will plant something, then tell the inspectors where it is. They have to. Theyre being increasingly backed into a corner here, and thats the obvious and easy way out.

 

[MaDMAn_Project]

No War
Violence begets violence, nothing more.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say I don’t think Saddam has any “Weapons of Mass Destruction”. Personally, I believe he has sold them off, or they have expired. Contrary to popular media, chemical & biological weapons are extremely difficult to manufacture, store and deploy. Iraq is virtually bankrupt and can barely afford to feed its people let alone fund an expensive weapons development program for limited purposes. If there are such weapons, why were they not used extensively during the Gulf War?
But Captain Bush has to get his whale…

 

[Cosmic Mist]

^^ I owuld like to see the article/site/whaever where you took that information from becaus ei find it very interesting. If you could post it up here, i would be most appreciative.
I think there is a lot of discussion going on here, and everyone is trying to give answers, but let's face it; this is a VERY complex issue, and therefore one cannot find a solution in a couple of simple lines of typing. War is bad - everyone here knows and acknowledges it (for the most part). MOst people seem to not want the war, and i am with them. If there is war and i am called to service (god forbid that conscription should be re-enstated!) then i will refuse to go and rot in gaol. Or run away, or be sick. But i will not fight a in a war when i do not believe in the cause.
BTW, what are australia's current laws regarding concription, does anyone know? or have a reliable source that i could research from?
[DISCLAIMER] I believe that war should be avoided at all costs, and do not think that Australia should be involved even if there is a war. I would like to see fair oil prices and democracy for all. Freedom and personal rights respected at all times. All of that stuff...[/DICLAIMER]

 

[JoYeNeRgiZeR]

there better not be a bloody war! cos then my boyf will have to go over there to fight! dammit and dam mr bush

 

[plazma]

I think there's a significant problem with recent ADF recruitment drives, they've all emphasised the "career" and "skills for life" aspect of the ADF, and most definately glossed over the really critical aspect of it, the fact that the purpose of the ADF is to fight, and if quite possibly die for the interests of the Australian Government.
-plaz out-

 

[MaDMAn_Project]

Cosmic Mist and anyone else who was wondering about my last post, here are a few sites that have relevant information.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/cw/produce.htm
Covers the difficulty of producing chemical and biological weapons.
http://www.i-cias.com/e.o/iraq_2.htm
Explains Iraq’s $70bn war debt and economic crisis.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_20
This is a C.I.A. site and obviously contains a lot of propaganda, but also shows no recorded use of Chemical Weapons during the Gulf War, if you scroll down far enough.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/119547.php
This last site tells why all those nasty weapons in Iraq should have "MADE IN THE USA" stamped on them.
Thanks for the interest.

 

[silvia saint]

Originally posted by plazma:
I think there's a significant problem with recent ADF recruitment drives -plaz out-
indeed.
ever thought about the placement (targeted market) of those 'join us' advertisments.
'they' suspect that a south park audience (stoned and unemployed) is so far gone that they will buy the
"mum + dad are so proud - i'm now a leader - i'm in charge of this sick s.a.m" bollocks.
sadly, it looks as though they may be right.
[ 23 January 2003: Message edited by: silvia saint ]

 

[papermate]

and that govts around the world are using the current tension to introduce laws that intrude into the lives of individuals in ways that we would not have dreamed possible even 5 years ago.
so true.

I think the more pertinent questions is whether a nation's government has the right to go to war despite the majority of it's population opposing it.
i've always beleived that in time the masses will always overcome the most powerful individual. With the changein climates into regards of information and technological controls, it seems the opposite will be more true.

PS do you really regard the US as a democratic system? Think it bears more resemblance to a dictatorship
In my opinion, democracy is subjective. It has to be by its nature. The levels or the specific liberites that you are allowed within a democracy are dictated by the majority. And as many posts here imply and clearly state, the majority can more often than not be mis-informed, or purposely informed to for opinions/values/ideals.
But then again, thats life. Fortunately or unfortunately, i have made a concious decision, not to involve myself in issues which do not affect me directly. This is not to say i do not have opinions obviously.

 

[DQ]

this war on Iraq is a dirty american oil war, it has nothing to do with democracy or weapons. there are plenty of dictatorships and "unsavoury" regimes around the world that the US couldn't give a fuck about. Iraq are being singled out because they're sitting on a rich oil supply and the yanks need oil to power their 13.6 litre V16 Cadillacs and maintain their "way of life". removing Saddam would also calm the other OPEC nations in the region, making them friendlier to US interests.
if the US were serious about eradicating WMD's, they'd have cracked the shits at half of the northern hemisphere. that's beside the point that the US developed those very weapons, and supplied Saddam with them during the Iran/Iraq war in the 1980's.
this war is about US wielding power in the middle east to protect its own interests, namely access to oil resources. it has nothing to do with Australia, the "australian values" or protecting freedom and democracy. we have no place in this war, and if australian troops are committed (ESPECIALLY without UN request) then i'll be really fucking pissed off!
Madman_project: will Bush meet the same fate as Ahab? will his hunt bring about his undoing? hopefully the rest of the world doesn't get sucked down with him...

 

[sydkiwi]

if the un inspecters really wanna find weapons of mass destruction they should try looking on the otherside of the planet from iraq like the us for instance.
I dont support war. its not about suddams "weapons of mass destruction" its about control of the worlds oil supply and nothing more.
besides who put the taliban, suddam hussain etc in power in the first place?

 

[LiquidMethod]

"I think we SHOULD go to war with Iraq."
-Dubya Boosh.