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"Serotonin levels causing depression" bullshit

Errm, correct me if you know better, but if we use MDMA, are we not causing a real chemical imbalance? or are you not talking about low serotonin causing depression as a side effect of MDMA usage?
 
As a man of science I urge you to be logical and pay attention to the very real observations in front of your face. We may not have it all figured out in black and white but just look at the kids who rolled too much. Being E-tarded is no fun so dont take a lack of explanation as a lack of phenomenon.
 
Lower levels of serotonin are correlated with depression, and drugs that lower levels of serotonin sometimes cause depression in individuals who are otherwise not depressed.
 
Carsick said:
Errm, correct me if you know better, but if we use MDMA, are we not causing a real chemical imbalance? or are you not talking about low serotonin causing depression as a side effect of MDMA usage?
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Just questioning the theory that "low serotonin causes depression". It's something you hear a lot of in relation to MDMA and it was surprising to me to find out there's absolutely no evidence for it whatsoever.

Lower levels of serotonin are correlated with depression

No they arn't. Check out the articles above.
 
I don't think that side-effects are necessarily due to lower levels of MDMA, but at least due to desensitivation of serotonin receptors. As it is the case with all psychoactive drugs and the receptors they work on.

On the other hand, I feel there is a strong connection between SSRI withdrawal (=> lower serotonin levels) and MDMA abuse symptoms.
Head zaps, sleep problems/paralysis, bad memory, anxiety, depression,
it all seems to be connected strongly with SSRI's.
 
I read those articles in a hurry cos I had a deadline this afternoon, but where was MDMA mentioned? I thought the articles (which I've seen before) were talking about normal clinical depression and how low serotonin levels are not necessarily the cause.
From what I've read, and if this discussion continues I'll dig out sources, serotonin depletion caused by the use of, for example, MDMA is linked to depression, anxiety, memory disorders, etc.
 
Sprinklervibes said:
Head zaps, sleep problems/paralysis, bad memory, anxiety, depression
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Had all of them from doing too much pills so I find it hard to believe there is no link as I have experienced them for myself.
 
ok ismene thats cool that you have studies and tests to prove your point but it doesnt change the fact that we, the MDMA users, know that it causes depression anxiety ECT.


and sprinklervibes- i agree with you one hundred percent. i have gone through SSRI withdrawl and MDMA abuse symptoms, and they are one in the same. after taking zoloft for a litle over a year, and coming off of it I had extreme symptoms of what i like to call brain shocks, or head zaps as you were saying. i get the same symptoms after short term E abuse, like too many pills in a night or 2 nights in a row.
 
Ismene said:
Here's some reading:

http://www.greenspiration.org/drug/articles/SeratoninHypothesis.htm
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Hmm. Can't spell serotonin. Or sertraline.

Doing a standard evaluation of the authority of the site, I see that it was set up by a Canadian woman whose education is a bachelors degree in sociology, making her perhaps unqualified to comment on these matters, and that the site itself is set up as a memorial to her partner, who killed himself while suffering depression - for which she blames not the depression, but the medication that he had recently started taking.

In other words, this ain't a credible source, as far as I'm concerned.

So I'm somewhat sceptical of the claims in this article, but I do admit that I'm not trained in this area either, so I might have to do some further reading....
 
Looking closely at the original article. I note it was written by a doctoral student in social work, and a professor at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine.

The article also contains a basic error, arguing that "Also problematic for the serotonin hypothesis is the growing body of research comparing SSRIs to interventions that do not target serotonin specifically. For instance, a Cochrane systematic review found no major difference in efficacy between SSRIs and tricyclic antidepressants ".

BUT: [it is believed that] tricyclics target serotonin. So this argument doesn't work.
 
Sim0n said:
Looking closely at the original article. I note it was written by a doctoral student in social work, and a professor at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine.

The article also contains a basic error, arguing that "Also problematic for the serotonin hypothesis is the growing body of research comparing SSRIs to interventions that do not target serotonin specifically. For instance, a Cochrane systematic review found no major difference in efficacy between SSRIs and tricyclic antidepressants ".

BUT: [it is believed that] tricyclics target serotonin. So this argument doesn't work.
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I don't think you will be able to dismiss Profs Healy and Dr Moncrieff as easily as the authors of the article linked to. If you can answer the points they make we will be on our way to a more interesting debate :)

Professor David Healy of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine, said: "The serotonin theory of depression is comparable to the masturbatory theory of insanity. Both have been depletion theories, both have survived in spite of the evidence, both contain an implicit message as to what people ought to do. In the case of these myths, the key question is whose interests are being served by a widespread promulgation of such views rather than how do we test this theory."

