Should Ecstasy be legal?

[Care]

I don't believe your first point is proven, nor do I accept that the physical damage done by MDMA during comparable usage to alcohol is greater ... the reverse is true, IMO.

Its not proven beause the government does not allow research on MDMA. However many people I know in RL, and on this forum, report depression, memory problems, brain zaps, seizures, decreased verbal skills, sleep paralysis, intense nightmares ect from ecstasy use. I can assure you, per use MDMA is far more taxing on your body than alcohol.

I think you're equating alcohol and MDMA use inappropriately here. If you compare pills to drinks one for one, you skew things beyond a reasonable point. Let's structure the comparison like this

150mg of MDMA every three months = 3 or 4 drinks on a weekend evening
150mg of MDMA once a month = 3 or 4 drinks everyday
200mg+ of MDMA every two weeks = 6 or 7 drinks daily
Gobbling pills every weekend = full blown alcoholic

So when ecstasy is legal all those people who drink and smoke EVERY DAY are going to pick up ecstasy and use it one every three months? No, just no. Many people have poor self control and additive personalities and will not use once every 3 months, or even on the weekends. They will use it like they use the drugs they are sold next to, every day, and that is not healthy at all.

Obviously, anything (and will) be abused. Also consider that, for many of us, MDMA in not addictive ... nor do we all suffer from a hangover.

Dont suffer from a hangover huh? How many times have you used MDMA? I'm guessing you could count the times on both hands. Everyone, ill repeat that, EVERYONE who has used MDMA alot suffers from the comedown and hangover. Thankfully i'm not to that point yet, but even after only a few uses, spread out over a year I can notice my high is shorter and comedown more pronounced. Maybe if you exercise extreme moderation you can avoid this, but the vast majority of people wont.

It would be awesome if we could make a law that said "If you dont have an addictive personality and can control your drug use then you're clear for MDMA consumption". Unfourtunately I dont think that would fly at all.

 

[SGHteller]

Its not proven beause the government does not allow research on MDMA. However many people I know in RL, and on this forum, report depression, memory problems, brain zaps, seizures, decreased verbal skills, sleep paralysis, intense nightmares ect from ecstasy use. I can assure you, per use MDMA is far more taxing on your body than alcohol.

The symptoms you refer to are from Ecstasy abuse. Just like liver damage, black outs, anxiety, Wernicke–Korsakoff syndrome (memory and coordination problems), etc. are symptoms of alcohol abuse. There are also MAPS studies in process (Phase II I believe) for PTSD and terminal patients ... with US Gov't approval. http://www.maps.org/mdma/

So when ecstasy is legal all those people who drink and smoke EVERY DAY are going to pick up ecstasy and use it one every three months? No, just no. Many people have poor self control and additive personalities and will not use once every 3 months, or even on the weekends. They will use it like they use the drugs they are sold next to, every day, and that is not healthy at all.

You're presenting an extreme case and presenting it as a probable norm. People with poor self control and addictive personalities will manifest that anyway .. chewing nails, popping gum, playing WoW, smoking, drinking, ad naseum. Should we make MMORPGs illegal? People have already died from them. http://news.softpedia.com/news/Two-Fanatic-World-of-Warctaft-Gamers-Have-Died-Becouse-Of-WoW-11821.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addictive_behavior

Dont suffer from a hangover huh? How many times have you used MDMA? I'm guessing you could count the times on both hands. Everyone, ill repeat that, EVERYONE who has used MDMA alot suffers from the comedown and hangover. Thankfully i'm not to that point yet, but even after only a few uses, spread out over a year I can notice my high is shorter and comedown more pronounced. Maybe if you exercise extreme moderation you can avoid this, but the vast majority of people wont.

It would be awesome if we could make a law that said "If you dont have an addictive personality and can control your drug use then you're clear for MDMA consumption". Unfourtunately I dont think that would fly at all.

You're close to correct, I have approximately twenty uses over five years. I try to practice that whole "safer drug use and harm reduction" thing. 8)

To sum up a bit, the people you wish to protect will not be protected, and everyone will face unnecessary restrictions on their liberties in the process.

 

[Care]

The symptoms you refer to are from Ecstasy abuse. Just like liver damage, black outs, anxiety, Wernicke–Korsakoff syndrome (memory and coordination problems), etc. are symptoms of alcohol abuse. There are also MAPS studies in process (Phase II I believe) for PTSD and terminal patients ... with US Gov't approval. http://www.maps.org/mdma/

Alcohol abuse = a fifth of vodka every day for 10 years, and being drunk constantly
MDMA abuse = Taking pills a few times a month
Ecstasy is far more easy to abuse than alcohol

And I am all for MDMA use in clinial settings. Read any article about MDMA in the news forum and you will see my post strongly stating that I am for MDMA use in treating PTSD.

