Selegiline (l-deprenyl) - too good to be true?

[Dr. Beat]

Sodium Valproate

You have what my psychiatrist calls 'masked' bi-polar - you can keep a job down, and initially display a 'rational' mask to the world, but underneath your 'face' that you show the world, you are VERY bi-polar. You have EVERY manifestation of pi-polar, and you should be on Sodium Valproate, (or Lithium), and you can keep taking Ritalin on it for motivation.

It works, 2 of my friends are on it, and it has changed their life better than anything else, and they tried every drug (legal and illegal) under the sun. Sodium Valprote (Eplom) plus therapy is a great combo for long term happyness, well being, and success in life.

Good luck, you are going to need it, because 'masked' bi-polar people very often refuse to admit they are bi-polar, refuse bi-polar medication like Sodium Valproate, and are great rationalisers, and have to run into 'the wall' many times before they the stop and 'get it'.

And also, because you are in your manic phase right now, the depressive stage ALWAYS comes sooner or later. The only thing that will stop it is a mood stablizer like Sodium Valproate. If you got any wisdom AT ALL you will try it for a week or two.

I would also change your diet, because face it, it is not working for you, as Dr. Phil would say.

Try this one, it works really well for me:

www.13.waisays.com

and give up cigarettes if you smoke, they actually increase mental illness quite ALOT.

I hope this helps.

 

[streetsurfer]

yeah hey, come down enough to realise I was just all over the place. Oh well, will see if my useless GP will have the Guts to perscribe some epilim tomorrow (and then get assessed thanks mum) . Was fun while it lasted though
L8r

 

[joshstar]

Is it possible for a course l-deprenyl in combination with l-phenylalanine and possibly piracetam in combination with choline bitartrate to cause harm to someone that is young? 18 years old for example?

 

[MolokoVelocet]

I am currently taking 15mg Selegiline + 1,500-2,000mg DLPA daily. All i can say is WOW. The euphoria this combo generates is still hard for me to believe. check out some studies on the combo too... really really cool stuff.

funny enough when i add bannanas, canned cherries, and/or chocolate to my diet I get extremely euphoric.

selegiline/eldepryl + DLPA is recreational to say the least

 

[phase_dancer]

My course of selegiline was over approximately 12 weeks. During this time I took roughly 2.5mg / day, although in the last 2 weeks this was upped to 5mg/day.

It has now been ~ 6 weeks since I completed the course.

Overall, I think Selegiline had a positive impact on things, although I don't think it was the magic path to immortality that some of us are looking for. I felt some increase in alertness for most of the time, although there were several periods where lethargy and fatigue were noticed.

I noticed a definite increase in tolerance to things I'm normally sensitive about. Family and friends all thought I was happier generally over the past months, although subjectively, I felt other factors could be involved here. However, after ceasing the course, I feel these intolerances have, to some degree returned, and I'll find I'll react out of no-where like it's second nature.

I also found while on the course that I had less time for trivia - it wasn't so much that I was bored or uninterested, it's just that I tended to focus more on areas of genuine interest if that makes any sense. In the same way, some chores were neglected, but overall, I feel I accomplished more in the 12 weeks than I had for ages. I built my first rock wall and was happy with the result.

I also tended to become more supportive of loved ones, in that I'd clean up, prepare things and generally cover for those who were otherwise too busy. I guess I do that anyway, but I found myself more inclined to go out of my way to ease the load of others. All this seemed to be accomplished without effort, and everything in a day seemed to fit together easier, without needing to rush.

While taking selegiline, I don't think the subtle effects were all that recognizable to me, but they seemed to be to others. As said, memory was better in the sense that I could always remember (picture in my mind) where I'd either put something down, or where something was that others were looking for. So, there seemed to also be some form of subconscious memory improvement, where a mental note is taken of everything. Sort of like I was in my late teens, where retention and recall were at a peak.