Dr Joanna Moncrieff, Senior Lecturer in Psychiatry at University College London, said: "It is high time that it was stated clearly that the serotonin imbalance theory of depression is not supported by the scientific evidence or by expert opinion. Through misleading publicity the pharmaceutical industry has helped to ensure that most of the general public is unaware of this."
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Cui bono from the chemical imbalance theories?!?!
 
Ernestrome said:
I don't think you will be able to dismiss Profs Healy and Dr Moncrieff as easily as the authors of the article linked to. If you can answer the points they make we will be on our way to a more interesting debate :)

Cui bono from the chemical imbalance theories?!?!
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That's why I say I'd have to do further reading. Dr Moncrieff, certainly, and Prof Healy, probably, have done a fair amount of research in this area (I looked 'em up :)). But whether they represent an orthodox view, and whether their research is contradicted by other research, I'm not so sure.

You can find an academic to defend or attack most views. It doesn't mean that they are correct :)

[One could also add that someone gains from discrediting anti-depressant drugs as a treatment for depression - therapists ;)]
 
See if this shit was legal we might have some conclusive studies...

it's a shame, because without them you have all sorts of people creating bogus theories based solely on anecdotal evidence that may or may not hold up to scientific scrutiny. :p
 
^
The articles that Ismene posted referred to serotonin in general, and anti-depressants in particular - not to MDMA or other illegal drugs :) (which, btw, we have ample evidence that MDMA affects serotonin through animal studies).
 
Serotonin levels DO affect mood, among other bodily functions (hence why SSRI's have so many side-effects). The fact that using MDMA can cause depression, as well as depleting serotonin, and taking into consideration that dosing post-roll with an SSRI or 5-HTP helps with this depression, makes me believe that low serotonin does cause depression. Maybe the extremely high levels of serotonin involved with starting a course of SSRI could cause the psychotic symptoms that could lead to "SSRI suicides".
 
FWIW, my view is that depression is caused by becoming 'stuck' in stable and persistent but unhealthy patterns of thinking. These are reflected by chemical changes in the brain. Drug and shock therapies work by disrupting these stable negative patterns, allowing a new pattern to be established. This would also explain why a combination of drugs and therapy is most effective. I think that antidepressants are useful in the short term, because they do allow the person to get to a point where they can make changes in their life.

I think it is sad that people are lead to believe that they have a chemcial imbalance (presumably genetic) that means they must be on drugs for the rest of their lives to correct it. I do not believe this is the case. I think chemical imbalance theory is about generating a long term revenue stream. I believe this is what Healy is driving at.
 
I think it is important to note that responsible use of mdma can lead to many discoveries and little to none of the side effects named above. It is also important to note that mdma feels so fucking good, that it is often hard to use responsibly.
If someone is going out every weekend and dropping high amounts of mdma, then there will absolutely be negative consequences.
While I agree that mdma can cause depression, I am not so sure that it is linked ONLY to depleted serotonin. I expect that the answer is most likely a little more complicated then that, but we just don't have enough information available yet.
Look at the French answer for an anti-depressant: Stablon/Coaxil/Tianaptine. Many studies thus far have claimed less side effects then our ssri's, (including little to no sexual side effects) more positive results and an overall better feeling of well being.
Curiously, it works in just the opposite fashion as an ssri; it actually increases the reuptake of serotonin. I am not advocating this drug, but my point is this: *As far as I know*, they have no clue why stablon works as well or better then the American anti-depressants, while working in just the opposite way on serotonin.
 
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You can find an academic to defend or attack most views. It doesn't mean that they are correct

Think the main point to consider is the absolute lack of evidence supporting the serotonin theory of depression tho. If there were thousands of articles proving low serotonin causes depression you might have a point. There isn't.

The articles that Ismene posted referred to serotonin in general, and anti-depressants in particular - not to MDMA or other illegal drugs

Yes but the theory goes that because you take MDMA it lowers your serotonin and this is why you get depressed. I'm just pointing out the that "low serotonin causes depression" theory has as much evidence behind it as the masturbation theory of insanity.
 
Ismene said:
I'm just pointing out the that "low serotonin causes depression" theory has as much evidence behind it as the masturbation theory of insanity.
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Yes, that's quite the catchy quote that you keep repeating. It's also patently false. There is quite a lot of research out there supporting a correlation between serotonin and depression. It may not be conclusive, but to say there is "no evidence" is a misrepresentation.

The sites you linked to clearly have an axe to grind. My personal feeling is that antidepressants are overprescribed and overmarketed by the drug companies, because they are extremely profitable medications intended for long-term use. But the way to confront that problem is not by spreading falsehoods about the complete absence of a link between serotonin and depression, or to suggest that every one of the millions of people who do improve via the use of SSRIs is simply experiencing a placebo effect.
 
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