You're presenting an extreme case and presenting it as a probable norm. People with poor self control and addictive personalities will manifest that anyway .. chewing nails, popping gum, playing WoW, smoking, drinking, ad naseum. Should we make MMORPGs illegal? People have already died from them. http://news.softpedia.com/news/Two-F...oW-11821.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addictive_behavior

People buying legal drugs every day to get high is an extreme case? Not in my book. And did you really just compare the harm done by WoW and nail biting to the harm caused by ecstasy? Here is a thought, what if those nail biting WoW players got ahold of pills and continued their addictive behavior with ecstasy? Or do you think its more likely that they would try the most amazing thing in the world and go back to being content biting their nails? No, they will continue the same addictive behavior with any hobby they pick up, because that is the way they are. WoW and nail biting are legal beause they dont cause much harm, even when taken to the extreme. People dont die from WoW, they die from not eating or drinking while playing WoW. If I starved to death because I couldnt stop praying all day would the government ban praying? Would the act of praying be attributed to my death? I certainly hope not.

You're close to correct, I have approximately twenty uses over five years. I try to practice that whole "safer drug use and harm reduction" thing.

Good on you. I try to use moderation too, and while I may have used more than you I consider myself pretty into safe use and harm redution. So dont patronize me.

To sum up a bit, the people you wish to protect will not be protected, and everyone will face unnecessary restrictions on their liberties in the process.

I hate the fact that I am argueing for the restriction of personal liberties, but I do it for a reason. I have had too many friends fuck themselves over on ecstasy because they had an unlimited supply of cheap/free pills. I used to think that would be awesome to have all the pills I wanted all the time. But the more I learn the more I thank the powers that be that I didnt end up in their shoes. Because guess what, it is much easier to talk yourself into abusing pills when you have them available all the time. If they are hard to find, then that is a built in self control mehanism. Sometimes, when i'm alone or with friends or whatever ill start to think about rolling, and get the urge to do some E. Then I think about what a pain in the ass it would be to get ahold of someone with pills, drive aross town, pay alot of money, have to test the gear and all that. I weigh the cost/benefit ratio in my head and decide to do something else instead.

Dont get me wrong, I love ecstasy, more than you know. I think all the time about how awesome an experience it would be to drop E with my family, or friends that havent done it before. I hate that I feel I have found contentment and bliss in a pill, and cant tell anyone I love about it. But then I remember all the people I know that have been hurt by ecstasy, and realize that if that ever happened to anyone I love because of me I would never forgive myself.

So to sum up my thoughts, I love ecstasy. But the fact that compared to other drugs, abuse and negitave effects come many times faster makes it too much of a danger to be introdued to the masses. The day may come when people are ready for responsible drug use, but not today.

 

[SGHteller]

I think we agree on the basic point, just a matter of degree and personal experience.

Dead and/or permanently wrecked people I know:
MDMA = 0
Tobacco = 1
Marijuana = 1
Opiates = 2
Alcohol = 6

IMO, I'd love to see rational drug laws instead of the mess we have now. Damaging yourself should be discouraged but legal (with counseling & rehab available), while damaging others should be punished fairly ... no more driving after multiple DUIs and such.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Ecstasy should not be legal, at least not like pot should be legal.

All psycoactive drugs are abused to one degree or another, and being legal makes a drug much more likely to be abused.

I'm pretty sure you need to re-think your position.

Certainly if ecstasy were legal, then there would be some number of people that would abuse the drug because of its legality (however it's difficult to speculate as to how many). I'm not denying that.

But are you saying that protecting that small handful of people's well being is worth all of the lives ruined by imprisonment of people involved in ecstasy (not to mention all of the wasted tax money)? The lives of those that have such little self control are unfortunately less valuable to our society, and they can be done away with to protect the rights of the rest of society.

Also, you mentioned that you've taken ecstasy in the past, and therefore possessed it. Because of your standpoint, ideally, you should be in prison, correct? If you disagree with this - are you saying that the law somehow shouldn't apply to YOU (and that you therefore disagree with impartial law)? You previously mentioned the impossibility of accurately predicting potential drug abusers: "It would be awesome if we could make a law that said 'If you dont have an addictive personality and can control your drug use then you're clear for MDMA consumption'. Unfourtunately I dont think that would fly at all."

Sorry, but you've totally cornered yourself.


Just some food for thought.

Peace & love,
TAC

 

[Care]

I'm pretty sure you need to re-think your position.

