Safe preparation of 25d-NBOMe HCl - advice pease.

[Anon0631]

Safe preparation of 25d-NBOMe HCl - advice please.

Can someone please check my method and confirm it's relative safety/troubleshoot.

1) weigh out 40mg 25d-NBOMe HCl and place in small vile.
2) weigh out 360mg HPBCD and place in same vile.
3) add 5ml warm distilled water
4) cap vile and shake until all visible solids have dissolved
5) attach vile to the head of an electric toothbrush with rubber bands and leave it switched on for an hour to complex, shaking every 10-15 minutes.
6) pour solution into evaporating dish and leave to dry.
7) weigh out 8mg of dry complex which should contain 800µg of 25d-NBOMe for insufflation

 

[Transform]

You don't need HPBCD with the HCl salt, it's already soluble. I'm not 100% on whether complexing works with the salt form, but otherwise your procedure looks good.

 

[Anon0631]

I think you have that wrong.

25x-NBOMe salts are partially hydrophobic and complexing with cyclodexdrin improves their delivery via the buccal ROA. It's not necessary for insufflation but I had some HPBCD lying around and I needed some sort of bulking agent to increase the mass of powder to a manageable size. Seeing as complexation will either increase nasal absorption or make no difference to it, there's no reason not to use HPBCD over glucose for this task.

 

[Transform]

Hence why I said need. I figured you were probably using it as a bulking agent as much as anything

 

[klondike_bar]

ive read reports by users who HAVE TRIED complexed hcl salts of the nbome series, and they indicate that complexing does in fact increase the activity. (hcl is still active in its own right though). while i havent seen or cant recall any actual numbers, my impression was that an extra ~10-20% activity can be achieved when an HCl salt is complexed.

note: review the HPBCD ratio and utilize molar masses if you have the chemistry knowledge. the 9:1 ratio is taken from its use on testosterone. Ive read a few reports stating that with nbomes the ratio is slightly lower, about 8:1. If so, this will reduce the amount of needless sugars/mass in the final result.

 

[Anon0631]

So I followed the above procedure and it worked really well. It took ages to air dry and seemed to stop evaporating once it became syrupy. I poured the syrup over a sheet of thick glass, placed it in a very low oven for 20 minutes and then scraped off the hard residue with a razor blade. I got a fine snortable powder.

Next time I would drop the evaporation step and just pour the 5 ml of water straight over a sheet of glass and place it in the oven.

I haven't tried uncomplexed 25d but 600µg of the complexed material insufflated led to a strong ++ or possibly weak +++ on the Shulgin scale. Based on other reports on dosage, this suggests that nasal administration of HPBCD complexed HCl NBOMe salts are in fact more potent than un-complexed by the same route. More research needs to be done on this of course.

Also 6mg of complex is far safer to dose accurately than 600µg of pure powder.

 

[klondike_bar]

how much more potent would you say? what ive been hearing is about a 20% increase. (ie 500mcg complexed = 600mcg uncomplexed)

 

[zn13bt]

Are these double-blind comparisons? I'm skeptical that one could reliably distinguish a 100ug difference in dose of any NBOMe (except possibly 25C since it's the most potent one) and dosage ranges vary widely between users.

 

[klondike_bar]

^they are fairly anecdotal. its generally people who have complexed their own materials with HPBCD, reporting that it is "far better".

im not entirely sold, but i can believe that hpbcd-complexing enables more efficient dosage, paticularly by oral/sublingual means

 

[Anon0631]

Firstly, in my research I have never heard on anyone complexing freebase NBOMe - only salts. I have also never seen freebase available from a supplier. I don't see why it would be seeing as the HCl salt vaporises just fine. The purpose of complexing is to increase availability via mucosal transfer, not to get it into solution. For that, salting the freebase would be much easier.

I will be doing a comparison between 1mg uncomplexed 25d dissolved in 40% ETOH, applied as nasal drops and 1mg complexed 25d snorted. It won't be double blind although actually that's quite an interesting idea. I will separate the doses by 4 weeks to allow for tolerance and when I have some results, I will post them here.