During the 12 weeks, I used MDMA twice, (the beginning and right at the end) and cocaine on a few occasions - when it was offered. Except for coffee, in every instance where sympathomimetics were used, the amounts taken were far less than what's considered an average dose. I noticed no real difference to the expected euphoria - well, nothing that excluded other important variables, such as the strength of the tablets, infrequency of rolling, etc.

With the MDMA, I did notice a slight hypertension, but as I've explained in past postings, this was also occurring when MDMA was being consumed more regularly. Cocaine, in the minimal amounts taken seemed to work much the same. At times the high seemed a bit more accentuated although I did wonder if the coke seen in recent times was of a higher quality. So, by and large, with both MDMA and cocaine, I'd say there that personally I noticed little difference to both the duration and intensity of the effect. However, a friend who was also taking piracetam with selegiline (5mg/day), claimed that he noticed increased effects with almost any drug.


All in all I think selegiline gives positive results when taken in the amounts I've described. I intend to do another course on 5-8mg / day and see if there are any noticeable improvements on the lower dose regimen.



Rasagiline: An even better nootropic

I've been reading about this compound for some time. It was developed by an Israeli pharmaceutical company as an adjunct therapy for parkinsons disease; much the same way that selegiline was developed.

While selegiline does create what's thought to be better metabolic pathways for many endogenous monoamines, it does itself metabolise into 3 compounds, one of which is N-desmethylselegiline, which probably also has MAOB inhibiting properties The other two metabolites are L-amphetamine and L-methamphetamine, both of which are slightly psychoactive, but are also somewhat toxic. Rasagiline on the other hand, produces no toxic metabolites whatsoever. Phase 1 clinical trials indicated it's efficacy is far greater than selegiline as its a better substrate for MAOB.

The big problem with Rasagiline at this stage involves its cost. Because the Israeli company owns the patent, and the drug has, until now, only been available through licensed suppliers of such research compounds, the cost has been too high for it to be used as a noo-tropic. Although we can't mention prices here, I will say that a European company quoted me several tens of thousands of Euros for 100g. The drug could be relatively easily synthesized if the required chemicals were available, although I don't recommend this of course. Pricing may change however once licencing is granted to generic companies and the drug is officially released - which is what's happening now.


If anyone is interested, I have quite a few papers on this potentially "magic" compound.

Rasagiline

 

[MolokoVelocet]

Well the "toxic metabolites" reasoning is complete utter crap. Even if all 5mg of selegiline got metabolized into amphetamines this is still below therapeutic doses, which are not neurotoxic in the least... not to mention they only get metabolized into the L isomers.

What a joke

Most important of all selegilines metabolites are 30 times as powerful neuroprotectors as selegiline itself and many if not most of Selegilines unique effects are attributed to its METABOLITES. Selegiline's metabolites are one of the coolest aspects of the drug. blows me away they tout rasigiline as this wonderful selegiline with no toxic metabolites.... pure pharmaceutical sales BULLSHIT.

does nobody use pubmed?? kills me that drug companies can get away with this bullshit without being called on it

Rasigiline might be a better neutropic? If anybody has some info on how rasigiline is actually better than selegiline post please.

 

[MolokoVelocet]

and streetsurfer, no offense... but if your gonna cut and paste shit from drug company sales websites atleast give them credit for it... or one might assume it is YOU who is speading/perpetuating misinformation.

plagerism is an issue too i guess, but im not THAT fucking anal

 

[phase_dancer]

Selegiline's metabolites are one of the coolest aspects of the drug. blows me away they tout rasigiline as this wonderful selegiline with no toxic metabolites.... pure pharmaceutical sales BULLSHIT.

Selegiline is an old drug, developed in the 1960's. What makes you think that better agents haven't been discovered in the 40 or so years since?

