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Roadside Drug Testing....

'Contradictory' drug tests in doubt
By Andrew Webster, Marc Moncrief
December 15, 2004 - 3:58PM
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A world first roadside drugs testing program has been thrown into doubt after it emerged two separate tests taken from the same driver failed to agree which drug he had allegedly taken.

Victoria Police say John De Jong, 39, initially tested positive for methamphetamine.

But Mr De Jong today said he was told the results of a second, more sophisticated test conducted in the back of a police vehicle, showed only he had taken marijuana. He said police at no time told him he had tested for methamphetamine.

Experts say the contradictory results demonstrate the tests are not yet ready for use.

"Research that we are aware of has shown that these devices are not yet reliable enough," said Australian Drug Management and Education Group chief executive officer Gwen Wilcox.

"There will be legal ramifications from using this," she warned.

Police Minister Andre Haermeyer today defended the roadside drug tests, saying he had "every confidence in the integrity of this process".
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But Mr De Jong says he intends to fight to clear his name and is considering suing the police force after media reports on Monday alleged he tested positive for both marijuana and methamphetamine.

Mr De Jong today told The Age Online he had never used methamphetamine. He said the last time he had smoked marijuana was "a little over four weeks ago with a friend".

He said police on Monday told him the second of two saliva tests indicated he had smoked marijuana within the past two hours. At no point, he said, was he told he had tested positive for methamphetamine.

"I asked them a number of times to explain the test results and they said I had consumed it (marijuana) within two hours," he said.

"I told them truthfully that yes, four weeks ago I had had a joint," he said.

A police spokesman today confirmed the first test, conducted while Mr De Jong sat in his vehicle, indicated only that Mr De Jong had taken methamphetamine. He said police could not confirm the result of the second test until a third test is done in a laboratory.

The analysis of Mr De Jong's evidentiary test should be available by the end of the week.

Solicitor Katalin Blond of firm Slater and Gordon's today told ABC radio Mr De Jong might bring suits for defamation and breach of privacy.

"My client's rights have clearly been violated," Ms Blond said.

Mr De Jong today said he had very little sleep since Monday. "Everything that has happened to me in the last couple of days keeps going round and round in my head," he said.

Police have issued a statement defending the testing process.

The statement, from Assistant Director Media Kevin Loomes, said police had followed normal procedures and had asked the media to respect Mr De Jong's privacy.

"Police at no stage identified the man and had requested the media likewise not to identify this person as the matter was still pending," the statement said.

Assistant Commissioner Bob Hastings said police had taken steps to calm the media frenzy around Mr De Jong's result.

"We knew that there was intense media interest in this because it was a first and as a consequence we took an approach to control the situation and advised the media to be there at a certain time where they could watch what occurred," assistant commissioner Hastings said.

"At no stage did we identify him. We advised the media who were present at the scene not to identify him and after the process had been completed at the scene, we understand that he actually conducted a short media interview himself at the time."

"Following the process, he was also asked by an independent sub-officer was he satisfied with his treatment by police, of which he said he was. He was also asked if he understood what it was all about, which he did. And he was also asked if he had a copy or a sample of his own which he
could analyse."

"We conducted a process no differently to what we always do at our booze bus and in our random drug testing sites. So we believe that we complied with the legislation and we endeavoured to protect the privacy as best we could."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/12/15/1102787114858.html?from=top5
 
nanobrain said:
what of such things as selegeline (l-deprenyl) metabolites?

afaik, selegeleine is not a scripted nor a scheduled med, yet primary metabolites are amphetamine and methamphetamine, they are bound to show up on the saliva test, if elimination profile for saliva is anything like for urine.

interested to see how the legislative nuances of this one would fall out...

I'm extremely concerned about this one. I've used selegiline multiple times for exams, and found it to be extremely useful. If this goes ahead, it's going to pose significant problems for myself in the use of this wonderful substance.

I personally don't see how the mens rea (mental element) is present, as you never intended to ingest methamphetamine ;) . Then again, they might construe it as a strict liability offense -- you're guilty merely by the fact that you test positive, unless there's a reasonable mistake of fact. Then again, you'd have to admit to taking a prescription drug without a prescription, which is an offence in itself.
 
I don't think there would be any burden on the police to prove you intended to drive with drugs in your blood, just that you returned a series of concordant positive drug tests.

Hence, if you return a series of positive results on successive tests for amphetamines then you will be charged with driving under the influence of amphetamines, regardless of whether you had (deliberately or accidentally, with or without your knowledge) ingested speed, meth, MDMA, selegiline, some other substance, or indeed nothing at all.