 

[zn13bt]

I think at least some of the stuff being sold as HCl is actually freebase? I got some 25I that was labelled HCl but it wouldn't dissolve at all in distilled water. Then I added some vinegar and with a couple minutes of stirring it all dissolved just fine. I don't think it would behave that way if it actually was the HCl salt, but then I'm only a kitchen chemist so I don't know for sure. With later testing it turned out to be a +1 at 500ug and a +3 at 800ug-1mg.

Had a similar problem trying to get 25C to dissolve that was also sold to me as HCl, but again once I added vinegar that did the trick. If you check the first few pages of the first 25I B&D thread there are other reports of solubility issues with material that was sold as HCl. For example: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...NBOMe-Thread?p=9644186&viewfull=1#post9644186

Anon, don't know where you're doing your research, but on the B&D threads it sounds like everyone trying to complex it is using the freebase (and most of them also seem to be trying to lay sheets of it to pass off as LSD, but whatever). I never really got the point of that since if you have the freebase you can just add some acid like you said to get it into solution.

 

[Coolio]

25D-NBOMe is best snorted/smoked/injected/plugged, I think increasing buccal absorption is a misguided attempt. No need to complex the stuff; just use the raw powder.

 

[Anon0631]

Plenty of compounds posess salts who's solubility depends on PH.

25c plugged was disappointing. I wouldn't recommend this ROA.

 

[zn13bt]

Here's a couple reports showing that the HCl salts of NBOMes should be soluble in water at room temperature, no pH adjustment required. I'm pretty sure that despite what the suppliers are claiming, a lot of the stuff on the market right now is actually freebase. Perhaps the people who believe they've complexed the HCl actually have the freebase instead, and that's why they're seeing a difference in effects, since freebase NBOMe is pretty hit-or-miss in dosing.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...hread-(New!)?p=9684038&viewfull=1#post9684038

the poster uses ~8.5 mg/ml for many NBOMe now and has no problems "solving" HCl salts of the 25C, 25D, or 25E at this concentration. 25E (the least soluble in water) takes a bit of uniform agitation (i.e. vortexing) over a few minutes to go into solution, but reasonable room temperature and no heat is required or should be applied.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...NBOMe-Thread?p=9901194&viewfull=1#post9901194

Here is the result of a recent experiment. 2.1 mg of recrystallized 25I-NBOMe hydrochloride was dissolved in 1 mL of water, which went slowly, since the compound was granular. 200 uL of this resulting solution (420 ug) was then applied sublingually with an oral syringe and held for 20 minutes without swallowing. Within 45 minutes, a strong and pleasurable +3 experience resulted. No need for cyclodextrin. Conclusion: The problems with solubility and activity reported above for 25I-NBOMe must be due to the supplier giving the free base instead of the HCl salt.

 

[Rorthron]

Here's a couple reports showing that the HCl salts of NBOMes should be soluble in water at room temperature

25C-NBOME HCl is definitely soluble in water at room temperature. I know it from personal experience. Some shaking is involved, but after the dissolution is completed it stays like that. The pH was around 6.0

 

[Anon0631]

As mentioned above. Complexing is done to increase the availability of a partially hydrophobic molecule across biological membranes, not because the compound is insoluble.

 

[klondike_bar]

approximate solubilities from my experience:

25B-nbome HCl: 30mg/mL was simple. slight heat and a few minutes agitation got it to this level. I would assume that up to 50mg/mL is possible
25I-nbome HCl: ^same thing. perhaps slightly lower ceiling, maybe 45mg/mL
25C-nbome "HCL": difficult to dissolve at 19mg/mL with moderate heat and agitation. however, application of a very small amount of citric acid caused undissolved matter (maybe 15% of inital mass) to immediately enter solution and slightly cloud the liquid. unsure if the HCl contained some incompletely converted freebase, or another factor was at play. after this "remedy" I would anticipate >25mg/mL is possible with minimal heating

note: the 25C showed significant activity at 750ug prior to conversion. It has not been tested since converting