Contrasting neuroprotective and neurotoxic actions of respective
metabolites of anti-Parkinson drugs rasagiline and selegiline

Orit Bar Ama, Tamar Amita, Moussa B.H. Youdim

Abstract

The anti-Parkinson selective irreversible monoamine oxidase B inhibitor drugs, rasagiline and selegiline, have been shown to possess neuroprotective activities in cell culture and in vivo models. While rasagiline is metabolized to its major metabolite aminoindan, selegiline gives rise to L-methamphetamine. Cultured PC-12 cells in absence of serum and nerve growth factor (NGF) die by an apoptotic process. Pretreatment of PC12 cells in absence of serum and NGF for 24 h with either rasagiline (1 mM) or selegiline (1 mM) is neuroprotective and anti-apoptotic as determined by Eliza and MTT tests.

However, while aminoindan (1 mM), the major metabolite of rasagiline does not interfere with the neuroprotective activities of rasagiline or selegiline in PC-12 cells deprived of serum and NGF, the major metabolite of selegiline, L-methamphetamine (1mM), inhibits them. In contrast to L-methamphetamine, aminoindan is itself is neuroprotective in this system. Recently it has been demonstrated that rasagiline directly activates PKC-MAP kinase pathway by a concentration and time dependent phosphorylation of p42 and p44 MAP kinase. In the present studies the neuroprotective activity of rasagiline is blocked by ERK inhibitor, PD98059 (20 mM), suggesting the involvement of PKC-MAP kinase pathway in the neuroprotection. These findings may have implication for the possible disease modifying action of rasagiline in treatment of Parkinson’s disease.

Bold & underline added; p_d



I agree that there is little L-methamphetamine and L-amphetamine produced overall as metabolites of selegiline, but these are still likely to cause some neurotoxicity, even in the amounts produced - which can differ depending upon individual metabolic preferences. From memory, rasagiline is ~30 times more potent than selegiline. It does not produce any toxic metabolites. Sales pitch or not, IMO the pre-clinical and clinical studies have demonstrated that efficacy of rasagiline is not in question.

There's also BPAP, more effective than selegiline and rasagiline according to the summary discussions of this paper (full text available via Elsevier) (-)BPAP is 130x the potency of Selegiline.


BTW, rasagiline sold under AGILECT or AZILECT has been approved in Australia as an adjunct therapy for Parkinsons disease. I haven't yet found out a price.

 

[Morb]

Selegiline is an old drug, developed in the 1960's. What makes you think that better agents haven't been discovered in the 40 or so years since?



Bold & underline added; p_d



I agree that there is little L-methamphetamine and L-amphetamine produced overall as metabolites of selegiline, but these are still likely to cause some neurotoxicity, even in the amounts produced - which can differ depending upon individual metabolic preferences. From memory, rasagiline is ~30 times more potent than selegiline. It does not produce any toxic metabolites. Sales pitch or not, IMO the pre-clinical and clinical studies have demonstrated that efficacy of rasagiline is not in question.

There's also BPAP, more effective than selegiline and rasagiline according to the summary discussions of this paper (full text available via Elsevier) (-)BPAP is 130x the potency of Selegiline.


BTW, rasagiline sold under AGILECT or AZILECT has been approved in Australia as an adjunct therapy for Parkinsons disease. I haven't yet found out a price.

i'm with you on the free-radical generating, neurotoxic metabolite producing aspects of deprenyl, which i assume is why youre not taking it anymore other than you said it didnt seem too effective for you, though it may be usable if you balance anti-oxidant systems

but rasagaline and BPAP, you must be intrigued? are you waiting for more studies or are you tracking it down for use as i type?

 

[phase_dancer]

I intend to do another course of selegiline soon, this time on a 5mg/ day regimen. I am very interested in rasagiline. We'll just have to see if it can be prescribed locally, and that cost isn't prohibitive. BPAP is still pretty much a 'research' compound atm, in that I'm not aware of any human trials.