I would presume that in such a circumstance, the onus would then be placed upon you, to take the remaining saliva sample to an independent laboratory, have it analysed and then work out a plausible legal explanation for the presence of whatever substances are detected.

BigTrancer :)
 
^^ and unfortunately that won't be a cheap exercise. In the case of Selegiline, there would hopefully also be other metabolites or unchanged drug present which would discern this from amphetamine.

But it will present interesting opportunities for police to prosecute. Take these hypothetical extremes;

Joe gets caught with amphetamine and THC in his blood via drug wipe. Further tests reveal the source of the amphetamine metabolite was phenylpropanolamine - prescribed for decongesting properties - and Marinol, a synthetic THC, prescribed to relieve the side effects Joe suffers from chemotherapy. Joe also takes other drugs which have a profound influence on his metabolic pathways i.e. the way he metabolizes a drug.


3 cars later Fred also reads positive for marijuana and amphetamine. Fred can't understand it, he remembers a punter who reeked strongly of dope yelling in his face just before he left the club, but he certainly didn't smoke marijuana. Fred hates the stuff.

As for amphetamine, forget it. He's into natural supplements and life enhancing synthetics - the noo tropics - which he orders without problems over the Internet. Fred doesn't have a script for these drugs, but he's never really thought it to be a problem as each shipment has arrived on time, passing customs inspection. Fred has never ever taken meth.


In Joes case, merely having the cops check his medication labels may avoid him of any charge. If not, the legal proof may not be expected to be so expensive i.e. a blood test on his part wouldn't be necessary.

But what if Joe had purposely upped his THC dosage or smoked a joint, and even taken an illegal drug such as meth? Unlikely I know, but would the Police be required to follow it up more thoroughly to be sure Joe's red eyes and fidgety pose aren't due to meth and smoke? Perhaps the onus will still be on Joe to provide the proof via a Lab Analysis of his blood.

Freds story is tricky. His dope explanation is impossible to prove. He quite truthfully states that he has not taken meth or speed, but in the eyes of the Police, he has no reason to have such metabolites in his body. Underneath Fred is sweating because he knows that deprenyl is metabolised to l-amphetamine.

Fred is charged on both counts. His privately obtained blood test reveals the amphetamine metabolites came from a prescription drug - Selegiline - one that Fred has no medical authorization for. If Fred is to use it to clear the charge of driving under the influence of amphetamines, the first questions from the magistrate or prosecutor may be "Where did you obtain this drug, a drug only available via prescription for Parkinsons Disease. Have you ever been diagnosed with Parkinsons Disease Mr Fred?" . The door is then opened for more serious charges involving importation of a restricted substance.

As I've said in the past, the ramifications of multi-substance roadside testing will extend way beyond driving under the influence. Add an imperfect system and it's potential for wrong doing is unimaginable. Who will pick up the eventual costs for these blunders and abuses, not to mention the court costs of those unjustly convicted.

Can someone, a lawyer perhaps answer this.


Even if it is fully admitted later by police and accepted by the courts, tell me how anyone who at any point is wrongly arrested or charged can truly clear their name.

From that point on, if say filling out a Visa Entry form, does it mean the cleared person can write NO to the inevitable question Have you ever been charged or arrested by police?




BTW, Despite what I said above about ramifications, I'm in favour of an accurate system that has established cutoff values for all substances tested for. However, such a system will still have far reaching effects for all. It's the wall of objectionable trackers that it will eventually clash with, and that will decide the ultimate fate of such a stand alone system.

I believe ion scanners will eventually be used to locate the most likely cars with drugs on board. Traces of a drug would serve to be a fairly accurate filter, as if detected, these would be good indicators of possible use. The result of the ion scan may influence the type of breath/saliva sweat test that is then used.

Edit: spelling etc
 
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here's another similar news source;


Driver denies taking drugs
18:08 AEDT Wed Dec 15 2004

A delivery driver who tested positive to the world's first roadside drug test in Melbourne this week says he is innocent and is determined to clear his name.

John De Jong, who drives a van and a small truck for a Melbourne company, said he had returned two positive tests for drugs at a random roadside test in Melbourne's inner west.

Police told him the tests, which detect THC, - the active component in marijuana - and methamphetamine, or speed, in saliva, showed he had smoked marijuana two hours beforehand, he said.

But Mr De Jong, who uses marijuana two or three times a year, said he had not smoked the drug for a month.

The 39-year-old father of two said he was devastated when his image was captured by waiting press photographers and cameramen called by police to witness the world first test, carried out in Yarraville on Monday.

"I don't do drugs and I don't drink and drive," he said. "It's as simple as that."