Hmm, ill think about it if you do.

Certainly if ecstasy were legal, then there would be some number of people that would abuse the drug because of its legality (however it's difficult to speculate as to how many). I'm not denying that.

I would speculate that the numbers would be high enough to describe it as a phenomenon, or pandemic.

But are you saying that protecting that small handful of people's well being is worth all of the lives ruined by imprisonment of people involved in ecstasy (not to mention all of the wasted tax money)? The lives of those that have such little self control are unfortunately less valuable to our society, and they can be done away with to protect the rights of the rest of society.

I am strongly against manditory minimum sentences, and the war on drugs in general. You act as if there is only 2 options, total legalization, or our current policy, which is not the case.

Also, you mentioned that you've taken ecstasy in the past, and therefore possessed it. Because of your standpoint, ideally, you should be in prison, correct? If you disagree with this - are you saying that the law somehow shouldn't apply to YOU (and that you therefore disagree with impartial law)? You previously mentioned the impossibility of accurately predicting potential drug abusers.

I currently still take ecstasy ocasionally. And no my standpoint is not that I should be in prison. If that were true, and all people that admitted to illegal drug use went to prison then most of our presidents would be in the slammer. I think it is sad that users are prosecuted the way that they are. I'm saying society is not ready to be able to buy legal MDMA as a recreational drug.

Sorry, but you've totally cornered yourself

I disagree

 

[TheAppleCore]

Hmm, ill think about it if you do..

Cool, man. I thought long and hard after reading your posts, actually - it caused me to approach the issue from a new perspective, and I changed a little bit today because of it. Even though I'm arguing against you here, I really appreciate you sharing your views.

I am strongly against manditory minimum sentences, and the war on drugs in general. You act as if there is only 2 options, total legalization, or our current policy, which is not the case.

Yes, I do admit to assuming that you fully embraced our current policies. However, if you want to effectively control ecstasy usage, you're going to have to really bring the hammer down. Statistics have shown that this is extremely difficult - tightening on drug policy rarely correlates with any decrease in usage whatsoever. Although, to play devil's advocate, you could always argue that usage is controlled by just the fact that the law is there, not the severity of the law.

You're still faced with the impartiality issue, though - do you think that you should ideally be legally punished (in any way) for what you've done and continue to do with drugs?

 

[Care]

Cool, man. I thought long and hard after reading your posts, actually - it caused me to approach the issue from a new perspective, and I changed a little bit today because of it. Even though I'm arguing against you here, I really appreciate you sharing your views.
Yes, I do admit to assuming that you fully embraced our current policies. However, if you want to effectively control ecstasy usage, you're going to have to really bring the hammer down. Statistics have shown that this is extremely difficult - tightening on drug policy rarely correlates with any decrease in usage whatsoever.
You're still faced with the impartiality issue, though - do you think that you should ideally be legally punished (in any way) for what you've done and continue to do with drugs?

Not long ago if you asked me what I thought about legalizing MDMA I would have been very confident in my opinion that it should be legal. I still think it shouldnt be shedule 1, but my experience and the experiences of my peers has shown me that complete legalization, at least right now, would be a mistake.

That being said, the day drug companies make pure MDMA for ocasional consumption by responsible people will be a great day.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Another possibility is that, if ecstasy were legalized, and a serious ecstasy abuse problem arose, that generation would serve as an "example" generation, basically. The detriments of ecstasy abuse would be firmly embedded in society's collective memory, and a new respect for the drug would be gained.

That's a more extreme scenario, and I doubt that this is how things would unfold; but still, I'd be willing to pay this as the price for the human rights.

 

[eezeekial]

the pharmaceutical companies would have a field day pushin out antidepressants

 

[indelibleface]

Just merged Flowmotion's topic in with this older one. I figured it'd be best to have one mega ecstasy legality thread going on, instead of a bunch of redundant little ones. Anyway, carry on.

 

[FlowMotion]

As much as I do agree with all that care is saying, I believe still that it is my choice whether or not I decide to use the drug.

And To cares statements: I 100 percent agree that e is more damiging to the body directly, alcohol is way more destructive through the actions of its users.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5337a2.htm#tab

IMO no drug is more dangerous then a drug that kills 35,000 people every year in the US.

If this isn't an eye opener then I don't know what is. People under the influence of alcohol are more dangerous to them selves and others than a person under the influence of e could ever be.

 

[SGHteller]

Many arguments for the legal standing of alcohol point to it's long history (references in Sumer 5500 years ago). However, we have evidence for marijuana use going just as far back in history (seeds in Romania, ca. 5500 years ago). There is no rational justification for treating these two drugs differently on that basis. As FlowMotion points out, alcohol has a huge negative impact on society.