 

[Morb]

I intend to do another course of selegiline soon, this time on a 5mg/ day regimen. I am very interested in rasagiline. We'll just have to see if it can be prescribed locally, and that cost isn't prohibitive. BPAP is still pretty much a 'research' compound atm, in that I'm not aware of any human trials.

i know its priced high (rasagiline), i have 500mg selegiline (juprenil) now, and i got d-phenylalanine to go with but ive since learned that i shouldve gotten l or at least d-l, how old are you if you dont mind? and will you use the NAC/vitC&E stack to go with your next run, or what will you try exactly? i was really psyched to try the dep but the free radical thing has me gunshy

 

[chooselife]

nanobrain can you please explain the selegeline + methamphetamine combo in laymans terms pls

 

[nanobrain]

ok. if you read the above pages carefully, you'll note that the consensus is selegeline + methamphetamine combo is contraindicated.

 

[Morb]

[

Incidentally, selegiline breaksdown after being on the self for 3-5 years. The breakdown product is.....wait for it....amphetamine
But before you rush to get a script, I should tell you the b/d product is all l-amphetamine i.e. the slighly active isomer found in nasal proucts

.

can reducing temperature slow that degradation?


right after you dose, what happens in your brain? ie When does everything calm down closer to normal, and I don't mean just the MAO, I want to know the critical times to be increasing your antiox stack

 

[phase_dancer]

can reducing temperature slow that degradation?

Probably. I once knew a guy who worked for a company doing shelf life tests on selegiline. Accelerated aging was in part accomplished by increasing storage temperature.

right after you dose, what happens in your brain? ie When does everything calm down closer to normal, and I don't mean just the MAO, I want to know the critical times to be increasing your antiox stack

Here's a really good article from Nature. It gives an up to date coverage of whats known about MAO inhibitors, particularly selegiline. You have to become a subscriber but it's free, and IMO well worth the effort for this review alone.

The therapeutic potential of monoamine oxidase inhibitors

 

[Morb]

it's a heavy article, most of it bounced off, but i don't think i found what i was after

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7595571&dopt=Citation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16242156&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

maybe you know, i read it on here somewhere i think, deprenyl inhibits MAOB, but when you take it it has more direct effects on brain antioxidants, elevating SOD, say i'm dosing twice/wk, how long should i be really concerned with increasing GSH-PX and CAT in relation to the time i actually take the pill? or should i just keep the NAC/C&E going 2x/day throughout (what I am doing)?

how is the rasagaline going and how much did you end up paying?

 

[zorb]

hey all


am about to start my second course of selegiline..
initially took it as a nootropic for memory etc - but found the (VERY) pleasant side effect of it treating my adult ADHD

i have never suffered from ADHD terribly, but have always had focus/concentration/retention issues when reading etc
also procrastination/motivation problem even around things i enjoy doing (politics stuff at uni etc)

at 5mg/day the selegiline helped this greatly.. am going to dose up on the berries and exercise to counter any oxidative stress...

curious if anyone else out there has noticed this?

 

[marklar_the_23rd]

hey all


am about to start my second course of selegiline..
initially took it as a nootropic for memory etc - but found the (VERY) pleasant side effect of it treating my adult ADHD

i have never suffered from ADHD terribly, but have always had focus/concentration/retention issues when reading etc
also procrastination/motivation problem even around things i enjoy doing (politics stuff at uni etc)

at 5mg/day the selegiline helped this greatly.. am going to dose up on the berries and exercise to counter any oxidative stress...

curious if anyone else out there has noticed this?

hey i've got the exact same problems. went to the doc and was told that i shouldnt fake symptoms (he thought i was after dexies i guess, when i just wanted some damn help!). i guess i shouldn't of told him that i was a speed freak a few years ago...

Attempting?! you try being a computer programmer who's attention span gets less and less as he gets older and see how you feel. (for the record this is the 5th time i have alt-tabbed back to this message since starting to write it)

arrgggh i alt tabbed, forgot about this and now its timed out. this post better work or i give up.


maybe i should try selegline?

 

[tadfish]

what selegline is everybody using.
what brand?
Liquid or tablet.
i have heard that the liquid is alot different and better.
I have ADHD (adult ADHD) and am wondering what it would be like to try it.
also got some modafinil and thinking of using that as well

 

[streetsurfer]

WTF are you talking about MolokoVelocet, unreferenced quotes??..... Ohhh, your an EX Bluelighter....