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Police Minister Andre Haermeyer defended the roadside drug tests, saying he had "every confidence in the integrity of this process".

Mr De Jong, whose initial tests are being verified in a laboratory, has not been charged.

His solicitor Katalin Blond, from Melbourne law firm Slater and Gordon, said her client, who was widely identified in the media as having returned two positive drug tests, was considering suing Victoria Police.

In the meantime, Mr De Jong was keen to publicise his version of events, she said.

"All I am trying to do now is get it out into the media that I am not guilty and I would like to be proven not guilty," Mr De Jong told AAP.

"I've been sat up there in front of the cameras and (they) basically said I'm guilty before I've even been charged."

Mr De Jong, who lives in Ballarat in central Victoria, said his family had been shocked when they saw him on the television news.

"I didn't actually tell them until I got home from work... expecting to walk in the door and sit my two girls and my wife down to tell them and I walked into tears," he said.

"They'd already seen it on the news and couldn't believe it."

Mr De Jong said he drove about 1,800 km per week and had not had a motoring offence for 15 years.

"I've never had any problems as far as speeding fines, parking fines," he said.

"I've probably had 100 breathalyser tests in the last 18 years and they always come up with nothing."

Mr Haermeyer said Victoria Police was blazing a trail with random roadside testing.

"We are leading the world in this and I think that the fact that 31 per cent of drivers involved in fatal road collisions have drugs other than alcohol in their blood seems to suggest that there's a problem here," he said.


http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=24642
 
Considering that the tests have nothing to do with impairment, what's to stop the tests from being used by Police whilst on patrol?

Lets just hope these tests are proven useless.
 
What about these blood tests ? ..
is there anywhere saying the police wont keep a dna record with your name after these tests ?

Cant wait until we can find out about the testers and if we can get our own for testing ourselves
 
Yep, I'm pretty sure that's in there too...

I actually downloaded, printed, and read the whole friggen thing back when it was still waiting to be passed. I'll see if I can find a link to it (if they still have the drafts up after they become law).
 
OK, here's the appropriate pieces of legislation. Hopefully anyone with questions will take the time to have a look through them, because it can't be any clearer than looking at the actual laws.

Road Safety (Drug Driving) Act 2003 - Act No. 111/2003

Road Safety (Drivers) (Alcohol and Other Drugs) Regulations 2004 - S.R No. 158/2004

Road Safety (General) (Alcohol and Other Drugs) Regulations 2004 - S.R No. 159/2004

And to see all the new ammendments put together in the act that actually matters, here's the whole damn thing - all 373 pages worth:

Road Safety Act 1986 - Act No. 127/1986

The answers to pretty much all questions will be in these (and possibly a few other) documents, which are all publically available. Other documents can be found at the Victorian Legislation and Parliamentary Documents page.

Enjoy! :)
 
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Thats why we luv ya Pleo ;)

Whats better than finding an answer to a question, finding a damm good answer to a whole lot of questions =D
 
Okie dokie - now here's the hansard extracts of the bill's passage through parliment. Haven't had a chance to read through it fully yet, but it gives an idea of what the politicians were thinking when they devised this scheme.

Legislative Assembly
Road Safety (Drug Driving) Second Reading Debate 30th October 2003 (scroll to page 1418)
--- adjourned until 25th November
Road Safety (Drug Driving) Second/Third Reading Debate 25th November 2003 (scroll to page 1943)

Legislative Council
Road Safety (Drug Driving) Second Reading Debate 26th November 2003 (scroll to page 1813)
--- adjourned until 2nd December
Road Safety (Drug Driving) Second/Third Reading Debate 2nd December 2003 (scroll to page 2006 then 2028)

smile.gif
 
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Okay first of all people I never said I was a better driver on POT, or anything if you read what I've written, but to be honest Pot doesn't really do much in the way of impairment for me! It's almost like everyday life!

Also if you read my post correctly, I said People would much rather sum1 charged on a line of whizz than they would someone scattered falling asleep behind the wheel! Just sit and think for a min!

And I bet those 80% of people "on drugs, when they crash" are all coming down off it, not getting on it and also you have to account for the other people on the road as well, who said it's 100% the person on the drugs fault for the accident? are all these accidents single vehicle accidents?

I have never drunk driven...

There's a difference between being drunk and being on whizz, pills & pot, When your drunk you just plainly don't kno what you're doing!

I saw an educational video at school for Phys ED, showing the risks of drink driving and impairdements, showing reaction speeds while the person was sober and while they were drunk, it left markers on the road to show this and it was quite significant, however it did not have them on any drugs, it would be interesting to see how the tests would come up for people on other drugs besides alcohol???

Just a thought!
 