Prohibition does not work. The US tried it for 13 years with alcohol and it led to a very similar situation that we now have with other drugs. These issues have been a social problem for centuries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_(drugs)#Early_drug_laws

We need to look at all these little yellow circles and revisit their legal standing rationally.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg

There's absolutely no logical reason why MDMA should not be a prescription drug right now.

 

[Ecstatic Ty]

Even then, as destructive as you say MDMA is when it's abused, why should that be the government's responsibility to regulate its use? There will always be people with addictive/abusive personalities, but it's their choice, and they're really only harming themselves. It's a personal decision to use a drug. Just let people make their choices.

 

[Care]

I'm not trying to argue in favor of prohibition. Prohibition doesnt work, we're all living proof of that. The idealist in me agrees with you guys that what people do with their bodies is their own buisness. However i'm also a realist, and the realist in me see's a long road to legal MDMA.

I was a supporter of Ron Paul before he dropped out of the presidential race who advoates ending prhohibition. If by some miracle Ron Paul got elected you can bet your ass he wouldnt be pushing anti prohibition laws the day he got into office. Even he understands too much damage has been done to the ameriacn psyche over the last 40 years. In elementary school every kid is required to go through the DARE program, which is basicly a bunch of propoganda and scare tactis. People have been innundated with media telling them how much damage illegal drugs do to society, largely exaggerated.

If ecstasy was legal tommorow it would totally destroy the governments credibility on the drug issue. After spending billions of dollars a year trying to "protect" us from illegal drugs all of a sudden they roll over and say, "Oh yea, just kidding, drugs arent bad". What kind of message does that send to someone who has never tried drugs? If i was a 16 year old highshool kid I would be pretty pissed off that I had abstained from drugs all this time, only to find out it was all a load of BS. I wouldnt listen to any warnings I hear about drugs from authorities, and that could be dangerous.

Alternitavely, instead of ending prohibition tommorow, what if the goverment started using all their money they spend on the drug war to re-educate people about safe drug use? Then after some of the damage of the war on drugs has been undone hopefully public opinion will become more informed. You an count on anti-drug lobbyists throwing a shit-fit for a year or two, but in time I believe it would be possible to create a society of responsible drug use.

 

[Xevro]

It should be, sadly is not, grr.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Alright, Care - you've clearly stated your position and the reasons behind it, which are reasonable. Now, out of principle, you only have two options:

1) You must stop taking ecstasy.

2) Design a test that will objectively determine your ability to safely use ecstasy, and pass it.

Unless, of course, your vision of drug law is that people whimsically decide whether or not they want the law to apply to them. Which is also a possibility.

 

[Care]

Alright, Care - you've clearly stated your position and the reasons behind it, which are reasonable. Now, out of principle, you only have two options:

1) You must stop taking ecstasy.

2) Design a test that will objectively determine your ability to safely use ecstasy, and pass it.

Unless, of course, your vision of drug law is that people whimsically decide whether or not they want the law to apply to them. Which is also a possibility.

Everyone breaks the law.

If you've driven a car in your life i'm willing to bet you've broken the law by driving over the speed limit at one point or another. Do you feel that because you broke the law the speed limit should be changed? By your reasoning we should either abolish the speed limit and let people drive however they want, or never drive again. The same thing goes for laws on the drinking age.

Do I think kids should be able to buy alcohol when they get their drivers liscence at 16?
No.
Did I drink like crazy in highschool?
Hell yes I did.

I choose to see my ecstasy use the same way. I may be breaking a law, but I can still appreciate why the law is there, to benefit society as a whole. Even though I would love everyone to be able to experiance the magic of ecstasy, I believe that for many people it would take an extremely harsh toll.

I say this because of the way I hear people talk about ecstasy. Alot of people think of it as the most exiting thing they do, but are limited in their use by high prices, and availability of good pills. Take away that buffer, and I bet alot of people who had previously only been moderate users get lured into overindulgeing.

And the law does apply to me. With my use I run the risk of being caught and facing the consiquences of that. For me, right now, that is an acceptable risk.

Not that there arent things I'd like to see changed, the harsh sentences against drug offenders are totally out of control. I'd also like to see it used in clinical settings to help people with PTSD or other problems. But total legalization tommorow as a recreational drug along side cigarettes and alcohol? Sorry, but I just cant see that being a positive thing.

 

[мDма]

I sure wish it was, but yeah, decriminalization of a drug has its pros and cons.

 

[uppofusa]

yes, tax them, make them cleaner, people are going to do them anyways. If people want rouse them, let them.