Well, I've just read through both of these eight page threads. Feel a little more informed, but still very much in the dark...

A few questions, if I may...

Muzby, Pop Popavich...you guys mention low time positives...2.5 hours for instance. What is the highest time with a positive you guys found? I imagine 36-40 hours is getting pretty much safe, or is that a stupid assumption?

Anyone been roadside tested?

Is there just one such testing team or are there many vans across Vic?

And this question is getting a little OT, but I thought I'd check...the site rules prohibit talking about place names. Does that mean we can't say, have a speculataive discussion as to where the busses might be on NYE? Or say where they were after the fact? Probably not hehe.

All questions, no info. I'm sorry! :P
 
Does that mean we can't say, have a speculataive discussion as to where the busses might be on NYE?
Well... guessing probably isn't going to get anyone anywhere - but if anyone has some kind of inside info on where the Drug Testing bus will be operating on new years and wants to email me, then I would be happy to post it in here anonymously for them...! =D

If you see them operating on the road, by all means post the location (with date and time)... even SMS another BL who can post it real-time, because it's always good to know and I don't think the commercial radio stations are doing "drug bus" alerts yet like their speed camera updates... ;)

BigTrancer :)
 
funny thing is I gave my mate a bashing over driving after taking a bunch of Xanax, he said "the Xanax have done nothing to me!", I was afraid he could suddenly loose control of his car, or become careless (as you do on most benzos)...this could have happened had he not had such a high Xanax tollerance. If it were me I probably would have been safe too, but I am not going to try it at all.

So, while they are looking for people who are drving while on illegal stimulants, weed, MDMA, meth etc.. how about those people who are taking their prescribed meds and will test clear but are probably more a hazzard on the roads than those who are comming down from a night out? I dunno? make sense. I know some peops who really can get smashed on pharms and could pass the drug driving test but still kill someone else or themselves.

I have no idea what I just typed here.. So just don't do drugs or drink and drive. It's really that simple.
 
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Testing for "cannabis and amphetamines" is a broad swipe but by no means is it a catch-all for drugged drivers. The testers apparently won't pick up any prescription or OTC drugs, or things like ketamine or GHB/1,4B... but as mentioned earlier, if you're high and the policeman knows it because you're obviously high, that will get you a trip to the station and a blood test (and a more serious penalty than a positive on the saliva test units) before you even come down.

BigTrancer :)
 
Hi, I have read this post and other relevent threads, however there is one legal question which I have not found yet to be answered.

Lets say X person has been caught drug driving and has paid the $300 fine and also recieved the three demerit points deduction. X does not want to fight the case, and accepts the penalties.

Now X, in regards to Employment, who is in a specialised field, applies for a job within a Government/Military agency or Company where a Mandatory Police check must be performed, prior to a job placement.

This police check is done, and the company finds the 'Drug Driving' offence. What can/will the company/agency do in this situation? Because it is one thing to have a Traffic Infringemnt notice for speeding, however on the other hand drug driving may be viewed in a different light.

We all know that companies must not be Prejudicial, ie Racially, Female/Male.. all must be equal, but who is to say they wont be in this case. They might immediately assume X is a 'drug user' (and all the typical negative conotations).. hence will not hire that person.

Does anyone have any information on this scenario?

Thanks, any help appreciated. As to most I beliebe Drug Driving Testing should be implemented, however as others have stated on a legally equal footing.

:)
 
deeph said:
Now X, in regards to Employment, who is in a specialised field, applies for a job within a Government/Military agency or Company where a Mandatory Police check must be performed, prior to a job placement.

This police check is done, and the company finds the 'Drug Driving' offence. What can/will the company/agency do in this situation? Because it is one thing to have a Traffic Infringemnt notice for speeding, however on the other hand drug driving may be viewed in a different light.

:)


This is the situation as I see it in Western Australia regarding Police Clearances. I know these Drug Driving tests are only in Victoria at the moment, but the Govt over here is looking with keen interest to introduce the same tests as soon as practicable.

In WA, a Police Clearance only lists any Criminal Convictions, not Traffic Infringements, and to the best of my knowledge, a Police Clearance may only be requested by the individual. To release this information to anyone else is in itself a criminal act. The Victorian Police have been at pains to bleat that the evidence obtained from these drug tests are for use in Traffic Policing only, and cannot be used in any other procedings.

I would conclude that unless the employer explicitly asks in a pre-employment questionaire whether you have any previous Drug Driving conviction (likewise drink driving) then I don't see how they could legally obtain such information, unless of course your name is John De Jong. Here's hoping that guy sues the stripes off the relevant officers that paraded him infront of the media.
 
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